Big Room to Small Room - Need Advice

[anamorphic96]

I recently moved out of an old ampartment I shared with friends into a very small studio. The room is pretty much 12' squared with 8' ceilings. Problem im having is my system has become a bit aggressive in the midrange and highs. The dynamic scale is sometimes a little over the top. Im contributing most of this to the amp and size of room. However I feel there might be others areas to look at as well. This is why im coming here to see what the overall view is. Im also considering treating the room but space is at a premium. A few other people I know mentioned getting a much smaller amp around 50 to 80 watts. Im not reall hip to this idea. I like the Rotel, due to its ability in large rooms and the amazing bass control and depth.

Thanks for the help.

Anamorphic

System -

Amp - Rotel RB 1080
Pre - Amp - Rotel RC 1070
CD player - NAD C541i
Speakers - Paradigm Studio 40 v.2
Speaker Cable - AQ Type 4+ BiWire
Interconnect - AMP - PRE - AQ Diamonback / CD - Tara Labs Prizm 55i

[Jimmy C]

...but try placing them "caddy-corner" if possible. This would mean you would sit in one of the corners (for best listening) while the speakers would fire diagonally on adjacent walls. This helps out a lot in small, square rooms.

A firend of mine did this with his Monitor 11s, with good results. A square room isn't the best environment for speakers, especially relatively big ones.

Again, if possible, give it a try. I think you'll notice a difference (for the better!) in sound quality.

Let us know...

[Jimmy C]

...but at first I didn't notice the speakers listed.

Doesn't matter, will work for most.

Good luck.

[dmb_fan]

If you were happy with your system in its former room, and it's too aggressive in the new smaller room, the thing that is making you unhappy--the ONLY thing that changed--is the room. Replacing your amplifier with a smaller one to solve a problem with room acoustics makes about as much sense as buying a new needle for your CD player.

Luckily, room treatments can be fairly inexpensive for rooms as small as yours. Your best bet is probably the Auralex Project 2 for $399 from sweetwater.com or musiciansfriend.com, but even the smaller Auralex Alpha 1 for $299 should offer significant improvements. If that's still too steep, they offer packs of 1' x 1' studiofoam "wedgies" for under $100. A first step might be to treat some early reflection points with the wedgies and see if it helps. Ultimately, you'll achieve the best results by treating at least 20% of your wall and ceiling space with acoustic foam.

For more information about acoustic treatments for small rooms, visit Auralex.com.

Best wishes and good luck!

-Adam

[Resident Loser]

No text

[anamorphic96]

Jimmy thanks for the advice. That was tried early on and did not seem to work out to well.

Adam you have a great point and is something I have been looking at. Thanks for the links.

The other thing I was leaning towards was possibly a mini monitor style speaker instead of the larger Paradigms I have which seem a bit big for this living space. The amp is quite large for this room at 200w per channel. I have noticed I have little play with the volume and dynamics can be over the top sometimes. Maybe me using the word harsh was not the best way to describe the sound. The speakers where not harsh at all in the other room. But space was not an issue. The speakers are more in a near field now. I sit around 8' away against the back wall on the end of a bed for now which doubles as the couch. This is why I thought of scaling down.

Thanks Again,
Glenn

[RGA]

If you were happy with your system in its former room, and it's too aggressive in the new smaller room, the thing that is making you unhappy--the ONLY thing that changed--is the room. Replacing your amplifier with a smaller one to solve a problem with room acoustics makes about as much sense as buying a new needle for your CD player.

Luckily, room treatments can be fairly inexpensive for rooms as small as yours. Your best bet is probably the Auralex Project 2 for $399 from sweetwater.com or musiciansfriend.com, but even the smaller Auralex Alpha 1 for $299 should offer significant improvements. If that's still too steep, they offer packs of 1' x 1' studiofoam "wedgies" for under $100. A first step might be to treat some early reflection points with the wedgies and see if it helps. Ultimately, you'll achieve the best results by treating at least 20% of your wall and ceiling space with acoustic foam.

For more information about acoustic treatments for small rooms, visit Auralex.com.

Best wishes and good luck!

-Adam

Thanks for that site.My main room has that slap echo effect - it's been a low priority at the moment and I've managed to postition to stay clear of these hot zones - but the Auralex might do it for me when money becomes available.

A lot of furnature can serve to eliminate the slap echo effect as well but it's more of a crap shoot. Seems like they know what they're doing over at Auralex.

[dmb_fan]

Glenn,

How long are you going to be in the 12' x 12' studio? My guess is not forever. Unless you have a whole lot of disposable income (in which case, why are you living in a 12' x12' studio?) you'd better think carefully about replacing a $1,000+ pair of speakers just to accommodate a temporary living situation. You have great speakers. You have a great amplifier. Presumably, you thought long and hard about these purchases and compared these products to others. The problem in your current situation is the room.

Do your speakers sound bad because of a preponderance of bass in your small room or a preponderance of treble? Are they boomy? Many speakers with significant low-frequency capabilities sound boomy in small rooms because the low notes they produce are amplified tremendously by standing waves.

Standing waves are defined on audiovideo101.com as:
Low frequency anomaly or distortion created when a certain frequency is reproduced whose size has some special relation to the room or object it is produced in (wavelength the same size as the room dimensions) resulting in the room or object resonating with the sound and increasing the strength of the sound (the sound wave does not diminish and may instead increase as it interacts with its surroundings).

If your speakers sound boomy, you have five options. 1) if you have tone controls, turn down the bass. 2) buy a line stage high pass filter that will cut out frequencies below 80 or 100Hz. 3) move the speakers and the listening position away from the walls to decrease bass production 4) treat the room acoustically with bass traps (some can be found at auralex.com) 5) buy smaller speakers that produce less bass. (These smaller speakers will almost certainly bum you out a year from now when you move back to a bigger pad and realize that they don't produce adequate bass the way the studio 40's did.)

If your speakers sound harsh, bright, "treble-y" then you have similar options. 1) turn down the treble 2) Wire a resistor in-line to the tweeter 3) Move the speakers closer to the walls and further away from the listening position to emphasize the bass over the treble 4) treat the room with acoustic foam 5) buy speakers with less treble output. (Again, these speakers will simply dissappoint when you move to new digs and miss the relatively flat frequency response from the studio 40's)

Lastly, and I cannot emphasize this enough, speakers and amplifiers cannot be "too big" for a room, unless you're talking about aesthetics. In terms of amplifiers, a 200 watt amplifier is no different from a 50 watt amplifier unless you turn up the volume to a point where the amps are outputting more than 50 watts per channel in which case one amp clips and the other does not. If the music is too loud, then turn it down. If it's too "dynamic" then there is nothing you can do about that. Dynamics are in the music and if you get a system that emphasizes the dynamics of the source material less, then that's because it's an inferior system. Plain and simple. No two ways about it.

In terms of speakers, the only way that they can sound "too big" for a room is if their bass output is aggravating the standing waves or other anomalies of a small room. Buying speakers with less bass output is guaranteed to dissappoint in the end. Simply treat the room or buy an in-line filter that will cut off the low frequencies. The Paradigm X-30 will do this with no audible consequences* in the higher frequencies for $130.

Anyhow, hope that helps.

-Adam

*No audible consequences to my ear. I've used one for years.

[anamorphic96]

Adam, Thanks for the suggestions. Here is where everything stands. I spoke with an old friend who used to work for Dolby Labaratories. I spoke to him about my situation and he concluded just like everyone else that its the room. He mentioned that if hes in my area again for an etended period he will bring over his RTA and analyze the room. He even suggested Auralex as well. I dug around there web site and have decided to go with one of the whole room kits. Its gonna cost me five bones but will take care of this room and help my new rooms in the future. Another thing that was mentioned was when I add a subwoofer down the line to get a parametric eq to go with the sub which will help alot with integration and getting that seamless blend that is tough to achieve sometimes. I did not realize you could get one for 100 bucks.

The equipment is staying and will not be sold. This new apartment just turned everything upside down. DOH!!!

On another note. I live in San Francisco and the rent is ridiculous here for what you get. Studios my size and slightly bigger go for 700 to 1000 if not more.

Thanks Again,
Glenn

[Woochifer]

Adam, Thanks for the suggestions. Here is where everything stands. I spoke with an old friend who used to work for Dolby Labaratories. I spoke to him about my situation and he concluded just like everyone else that its the room. He mentioned that if hes in my area again for an etended period he will bring over his RTA and analyze the room. He even suggested Auralex as well. I dug around there web site and have decided to go with one of the whole room kits. Its gonna cost me five bones but will take care of this room and help my new rooms in the future. Another thing that was mentioned was when I add a subwoofer down the line to get a parametric eq to go with the sub which will help alot with integration and getting that seamless blend that is tough to achieve sometimes. I did not realize you could get one for 100 bucks.

The equipment is staying and will not be sold. This new apartment just turned everything upside down. DOH!!!

On another note. I live in San Francisco and the rent is ridiculous here for what you get. Studios my size and slightly bigger go for 700 to 1000 if not more.

Thanks Again,
Glenn

Studio foam is a good way to go because it's very effective and typically flame resistant. That nightclub fire at the Great White concert last year spread the way it did because someone decided to save some some money by using packing foam, which is not as effective and very flammable. The only drawback with studio foam is that it's easy to overdo it and overdampen your room. But, if you're living in a typical SF apartment with the hardwood floors and high ceilings, it would take a lot before you overdo the foam applications.

An alternate approach would be to use rigid fiberglas insulation boards for sound absorption, or do what I did and mount acoustic ceiling panels along the front and back walls. (pic below) A lot of the victorian apartments in SF have picture molding beneath the ceiling line, which is ideal for suspending acoustic panels without having to drill any holes in the wall. After moving out of my apartment, my wife and I installed picture moldings in our house and use it for suspension. You don't have to worry about this yet, but acoustic panels are also less aesthetically challenged than studio foam for girlfriends and wives.

The parametric equalizer is the single best investment you can make in your audio system if you use a subwoofer. Except for the LENRD corner bass traps, Auralex studio foam is ineffective in the low frequencies. Low frequencies are most affected by positioning and acoustics, problems in the lows are more common than not, and they are the most difficult problems to overcome. When I first installed my subwoofer, the room acoustics caused major boominess, which I identified in three frequencies using test tones and a SPL meter. Installing a parametric EQ made a crucial difference, and by evening out the bass, I can set the level higher without it ringing my head when certain notes are struck. It now sounds full and extended, and it integrates much better with the mains. A Behringer Feedback Destroyer will cost you $120, Stryke's test tone CD runs $10, and a Radio Shack SPL meter costs $40. For the benefit that you get, this is a bargain. If you want to check up on some useful pointers, check the links.

The Harman white papers are an excellent introduction to room acoustics and how they affect sound quality
http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default

Sonny Parker's website on the Behringer EQ is the best setup guide on how to use that particular model for subwoofer tuning. (The Behringer is not user friendly, and this guide is very helpful)
http://www.snapbug.ws/bfd.htm

My website has a before and after graph of how the parametric EQ improved the bass response on my subwoofer.
http://members.aol.com/sfwooch/

Gallery link that shows the acoustic panel setup with my system.
http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...cat=500&page=1