Bookshelf or floorstanding speakers??

[wchek]

$4k is a difficult figure if that is th ebudget for the entire project if only because it puts one so close to an eschelon on speakers that is a little higher than average. Meaning, once you get done purchasing 5speaks and a sub there is very little left over for proper amplification and source.

If I had 4k and a fondness for Sonus Faber I think I would start off with the Grands and some solid two-channel amplification which could later be used off the pre-outs of a pre/pro or receiver. Just an IMO moment...

Thanks for your advise, bobsticks!

A pair of new Grand Piano Domus is already more than $4k which leaves me no budget for other equipments. What about the Concerto? What is the difference between a 2-way and 3-way speaker?

If the difference is only additional bass for a 3-way, maybe I can consider the Concerto since a sub can't be avoided for a 5.1system (my ultimate goal). But back to the question of bookshelf vs floorstander again (i.e. Concertino vs Concerto), the price difference is huge as both are 2-way speakers from the same series, even after included the original stand of the Concertino. Does the floorstander really worth the extra bucks?

[pixelthis]

Thanks for your advise, bobsticks!

A pair of new Grand Piano Domus is already more than $4k which leaves me no budget for other equipments. What about the Concerto? What is the difference between a 2-way and 3-way speaker?

If the difference is only additional bass for a 3-way, maybe I can consider the Concerto since a sub can't be avoided for a 5.1system (my ultimate goal). But back to the question of bookshelf vs floorstander again (i.e. Concertino vs Concerto), the price difference is huge as both are 2-way speakers from the same series, even after included the original stand of the Concertino. Does the floorstander really worth the extra bucks?

Why can't a sub be avoided?
Especially with floorstanders with decent bass.
I have a sub with a blown plate amp, and my fronts carry the weight quite nicely

[wchek]

Why can't a sub be avoided?
Especially with floorstanders with decent bass.
I have a sub with a blown plate amp, and my fronts carry the weight quite nicely

As far as i know a sub is to cater for the .1 channel in a 5.1 or 7.1 movie recording. Without a sub the .1 sound would be missing, hence an explosion would sound like water splash (i.e. no bass). Correct me if i'm wrong.

For 2-channel music i do agree that a sub is optional for floorstanders but a must for bookshelf speakers.

[PeruvianSkies]

Thanks for your advise, bobsticks!

A pair of new Grand Piano Domus is already more than $4k which leaves me no budget for other equipments. What about the Concerto? What is the difference between a 2-way and 3-way speaker?

If the difference is only additional bass for a 3-way, maybe I can consider the Concerto since a sub can't be avoided for a 5.1system (my ultimate goal). But back to the question of bookshelf vs floorstander again (i.e. Concertino vs Concerto), the price difference is huge as both are 2-way speakers from the same series, even after included the original stand of the Concertino. Does the floorstander really worth the extra bucks?

If it were me, I would get a great set of bookshelves and a really good subwoofer, I think with this combination you will be surprised, especially once you get the crossover to a good point, just how awesome it can be. I realized late in the game that bookshelves (in my situation at least) tend to work better for HT application, i.e. 5.1 setup, whereas floorstanders present themselves better for 2-channel needs. Maybe this is just my preference, but I am using a set of Polk Monitor 40's now for my HT room and they just blew me away with how dynamic they could be for HT use, of course I think they are a really good speaker for $300. You can do much better, especially with your budget.

[musicman1999]

As far as i know a sub is to cater for the .1 channel in a 5.1 or 7.1 movie recording. Without a sub the .1 sound would be missing, hence an explosion would sound like water splash (i.e. no bass). Correct me if i'm wrong.

For 2-channel music i do agree that a sub is optional for floorstanders but a must for bookshelf speakers.

Some pre/pro's such as my Anthem will allow you to route the bass from the LFE(.1) to the other speakers.

bill

[wchek]

Thanks for all your inputs!!

I am doing renovation in my apartment and the cableguy has already pulled a concealed audio cable to the back concrete wall for rear surround speakers. I think i have little choice now but to go the 5.1 setup then later add good pre/pro and CDP. Otherwise the concealed cable will have its ends dangling on the wall, unless i cover it with a pair of rear wall-mounted surrounds (currently looking at Wharfedale Diamond 9 DFS)

I have just got into a busy season so hardly have time for auditioning more speakers. Hope i can find some answers to the questions below...

1) Has anyone tried the SF Concertino Domus + Velodyne VX-10 + Yamaha RX-V861 combo? Any comments?
2) I heard the Concertino needs high power to drive it to its max performance. Is the RX-V861 capable for the job?
3) Does the Pure Direct function on the Yamaha receiver play only on the mains and not the sub?

Any other inputs are welcome....

[musicman1999]

I don't think you will find the Yamaha to be very good with music and the Fabers will not really open up to their full extent,but i am sure it will be okay as a stop gap until you can move on.I am not sure about the pure direct but i do not think it would let you use a sub,it would not really be direct if it did.

bill

[wchek]

I don't think you will find the Yamaha to be very good with music and the Fabers will not really open up to their full extent,but i am sure it will be okay as a stop gap until you can move on.I am not sure about the pure direct but i do not think it would let you use a sub,it would not really be direct if it did.

bill

musicman,
I think you have a point there, it would be a waste to match the Fabers with Yamaha. I am now considering to setup my system stereo first and HT later.

Now that opens up to a string of questions...
- What is the best way to spend $4k for a music system?
- If i stick to SF Concertino, any suggestion for a suitable amp?
- Is a good integrated amp better or separate pre-amp & power amp?
- Since the Concertino is bookshelf, the budget should include a decent sub. Suggestion?
- Whether it's integrated amp or pre/power amp, will there be any problem when i add a receiver later for the HT system?

Has anyone heard ProAc Reference 8?

Appreciate your comments...

[musicman1999]

I would look at Cambridge Audio 740a intergrated and 740c cd player, or the 840 series if you can swing it.Neither would cause a problem adding a reciever later.Preamp and power would likely be better but would stretch your budget out a bit.For a sub i would look for a sealed box design such as Rel,Focal or B&W,they work better for music.

bill

[jim goulding]

Hi. I'm tuning in kind of late. Floorstanders only advantage is that they provide more volume for theorectically better bass (some designers prefer using various tuning technologies to accomplish this that can't be done with stand mounted models). However, if you've decided on using a sub you won't need quite as much power to drive the satellites as you will cross them over before they need full power (to produce the lowest frequencies). I may have missed this but are you purchasing for a surround system or just left/right channels with a sub? Another sub you might consider is a $500 HSU Research. I think they may be marketed under another name of late but you can find out. I shouldn't recommend the old cylindrical enclosures but rather the newer small box. The Audio Critic measured and listened to these and reported the lowest distortion figures they ever recorded and were highly positive about their augmentation.

If you are planning on a surround system, l don't know what all in needed for your rear channels as I haven't the faintest. The SF Concerto's have a 6.5" mid/bass driver and deliver decent bass on their own. They, and all SF's use a textile dome (silk, I believe) that deliver very tactile high frequency information so you wouldn't want any high frequency bull**** any place in the chain. Think smooth sounding cables, electronics, and software.

Happy listening!

[pixelthis]

Some pre/pro's such as my Anthem will allow you to route the bass from the LFE(.1) to the other speakers.

bill

Any receiver will direct .1 sound somewhere else.
Its like the rears, if you only have three fronts, all of the sound gets "steered" to them.
You don't lose anything but the deepest bass your regular speakers can't reproduce,
and theres really not that much of it

[topspeed]

What is the best way to spend $4k for a music system?

There is no "best" way. Some, like Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn Audio firmly believe the front end is the most important because a speaker is only going to be as good as what is fed to it. Others, like Dave Wilson of Wilson Audio are convinced that speakers are easily the most important, and most discernable, difference in the audio chain. I fall into the latter group and think you should allocate at least 1/2 of your budget to speakers, more if we're talking a full 5.1 rig.

If i stick to SF Concertino, any suggestion for a suitable amp?

SF's have a reputation for being pretty easy to drive with few suprises in impedence. What sounds best with them is entirely up to you, but you'll have no shortage of choices if only because you can drive them with just about anything. SF's are so warm and laid back to begin with, it might be wise to avoid amps with a "classic tube sound."

Is a good integrated amp better or separate pre-amp & power amp?

Preamp/amp will give you more flexibility and the ability to possibly fine-tune (or screw-up) the sound, but an integrated offers the advantage of the shortest signal path without worrying about possible signal degradation from additional cabling. Which is more important to you?

Since the Concertino is bookshelf, the budget should include a decent sub.

Dayton, REL, James, Paradigm Servo, HSU, DefTech SuperCube, and Velodyne Servo's are all respected. Which one depends on your final budget. Some of these suckers can eat up 1/4 - 1/2 of your budget! For your budget, I'm thinking Dayton from partsexpress.com.

Whether it's integrated amp or pre/power amp, will there be any problem when i add a receiver later for the HT system?

No. Most integrateds these days have "theater bypass" switching which will allow you to insert the integrated into the HT rig and have it drive the mains for two channel listening. If you eventually see the rig blossoming into a HT, you might be better off just getting a Pre/Pro and simply add channels of amplification as funds become available. You'll never need a receiver (although you'll need a tuner). Start with a killer two channel rig and expand later. That's what most of us did.

Hope this helps.

[GMichael]

3) Does the Pure Direct function on the Yamaha receiver play only on the mains and not the sub?

Any other inputs are welcome....

Yes. It skips the sub. This is great for 2 channel listening, but only if you have a set of full range speakers to carry the base.
IMO, a good set-up for 50-50, music to HT listening, includes 2 main speakers that can get down to the low 30's to high 20's to carry the base. A good matching center channel for HT. And a couple of bookself speakers for 5.1. 7.1 is nice if you have a large room and you are not sitting right at the back wall.

[accastil]

It would depend on the ff considerations:
-your type of sound (bass slam would favor for floorstands)
-your type of music (rock, disco would favor for floorstands)
-your room size (if you dont plan to make use of a subwoofer)-( larger than 250sqf might be better of with floorstands.
-your application (ht would normally be better with floorstands)

i am more a bookshelf type of guy since i prefer mids and highs over bass slam, my music is mostly vocals and soft jazz, my room size is 10x18ft, and i am not into HT.

[superdougiefreshness]

I may not fully understand many things with better ended audio, but I do understand some things.

My recommendation is to get your hands on two great floor-standers and your choice of center channel only. This of course includes what you can afford for a surround processor. Thats it for your speakers and gear until you have the needed funds to add your background/surround speakers and sub. This way you have the adequate bass for movies and the center channel for voice in 2.1 and 2.0 for you two channel music.

This will carry you forward until you have a sub and back speakers, at which time you add your front end amp for front end music. This could very well carry you for some time and many people are quite satisfied with this type of set up and what I mean is 2.1 = three fronts left/right and center only. Especially with good bass producing floor standers.

The center channel is for movies mostly and back speakers are not always needed and are costly at this junction for just the movie experience.....IMHO.......

I have noticed that when watching movies that not as much information is processed by your back/surrounds as you may think...........and no matter what you spend on back speakers the movie sound is several dB's higher than regular tracked music .............add the backs and sub later dude..........when you got the dough.

later

[wchek]

Thank you for all your comments!

I am getting a bit confused with all the different types of amps mentioned here. I know i should be asking these stupid questions in the Amplifier section but for convenience sake, please allow me to post a copy here.

Can anyone help to explain :
- Is pre/pro = AV receiver = surround processor?
- Is integrated amp = pre-amp + power amp?
- How should these amps be connected from source to speaker? Are there many different configurations?
- What is the best setup (assuming money is no object) for both music & HT sharing the same pair of main speakers?

[topspeed]

Can anyone help to explain :
- Is pre/pro = AV receiver = surround processor?

A Pre/pro is a Preamp/Processor. It's the control center for a separates based rig. You plug all of your sources (cdp, phono, dvd, sat box, whatever) into a preamp and it routes what you want to listen to into the amplifier. The difference between a normal preamp and a pre/pro is that the latter contains decoding and functions for a multichannel based rig. In short, preamps are for 2 channel, pre/pro's for multi-channel (mc) or home theatre (ht).

- Is integrated amp = pre-amp + power amp?

An integrated amp is a pre-amp and amplifier in the same chassis. There is no tuner (radio), otherwise it would be called a receiver. An audio/video receiver (avr) is one with processing/decoding and multiple channels of amplification for home theatre.

- How should these amps be connected from source to speaker? Are there many different configurations?

Plenty. Sources are connected to the preamp in any number of ways. Usually, RCA's or toslink/digital are used for audio and Component, HDMI, or S-vid is used for video. Naturally, you only would use video inputs on a pre/pro or avr. You would use RCA's if you want the player to do the decoding and digital if you want the pre/pro/avr to do the decoding. It depends on which sounds better to you.

You would use speaker wire to connect the amps to the speakers. Depending on length, 12 or 14 gauge should be adequate.

- What is the best setup (assuming money is no object) for both music & HT sharing the same pair of main speakers?

You tell us. There is no best, only what is best to you. If music is your priority, audition as many speakers as you can using well recorded music and find what tickles your fancy. If a speaker can do music well, it can do HT well. However, this doesn't necessarily hold true the other way around.

Hope this helps.

[wchek]

A Pre/pro is a Preamp/Processor. It's the control center for a separates based rig. You plug all of your sources (cdp, phono, dvd, sat box, whatever) into a preamp and it routes what you want to listen to into the amplifier. The difference between a normal preamp and a pre/pro is that the latter contains decoding and functions for a multichannel based rig. In short, preamps are for 2 channel, pre/pro's for multi-channel (mc) or home theatre (ht).

Does that mean in a bookshelf & sub combo setup for music, i will need a pre/pro since it is no longer 2 channel? If i use preamp in this setup, the sound will only come out from the mains but not the sub? If i were to use a preamp for 2 channel music, a pair of floorstander mains is needed.

What type of setup is best (and cost effective) for both music and HT sharing the same speakers (bookshelf/sub combo)?
1) pre/pro only
2) pre/pro + power amp
3) pre/pro + integrated amp
4) receiver
5) receiver + power amp
6) pre/pro + preamp + power amp
7) other recommendations?

Which brand would you guys recommend? I'm thinking Rotel pre/pro, Yamaha receiver, Exposure power amp. Any comments?

[musicman1999]

For sound quality, number 2 is the pick,but may not be the most cost effective.A pre/pro and power amp do what a reciever does, only better.Have you decided for sure on two speakers only to start? If so go with the Rotel and the Exposure amp, no need for the Yamaha.I assume that the Exposure is a 2 channel amp, if so when you add more speakers you just add more channels of amplification.The Rotel will supply good stereo sound and all your HT needs when you are ready for that.Add a good disc player or two and your good to go.

bill

[wchek]

For sound quality, number 2 is the pick,but may not be the most cost effective.A pre/pro and power amp do what a reciever does, only better.Have you decided for sure on two speakers only to start? If so go with the Rotel and the Exposure amp, no need for the Yamaha.I assume that the Exposure is a 2 channel amp, if so when you add more speakers you just add more channels of amplification.The Rotel will supply good stereo sound and all your HT needs when you are ready for that.Add a good disc player or two and your good to go.

bill

I am considering the bookshelf + sub for speaker for a start. Do i need another power amp for the sub? How about a multi-channel power amp?

How about Cambridge Audio pre/pro and power amp?

[musicman1999]

No the sub has it's own amp built in.Buying a multi channel amp will mean you would not have to buy more amps later, but it depends on how you want to spend the money.A $2,000 stereo amp will sound better than a $2,000 5 channel amp. Cambridge has a 2 channel pre amp on the way along with a 2 channel amp. No pre-pro or multi channel amp is in the works yet but it would not suprise me to see it down the road.

bill

[topspeed]

A sat/sub set-up is still 2 channel. Sat/sub's are simply a different way to do speakers with the sat's handling the midband and high's and the sub handling the bass. The theory behind this is simple: Due to room interaction (especially the bass), the room location for rock solid "imaging" is rarely the ideal location for the best bass. By using a sat/sub, you can place each where they sound best. However, they are still playing stereo (2 channel) as the two sats and sub are all receiving the same signal with a crossover determining where the high and lows go.

Most subs are "active," meaning they have built-in amplifiers. You would simply run a rca (line level) plug or speaker wires (speaker level) from the pre-pro to the sub and that's it. If you run line level, the crossover will be done at the pre/pro. Speaker level will mean you use the sub's on-board crossover. What's the correct crossover point? It's more art than science, but I generally recommend finding out what your sat's minimum frequency response is and then start 10-20hz higher and adjust it until there isn't any overlap between the sats and sub. For example, say your speakers are rated 60hz-22khz (-6dB's), I'd set the x-over to 70hz or 80hz and tune downward from there. Again, this isn't written in stone. Just remember a properly calibrated sub shouldn't draw attention to itself. The music should be continuous with the bass seemingly coming from the mains.

As for recommendations, the usual suspects for "bang-for-the-buck" are Rotel, Adcom, and Parasound Halo. If you look to the used market, the options increase considerably. Amps are great "used" purchases as they have no moving parts to wear out (save valve amps) and many have transferrable warranties.

Hope this helps.

[wchek]

Thank you all for your inputs. After some research, i think my budget only allows me a "bookshelf + sub + pre/power amp + cd player" for phase 1 and "receiver + center + surround + dvd player" for phase 2, where phase 1 might be $4000 and phase 2 $2500.

For phase 1, i am thinking of the SF Concertino or ProAc Tablette Reference 8 to match with Rotel 06 series (RCD06 cd player, RC06 pre, RB06 power amp). Unfortunately the SF dealer don't have Rotel in store, so no audition. Which do you guys think is a better choice? SF or ProAc?

As for sub i am thinking REL Quake or Velodyne VX10 to go with either SF or ProAc. REL and ProAc are available in the same shop, similarly for Velodyne and SF, so i think they maybe paired this way, if i know which speaker better matches the Rotel.

I understand that both SF and ProAc are reputable speaker makers, and so is Rotel for amps. Question is, will the Rotel 06 series be sufficient to drive the SF or ProAc to their max performance?

Appreciate your feedback...

[fresco]

wcheck, Sonus faber speakers are amazing. It has the best hi-end loudspeakers designs. I even notice many other hi-end brands are copying its lute shape design and its adjustable spikes.

The new Domus grand piano is beautifull especially the piano black color but quite expensive. IMHO, I suggest you to get the Totem arro or model 1 signature + a sub. These are also very good speakers. They have a sweet and detailed sound just like the sonus faber. And the only cost $700 and $1000 used I think.

[audio amateur]

Hi there wcheck,
If you en up getting some biggies like MA's RS8 or GS60, I would forget about a sub for the time being. And about the pure direct thing, you can always parallel wire the sub(s) on to the main speakers posts.
I also believe if you set your mains to 'large' & your sub to 'off', then all the '.1' bass will be delivered to your mains.
cheers