B&W 703 Floorstanders

[StanleyMuso]

Methinks you sound like a religious convert who desperately tries to convince everyone his former religion is crap. I may not have your vast knowledge or experience of so many different speakers, but I just cannot agree with everything you are saying about B&W. The 703s are not the first B&Ws in the family,and I must say that I have a much better opinion of them than you do. However, I am not wedded to them for ever, and likely as not my next speakers will be something completely different. I have owned other brands in the past from different manufacturers and from different countries which I enjoyed very much. By the by, I have auditioned Wharfdales several times in the past twenty or so years, and I'm afraid I just did not like them. However, I don't preach against them, because I recognise that different people like different things, and perhaps even hear differently.

I'm just amused how emotionaly attached people can get to their choices and try to deffend them so strenuously. I say I like my 703s, but I also recognise their drawbacks and don't try to convince people that they are "the best". As I said, likely as not, my next set of speakers will be something completely different. Until then, I intend to enjoy my current setup as much as I can.

[vlastoc]

Change of CDP won't help to sound of your 703's imo. As was adviced, try to adjust or improve acoustic of your room, if this won't help, from my point of view, sell them and spend much time with auditioning of other brand's before you buy any of them.

tips: Focal Electra, Dynaudio (but, I'm not sure if they fit to your kind of music so well), Audio Phisic, Sonus Faber, Rega... and other mentioned above.

v.

[RGA]

Methinks you sound like a religious convert who desperately tries to convince everyone his former religion is crap. I may not have your vast knowledge or experience of so many different speakers, but I just cannot agree with everything you are saying about B&W. The 703s are not the first B&Ws in the family,and I must say that I have a much better opinion of them than you do. However, I am not wedded to them for ever, and likely as not my next speakers will be something completely different. I have owned other brands in the past from different manufacturers and from different countries which I enjoyed very much. By the by, I have auditioned Wharfdales several times in the past twenty or so years, and I'm afraid I just did not like them. However, I don't preach against them, because I recognise that different people like different things, and perhaps even hear differently.

I'm just amused how emotionaly attached people can get to their choices and try to deffend them so strenuously. I say I like my 703s, but I also recognise their drawbacks and don't try to convince people that they are "the best". As I said, likely as not, my next set of speakers will be something completely different. Until then, I intend to enjoy my current setup as much as I can.

I am not recommending any one brand and i don;t particularly like most of what i have heard from Wharfedale. In the past 20 years Wharfedale has had at LEAST 3 different owners. The Vanguard was and is like no other Wharfedale -- it is not a Diamond series speaker AT ALL and while I like the Diamonds for the money we're talking horns versus not horns. They came out with abysmal Modus series speakers and a long line of other stuff that did not entertain. The Vanguards I have are hardly free of weaknesses - otherwise I would not have bought something else.

The 700 series for me is a bad line in the sense that to me it is grossly overpriced for what you get...that is not a statement to advertise what I like or a comparison of what I like but a statmeent in the terms of that speaker against every speaker I have heard at the price over the last 15 years. The 705 is the WORST 2k standmount I have EVER heard. It is so unmusical that it is totally unnacceptable.

I'm not bringing Audio Note into this discussion - it has nothing to do with AN so why others bring them up I do not know. Though there is nothing laid back about the J or E. The superior dynamics require that they project a less laid back sound than the dry overly polite and restrained presentation of the 705.
But then the Quads have no pulse either so it's not a big surprise.

[StanleyMuso]

I am not recommending any one brand and i don;t particularly like most of what i have heard from Wharfedale. In the past 20 years Wharfedale has had at LEAST 3 different owners. The Vanguard was and is like no other Wharfedale -- it is not a Diamond series speaker AT ALL and while I like the Diamonds for the money we're talking horns versus not horns. They came out with abysmal Modus series speakers and a long line of other stuff that did not entertain. The Vanguards I have are hardly free of weaknesses - otherwise I would not have bought something else.

The 700 series for me is a bad line in the sense that to me it is grossly overpriced for what you get...that is not a statement to advertise what I like or a comparison of what I like but a statmeent in the terms of that speaker against every speaker I have heard at the price over the last 15 years. The 705 is the WORST 2k standmount I have EVER heard. It is so unmusical that it is totally unnacceptable.

I'm not bringing Audio Note into this discussion - it has nothing to do with AN so why others bring them up I do not know. Though there is nothing laid back about the J or E. The superior dynamics require that they project a less laid back sound than the dry overly polite and restrained presentation of the 705.
But then the Quads have no pulse either so it's not a big surprise.

to a certain extent I was playing Devil's Advocate. I do agree with you that, for what you get, the 700s and above are overpriced. I managed to get mine at 30% discount at an end of year sale, otherwise, I would not have paid full price. However, generally, don't you think that most esoteric hi-fi is overpriced? Is a Krell, or a Bryston, or a Halcro amp really worth the asking price?

[RGA]

to a certain extent I was playing Devil's Advocate. I do agree with you that, for what you get, the 700s and above are overpriced. I managed to get mine at 30% discount at an end of year sale, otherwise, I would not have paid full price. However, generally, don't you think that most esoteric hi-fi is overpriced? Is a Krell, or a Bryston, or a Halcro amp really worth the asking price?

I don;t get into price discussions too much because price is subjective in that if one speaker gives you good sound and costs say $2500.00 and the next speaker gives you a 10% improvement and costs $8,000.00 then so long as the improvement is there then it is up to you decide on the importance of that improvement. I also don't generally like % improvements because that is a meaningless term outside of an analogy on internet forums. If I can say that a Krell at $70k is better than bryston's best at 10K then it's better -- the issue of overpriced for me comes into play when you pay way more and get IMO worse or no better sound.

When i had my Sugden A48b which was 2k new but which I bought used for a few hundred and running my speakers and a very modest cd player for a grand total of at new prices of around $6k US and then listening to the Wilson Sophia Krell and levinson set-up which runs more than $50kUS closer to $60K if it was better even by 2% then I would say hey that is one heck of a premium to pay for that 2% improvement but that;s up to you. That 2% could be the difference between fatigue inducement and not and so that may be very critical. I would merely call the system overpriced because it in no way bested what I had in my home so I scratch my head and think "well it ain't about how much you spend but on the design you spend it on"

[theaudiohobby]

Though there is nothing laid back about the J or E. The superior dynamics require that they project a less laid back sound than the dry overly polite and restrained presentation of the 705.
But then the Quads have no pulse either so it's not a big surprise.

If the B&W 703 is described as "upfront", I wonder what the J or E are in relation to the 703, upfront or laidback,or is it schizophrenic , more laidback and more upfront than the 703 at the same time . By the way, a laidback speaker can have huge dynamics, different xteristics.

PS: I see that you have moved on from the Genelecs and the ELACs, to the Quads, you are doing a good job, keep up the good work .

[RGA]

If the B&W 703 is described as "upfront", I wonder what the J or E are in relation to the 703, upfront or laidback,or is it schizophrenic , more laidback and more upfront than the 703 at the same time . By the way, a laidback speaker can have huge dynamics, different xteristics.

PS: I see that you have moved on from the Genelecs and the ELACs, to the Quads, you are doing a good job, keep up the good work .

The J and E discern more differences in the recordings across the recordings I have used - who says the 703 is upfront -- bright maybe, but upfront? Though I did not get bright from them - lack of cohesion that makes the ear focus on the tweeter yes but the actual treble response is no worse than most metal tweeters with their artificial and wholly audible ringing - but B&W advertises at great length how each of their new models fixes their old models in the ringing department - which means they always admit their tweeters ring like a dinner bell and how they try to "fix it" and of course the fix is always YOU the buyer needing to pay more and more to get a half decent treble.

This poster is yet another one to add to the B&W's are overpriced and incredibly fatiguing in some manner or other and I made a big mistake getting them group. But at least he can admit it -- I can. If they are so great why don't you put your money where your mouth is sell the speakers you have and settle on the B&W N801 or N802?

If they were truly that good you'd buy them. Asking about getting rid of your Quads for another Quad is obvious -- you know they suck but you can't admit it. Your ego is paper thin.

[theaudiohobby]

Asking about getting rid of your Quads for another Quad is obvious -- you know they suck but you can't admit it. Your ego is paper thin.

Let's leave out the B&Ws for a minute.

The joke about the Quads is just about wearing thin, care to express your experience about the Quads at your dealer in detail? Following your story, sometime ago you listened to a pair of USED ESL-63s at your dealers, What was the setup? Did you ever consider that a pair of used ESL-63 might have ended up at the dealer because they were defective? When asked by LongtimeQuadowner to listen to the Quads at his place, why did you not take up the offer? He told you that he listened to the 20K AN-E at your dealer Soundhounds in all "Audio Note" super rig and came away preferring the Quads, cos they (the Quad's that is) were more open sounding and and as a result invited you on more one occasion to listen to the Quads at his place, you did not take up any of those offers yet you are content to bitterly criticize this selfsame pair of speakers that you have NEVER heard at every opportunity. You even have the audacity to make derogatory comments about other peoples opinion of this selfsame speaker that you have NEVER heard.

The same applies to the Genelec 8040 and the ELACs, as of this writing you have NEVER heard any of these speakers, yet you feel obliged at every opportunity to put your two pence worth of bitter criticism. A while back when someone asked after suitable Quad ESL alternatives, you recommended the AN-K saying it has the transparency of Quads and the dynamics of horns, how did you arrive at that opinion when you have NEVER heard the Quad ESL? The are many things I could use you to describe your behaviour and many of them are not complimentary, your behaviour sometimes borders on lunacy, I have yet to come across another person who is so desperate for validation and approval as you are and anytime you did not receive it, you seem to take leave temporary leave of your senses, describing you as a schizophrenic character is complimentary.

[Florian]

Just as a tip from me to you in all friendlyness and respect TAH but have you ever asked yourself how it is possible for one man to have such a huge amount of audio stores in his area that dont get tired of a non-purchasing person to walk in there everyday to listen to their speakers? Or how those dealers carry every speaker that is discussed on these forums with measurements and cut down remarks? Or how its possible for him to be able to supposely measure the most rarerest and most soldomly used speakers there are? I stopped reading and trying to discuss this, people are much smarter then that.

Flo

[theaudiohobby]

Just as a tip from me to you in all friendlyness and respect TAH but have you ever asked yourself how it is possible for one man to have such a huge amount of audio stores in his area that dont get tired of a non-purchasing person to walk in there everyday to listen to their speakers? Or how those dealers carry every speaker that is discussed on these forums with measurements and cut down remarks? Or how its possible for him to be able to supposely measure the most rarerest and most soldomly used speakers there are? I stopped reading and trying to discuss this, people are much smarter then that.

Flo

I agree with you Flo. , I wonder which dealer measures speakers that he sells so that he can cut them down at next opportunity or satisfy the known tire-kicker.

[StanleyMuso]

Just as a tip from me to you in all friendlyness and respect TAH but have you ever asked yourself how it is possible for one man to have such a huge amount of audio stores in his area that dont get tired of a non-purchasing person to walk in there everyday to listen to their speakers? Or how those dealers carry every speaker that is discussed on these forums with measurements and cut down remarks? Or how its possible for him to be able to supposely measure the most rarerest and most soldomly used speakers there are? I stopped reading and trying to discuss this, people are much smarter then that.

Flo

how some people, unless they are involved in the field professionaly, could possibly expose themselves to so much equipment? I have been interersted in audio since I was a child when I first tried to connect a small record player to my parents' ancient valve radio. I live in a small city and every hi-fi shop in the city now knows me. I have to restrain myself from visiting them too often out of pure ambarrasment. After all, I am not a wealthy man, and can only upgrade so often, so I don't want to impose myself on these hard working folk too much when I am only "tyre kicking". Usually, the time frame between when I first become interested in something and actually buying it is quite long, because I am a cautious fella and do a lot of consumer research, as well as auditioning. I can't help feeling guilty about wasting these good folks' time. As much as I would like to experience all that wonderful equipment around , I don't have the opportunity in terms of venues which stock them, and also time. That's why I appreciate so much the good advice from all the knowledgeable folk who are willing to share their experiences in these forums. Please keep it coming - I love to share your experiences even if I don't always agree with them. And believe me, your good advice has often opened my eyes.

[Jimmy C]

Just as a tip from me to you in all friendlyness and respect TAH but have you ever asked yourself how it is possible for one man to have such a huge amount of audio stores in his area that dont get tired of a non-purchasing person to walk in there everyday to listen to their speakers? Or how those dealers carry every speaker that is discussed on these forums with measurements and cut down remarks? Or how its possible for him to be able to supposely measure the most rarerest and most soldomly used speakers there are? I stopped reading and trying to discuss this, people are much smarter then that.

Flo

...30 posts, but this touches on something I have thought about.

The word "experience". This is why I left that line in the profile blank... experience in what? Driving yourself to a store and listening to a stereo? In that case, I have almost 30 years! That word implies one has expertise in an area... err, we don't, really. O.K., maybe SOME of us do, maybe someone actually in the field, but I think the vast majority of us simply enjoy listening to music on a better than average stereo... that's all.

I feel lucky to have 10 or 15 "high-end" stores within a 40 mile radius. There's also NYC if one feels like fighting for a parking spot, or taking mass transit. No matter how many different brands I will ever hear, I would never make assumptions about how a particular piece CAN sound. This is only because I know a speaker, for eg., can sound WILDLY different at your house vs. the store demo. The good news is it usually sounds better at home.

And the terms "bright" and "detail"... they get misused as well. I'll save that for another time :^)

Rant over, thanks!

[RGA]

Let's leave out the B&Ws for a minute.

The joke about the Quads is just about wearing thin, care to express your experience about the Quads at your dealer in detail? Following your story, sometime ago you listened to a pair of USED ESL-63s at your dealers, What was the setup? Did you ever consider that a pair of used ESL-63 might have ended up at the dealer because they were defective? When asked by LongtimeQuadowner to listen to the Quads at his place, why did you not take up the offer? He told you that he listened to the 20K AN-E at your dealer Soundhounds in all "Audio Note" super rig and came away preferring the Quads, cos they (the Quad's that is) were more open sounding and and as a result invited you on more one occasion to listen to the Quads at his place, you did not take up any of those offers yet you are content to bitterly criticize this selfsame pair of speakers that you have NEVER heard at every opportunity. You even have the audacity to make derogatory comments about other peoples opinion of this selfsame speaker that you have NEVER heard.

The same applies to the Genelec 8040 and the ELACs, as of this writing you have NEVER heard any of these speakers, yet you feel obliged at every opportunity to put your two pence worth of bitter criticism. A while back when someone asked after suitable Quad ESL alternatives, you recommended the AN-K saying it has the transparency of Quads and the dynamics of horns, how did you arrive at that opinion when you have NEVER heard the Quad ESL? The are many things I could use you to describe your behaviour and many of them are not complimentary, your behaviour sometimes borders on lunacy, I have yet to come across another person who is so desperate for validation and approval as you are and anytime you did not receive it, you seem to take leave temporary leave of your senses, describing you as a schizophrenic character is complimentary.

I never said anything bad about the sound of either Elac or Genelec -- we were discussing measured response at that time and the measured response didn't impress me and I and others explained why -- that does not at all mean that I won;t like them if I heard them in person.

As for the ESl 63 I said that i would give them another try and I accepted longtimeQuadowners invite but he started making excuses about moving to a new place and that the system would not be as good as it could be - well most systesm are in rooms that are not perfect but a big part of a decent speaker is to sound good in less than ideal rooms and set-ups -- The AN E after all in blind listening sessions at Hi-fi choice is placed in BAD position in a room that is very poor for that speaker and it still outperformed much of the competition enough for them to buy them. So in a less than ideal set-up I expect and DEMAND that rooms not be held as an excuse for lousy sound. Commercial Electronics does nto sell used speakers that are defective - the equipment was SS (Bryston and Arcam was on the shelf). The room was roughly 19 X 17 with an open hall on one side - this is also where I heard proac's big floorstander several months later (which was vastly better).

I would gladly listen to Longtime quad owners 57 - but JNR had the 57 stacked for 30 years and went to the AN E with no regrets. The 57 I'm told has less bass than the 63 which already has very little -- so with regards to longtimequadonwer I would really like to have both speakers in the same room at the same time.

In fact if you would like to make a friendly wager we could run an independant preference based blind listening session with the Quad (any model) any amplifier versus just say AN J/Spe/OTO/3.1 one boxed player. If you're willing I may be able to get the services of 20 Professionally trained Jazz musicians to attend an all day listening session - two equal rooms of your choosing in one of the local hotels here. It would run about $500.00Cad to get the listeners - being students paying them $30.00 each to spend a day listening to tunes they may bite. An additional $100.00 for lunch for them. I'd certainly go in half on this. I would be willing to bet that no less that 80% would choose the AN set-up. With your engineering degree you surely could set-up the room and speakers better than me. I can only afford one hotel for one day so it would only give me a couple hours to set up the room -- you can have as much time as you need and I will allow you to use any room treatment or graphic EQ you wish - I get to use neither and can only earball the sound.

We will use the same music in both rooms that run the entire gambit classical to triphop dance etc. Listeners at the end of the day fill in the card as to which room they liked better and why. Both rooms systems will be darkened out so no one can see the gear and both rooms will be played to the same volume level based off a 1khz test tione at a distance of 6-8 feet - say 75db - 85. Simple. I can provide further details if I get some interest on your end. There is no way to PROVE a subjective experience but with professionally trained independant musicians it's sure more credible than OWNERS of the set-ups in question.

[Florian]

If you're willing I may be able to get the services of 20 Professionally trained Jazz musicians to attend an all day listening session - two equal rooms of your choosing in one of the local hotels here. It would run about $500.00Cad to get the listeners - being students paying them $30.00 each to spend a day listening to tunes they may bite. An additional $100.00 for lunch for them. I'd certainly go in half on this. I would be willing to bet that no less that 80% would choose the AN set-up.

I would accept that in a second if i were in the US or Canada. Run the Quads with a all Silvaweld setup and play life instruments from either MA Recordings or first pressings of the Matthaeus Passion from Phillips. I know the J and it wont stand a chance in acurate reproduction against the quad.

Just my humble opinion.

[RGA]

Confusion?

I have three main dealers I have purchased from - how is that tire kicking? Some dealers are willing to spend the time because they are interested in music reproduction -- Soundhounds is the only one I know of in BC. Commercial Electronics on Burrard street is probably the biggest dealer in Western Canada and is a two division shop catering to pros and consumers. Getting a Quad is relatively rare I should guuess and that is likely why it would be so interesting to check out. I knwo two Commercial Electronics people fairly well - they have a staff of about 50 or more. The salesman I knew well left and now runs his own shop and is a rare dealer that is out to make the customer happy and not sell you something unless he's sure you will like it. Rare indeed. And he left as their top selling B&O rep. he never had to lie -- he would tell the B&O buyer that it's not the best sounding but it looks good. (I overheard him)

The other fellow is the C.E. purchasing Agent so I also have some knowledge of how grossly overpriced certain things happen to be. As for panels they do sell Martin Logan. The ML Odyssey and Prodigy. (I purchased about $5k worth of gear from)

The other dealer, Hi-fi Center, I have purchased the 302, Senn 600, Arcam Delta 290 from off the top of my head. So no tire kicking there..

And Soundhounds most of the rest.

I also typically avoid weekends when I go so it's not like they're busy. Soundhounds is a 3.5 hour return trip for me so it expected that I will spend more than 10 minutes in there. I call or e-mail ahead of time. They treat customers the way all other dealers SHOULD treat them but often don't. hell when I go down there they are the ones who say you gotta try this or that and start lugging stuff around for me to listen to (and not just AN btw). And when you're moving around B&W 800 Diamonds and 70lb amps and Maggies then that's quite impressive compared to some dealers who grown about moving a Totem model 1.

My experience with gear is not as varied as some imply. I have not heard eveyr speaker from eveyr line. My largest listening experience line of that which I do not own is B&W and Paradigm when it comes to hours on them and model numbers from them heard...more so than my Wharfedales.

I have heard "certain" models from many others over the years with a great variation in set-up and time spent with them -- it usually does not take me long to figure out which side of the fence the speaker or system will fall for me. Where possible I will listen in the nearfield to alleviate room boundry issues and I won't concentrate a great deal at all on bass because that often requires more of the room. The AN K I took home despite its bass being a bit boomy in the showroom. A problem that is and can be a function of positioning room acoustics. Had it been any other dealer I would have been more distrustful but given the other's speakers far mroe serious problems which cannot ever be fixed by a room or positioning it was not hard.

When I go to Soundhounds I spend pretty much the entire day's operating hours there. They have customers who come a few days a week to talk try out new things and tweak whatever gadget they have and mostly to listen to some music. They were even generous enough to allow me to go with their sales staff and fly down to the CES in Vegas. Soundhounds has a lot of gear but they have also gotten rid of a lot of gear just over the last 5 years I have know that store -- they also bring in speakers for customers who are CURIOUS about the competition. For instance one customer like the AX two better than anything they carried but was curious about Epos -- Soundhounds bought the Epos to compare side by side for the customer knwoing how hard it is to hear the speakers in the SAME location in the same room with the same or complimentary gear. This epos purchase nullifies any profit he would get on the AX Two because he's now stuck with a one off speaker he has to sell as used. The thinking is that that customer may have more money one day and when one day comes they'll come back.

That is how I had gotten access to the Epos and after listening side by side -- Soundhounds won't be picking up Epos.

Other audiophile customers who don't post on the net are a great source of information as well.

I would like to comment on many others like the Klispch reference but I have only heard one model set-up well -- the rest are in a local London Drugs with terrible acoustics and terrible equipment running it side by side with all the other Klipsch and Jamo speakers. I avoid talking about such speakers as much as possible because all i can say is model A sounded better than B in this awful room with crap equipment so who cares? Model b could very well sound better than A in a normal decent room properly positiioned.

Dealer showrooms are generally well set-up. -- Soundhounds big open room is not condusive to optimal placement and both the AN E/Sec Silver and the B&W N801 (until they replaced it for the E/Sec) sounded very good. No corners, and the speaker no where near a wall is actually as bad a position as the E/Sec can possibly put in any room -- and yet it was mistaken for live music. The N801 this room would be ideal ten fett from any side wall - 5 feet from the back wall and at least 20 foot ceiling.

[theaudiohobby]

I never said anything bad about the sound of either Elac or Genelec -- we were discussing measured response at that time and the measured response didn't impress me and I and others explained why -- that does not at all mean that I won;t like them if I heard them in person.

As for the ESl 63 I said that i would give them another try and I accepted longtimeQuadowners invite but he started making excuses -- SNIP

I would gladly listen to Longtime quad owners 57 - but JNR had the 57 stacked for 30 years and went to the AN E with no regrets. The 57 I'm told has less bass than the 63 which already has very little -- so with regards to longtimequadonwer I would really like to have both speakers in the same room at the same time.

In fact if you would like to make a friendly wager -SNIP.

First off, The wager is pointless as the logistics are totally off, I live in London, UK and you live British Columbia, Canada. It is not going happen.

It tickles me when you talk about measurements, why? Because you have demonstrated and time and again that you do not understand how to read them, the most glaring howler being your inability to tell an in-room corrected FR plot from an aneichoic one. Also Audio Note hardly has any speaker measurements published anywhere, so you commenting on any speaker based on measurements is a bit of a joke. I will spare your blushes and not pull your old posts, but most of your remarks about the ELACs were not based on any measurements whatsoever.

On Jnr, he did NOT own a pair of stacked Quads for 30 years. Neither does he give any details of his system when he owned them as the stacked Quads were long gone by the Audio Notes arrived, and in the intervening period he tried several other speakers. Moreso, from his own account he did not get optimal sound out of the ESLs either. Even so, He got rid of the stacked Quads when got married due to space limitations not poor sound quality.

Thirty-one years of trying to fine a satisfying speaker The first speakers I owned were stacked Advents then I heard a pair of quad 57s and I had to have them. So for a few years I tried to fine something better that would also give me volume and bass. I purchased a second pair and stacked them. I tried without success to add a sub.

Then I got married and we moved and there was no place for the monoliths so I begin down the line of mini monitors.I tried Spenders, Rogers, Clestions, Spicas, and some others that I don?t remember

The except above clearly reveals that you have grossly misinterpreted Jnr's comments, However, the cruz of matter is the still that you persistly make comments on speakers that you have NOT heard. Needless to say your experience with Quads is very limited, so please refrain from commenting on them. And as a matter of courtesy, try to be more measured in comments about speakers you have not personally heard.

By the way I thought I will point in you in direction of some of JNR recent comments on CDPs

I own a sony 777es with the VSEI levan 4.5 mod and most of the Kern mods. For over a year I listen to Audio Note Dacs four or five days a week. If you are asking about one of the players I would pass, though I have not heard the new player, I don't think it is out yet. Starting with the 2 balanced dac on up(if you use their best transport) there is something about the ANs that certain people fall in love with and love above all other digital. Personaly I like SACDs better and am thank with the VSEI mods they better the AN DACs but I have good friends who would dissagree with me.

Guess the name of one of my current SACDPs..,While at it, check out my amplifier. Forget the wager, the logistics are unrealistic, I wonder why you suggested it , but note that there is more than one way to good sound.

Your comments about showroom listening I will bite another day...