Axiom-Is the hype to be believed?

[HighFlyer]

Hi. I am a newbie to stereo and audio components (first post) but have read a lot in this site and am impressed with all the knowledge and helpful posts out there.

I live up in Canada and have been searching for a speaker system to go with my Denon avr 1403 receiver. Some of the obvious choices I'm looking at (Canadian so better priced) Energy, Paradigm and Axiom.
Can't believe the amazing reviews the Axiom brand gets in this site. Fundamentally should one not hear the speakers they purchase and not go on reviews (Axiom has no retailers or factory sound room). Are these reviews to be believed? Perhaps I am a little skeptical by nature...any comments out there?
My room is only 11 x 17 with 8 foot ceilings. Looking for a 5.1 system and I would describe myself as a 50/50 music vs. HT listener.
Thanks.

[Geoffcin]

Hi Flyer! (couldn't resist)

Welcome to the AR boards. While your guaranteed to get a lot of different opinions here about speakers, or just about anything else for that matter, anyone who's heard Axioms will probably give them a thumbs up. I've only heard the little M2i's and was thoroughly impressed. Probably the only reason I didn't choose Axiom for my HT setup what the fact that I got such a great deal on my main CSW T500's, and wanted to stick with all Cambridge Soundworks speakers. The Axioms have a more forward sound than the CSW speakers too. CSW uses Silk domes, as opposed to titanium for the Axiom. Axioms are just a bit brighter and in your face, as opposed to more laid back for the CSW speakers.

[skeptic]

Are these reviews to be believed? Perhaps I am a little skeptical by nature...any comments out there?

I'm also "skeptic(al)" by nature. I think you SHOULD listen to speakers before buying them. You have to live with them for a long time unless you can afford to constantly trade. Usually that is an expensive strategy in the long run but some people do it. Often these kinds of sellers will allow you an in home trial period with various refund policies. You may have to pay for shipping one or both ways if you don't like your purchase. Perhaps these types of arrangements can be negotiated with some sellers. It's very risky to buy this type of equipment on the kinds of reviews you'd get at this site anyway. You don't even know if the reviewers are shills for the seller. Buyer beware!

[HighFlyer]

"Shills for the seller"...yes has me concerned as well. I also noticed that Axiom has an affiliate progam that you will receive 5% towards their products of the sales referrals attributed to you. In addition, a lot of the sites that review the Axiom systems have banners advertising the Axiom product...this site is no exception.

I have enjoyed roadbiker review as an avid cyclist and certainly know that not all reviewers are "shills" but nonetheless at least with my bike purchases I could test the product myself.

As a newbie I don't/can't really appreciate the terms "bright" and "muddy" yet as I have no reference base.

[skeptic]

Whether you listen to speakers in your own home or in a store here is some advice and traps you should be aware of.

If two speakers play at different loudness, the louder of the two will usually seem to sound better on initial comparison. Audio stores have tricks for setting up speakers and choosing recordings to make the ones they want to sell sound better. Small changes in positioning or acoustics can make a big change in sound. Some dealers will tell you that certain speakers have to be broken in to sound good. This is very controversial. If you believe it, be certain you can bring back a pair that don't break in sounding like what you heard at the store. Speakers which present amplifiers with difficult electrical loads will be demonstrated with very high quality expensive amplifiers or receivers. The results with your equipment may be different. Don't get tricked into believing that wires will make a big difference. Even among serious advocates of special audiophile wires, they will frankly admit that the differences at best are subtle.

My advice is to become very familiar with unamplified live music of the type you listen to most by attending as many live concerts as you can. Classical music is best, jazz is OK. Muscial genres such as rock or pop are always gimmicked at the studio and do not represent actual live sound. Get the best recordings of the type of live music you are familiar with and use that for critical listening to judge the attributes and shortcomings of different speakers. Speakers may sound initially impressive because of some special characteristic such as a punchy midrange, shrill high frequencies or exaggerated bass but experienced listeners know that this type of distortion become irritating with time. The equipment that gives the most satisfaction over an extended time usually is the most accurate models.

[HighFlyer]

I'm starting to realize I've got way more learning to do. I think you are absolutely right about online retailers figuring you will not return their product and the fact that some don't even have a listening room has me very skeptical.
Pat D. expressed some concern about my Denon avr 1403 which is a 5.1 ch receiver but at the low end of the spectrum. How will this effect my speaker choices. Most of the retailers I spoke to thought my receiver was more than adequate.
RGA I checked out Hi-Fi Choice and thank you for the suggestion. They don't have many Canadian products listed so I am figuring I'll be paying more just to get it here in this country. As I am somewhat limited in my budget ($2,000-2,500 Canadian) I'd like to maximize my dollar value. I think your suggestion of the Energy C3's may be the right direction. Your comment about metal drivers, is that in response to Axiom?

One point of interest is that Axiom has won several awards for their products.So I'm not sure their product would be considered of poor quality. Are their bogus reviewers ou there? I checked out audioaholics and they reviewed the M22ti favourably (apparently they are unbiased as well).

Lots to research, thanks kindly to all for your time and efforts. GB

[TinHere]

I'm starting to realize I've got way more learning to do. I think you are absolutely right about online retailers figuring you will not return their product and the fact that some don't even have a listening room has me very skeptical. GB

Don't dismiss internet only companies too quick. Whatever speakers you buy you will be paying shipping one way or another. For the risk of the price to ship they give you an opportunity to hear their products in the only place that matters, your home with your gear. The successful online companies are able to deliver a better product for less money than their competition by virtue of the fact that they are not concerned with middle man mark-up. If you can get an online speaker system for $2000 that can compete with a system in a b&m retailer that costs $3500 [conservative est] and it costs $250 to ship which is the better buy? Add to that the fact that many people have reported positive experiences [ie they REALLY liked them compared to others they heard], and the gamble you take isn't as great as the rewards it can reap. This business model can only survive if they deliver better bang for the buck. Nowhere does bad news from disappointed consumers travel quicker than on the internet.

Do your research and make your choices, but don't think that the people who report positively about online companies are looking for people to share their misery. It's quite the other way around. Happy hunting.

[RGA]

I'
One point of interest is that Axiom has won several awards for their products.So I'm not sure their product would be considered of poor quality. Are their bogus reviewers ou there? I checked out audioaholics and they reviewed the M22ti favourably (apparently they are unbiased as well).

Lots to research, thanks kindly to all for your time and efforts. GB

The Ford Focus won many awards too...read the 2004 Lemon aid used car guide about the car and about the value of awards.

Sony puts out movies. Not long ago Sony was caught because there was a reviewer who was giving great reviews to new movies under the Sony conglomorate...someone did some checking and the film critic didn't exist...it was Sony marketing who invented the critic and the glorious reviews. Why would you presume that a magazine is any different. Who own Road and Track? Who owns Sound and Vision - or who FUNDS them?

I am not a big fan of budget home theater systems because to me it's like an all-in one printer...soes it all and nothing well. I have a printer because I don't much care about the quality of photos, or speed or scanning. But no serious photographer would print a picture off the Lexmark 1150 and no serious business would want this as a printer, copier etc. But hey it was cheap does it all and saves space...I knew thi going in and it fits the bill and lives up to my expectations of it.

Receivers are identical same thing in audio but most consumers don't know of their limitations. Which usually starts with the anaemic power supplies. But again denon for the money is probably decent but it simply isn't going to do everything...You knew that of course because there is the 5803.

Hi Fi CHoice doesn't get a lot of Canadian or American gear...hmmm. Why not presume to make a few guesses as to why not.

The Energy C3 for example got 3 stars in What Hi-Fi with the warning that the speaker will likely become fatiguing on longer listening. 3 out of 5 is not a bad rating by the way they are simply cautioning the buyer to make sure you get a longer listen because the sound can be a bit edgy and once that happens you are likely to stop listening to them and become dissatisfied. Look at the Canadian reviews of the Canadian speaker and they seem like the best speakers ever made for the money right...or was that the Canadian Axiom or the Canadian Paradigm...heck the same magazine says it about ALL of them...hmmmm.

If the only thing I ever take out of University History courses is to not take media at face-value then my experience there is well worth it long run.

I say it again, there are magazines and reviewers I like more than others Hi fi CHoice, UHF I tend to prefer...that still doesn't mean I agree with them any more than another reviewer...indeed, I disagree with both. For instance Hi Fi Choice gave the B&W CM2 5 stars and the CDM 1NT 4. I personally feel they should be flipped(and stars are dangerous rating guide). But, it's not like one is total crap and they blew it - just a difference of opinion. But it shows me that if I'm spending the money...that reviews are not a gaurantee.

And if you read the reviews closer of even some of the well reviewed speakers you may come across the terms about the treble region as a bit "hot, emphasized, not quite refined, slightly excessive, forward etc" all mean that there is a very REAL chance the speaker is going to be an irritating mess.

And MOST speakers with metal tweeters those are the typical adjectives associated.

There is no guarantee a soft dome will be any better they can be bright too...all I'm saying is make sure YOU listen to them and make sure the treble response is not JUST giving you a pyrotechnics show for home theater. Lots of speakers are built with competion in mind...so like Skeptic said, some speakers exagerrate the frequency extremes to STAND out from the others...the speaker sounds "cool" but after a half hour they become irritating. Short term A/B tests will of course favour the exagerated speaker the brighter speaker the bassier sounding(even if exagerrated) than the more realistic speaker.

And unfortunately MOST speaker makers have built speakers for home theater consumers where a lilt in the treble is desirable. The mega corporations change wht they say is important for measuring so their speakers look impressive on the graph. Just be careful and long listening with all recording including lesser recording is a good idea.

A good speaker will make rock and classical sound good...otherwise it's a bad speaker.

[Pat D]

I'm starting to realize I've got way more learning to do. I think you are absolutely right about online retailers figuring you will not return their product and the fact that some don't even have a listening room has me very skeptical.

Pat D. expressed some concern about my Denon avr 1403 which is a 5.1 ch receiver but at the low end of the spectrum. How will this effect my speaker choices. Most of the retailers I spoke to thought my receiver was more than adequate.

RGA I checked out Hi-Fi Choice and thank you for the suggestion. They don't have many Canadian products listed so I am figuring I'll be paying more just to get it here in this country. As I am somewhat limited in my budget ($2,000-2,500 Canadian) I'd like to maximize my dollar value. I think your suggestion of the Energy C3's may be the right direction. Your comment about metal drivers, is that in response to Axiom?

One point of interest is that Axiom has won several awards for their products.So I'm not sure their product would be considered of poor quality. Are their bogus reviewers ou there? I checked out audioaholics and they reviewed the M22ti favourably (apparently they are unbiased as well).

Lots to research, thanks kindly to all for your time and efforts. GB

Well, it may well be that your receiver is perfectly adequate even with reasonably insensitive speakers. I don't know your listening habits. In any case, it is good methodology to try out speakers in your listening room using your equipment before having to buy them. That way you can find out for sure. But remember, a 3 dB increase in sensitivity for the speakers has the same effect as doubling your amplifier's power, so I would still tend to suggest looking at reasonably sensitive speakers.

On line sellers pretty well have to offer a good return policy. But as someone pointed out, they cut out the middle man and so you save there. I don't know what the shipping cost is, But in any case, Axiom speakers do have a good reputation.

RGA seems to be one of those people who thinks that metal dome tweeters are BAD. This is like an urban myth in audiophile land, probably based on the metaphor of metal being 'hard' so the sound must be 'hard,' which is really the fallacy of equivocation. But as far as I'm concerned, some of the smoothest speakers I've ever heard had metal dome tweeters. It isn't the particular design style that is important (within reason, of course) but the implementation. If a speaker sounds bad, it won't do just to lay the blame on metal dome tweeters.

Audioholics is as unbiased as any, though I do wish they had a better set of measurements. Anyway, they do have a lot of useful information on their site. It's a good site.

[RGA]

Speakers may sound initially impressive because of some special characteristic such as a punchy midrange, shrill high frequencies or exaggerated bass but experienced listeners know that this type of distortion become irritating with time. The equipment that gives the most satisfaction over an extended time usually is the most accurate models.

It had to happen sooner or later...but I actually agree with you here.

[skeptic]

It had to happen sooner or later...but I actually agree with you here.

Normally I would congratulate you on finally getting something right but I am reminded that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[agtpunx40]

I've never heard the axioms myself, but they do have a return policy that says if you don't like them you can return them within thirty days. They have free shipping, but you'd have to pay return shipping to return them. Might be worth it.

[HighFlyer]

Thanks, I was aware of that. Return shipping could be big bucks. GB

[Geoffcin]

>As a newbie I don't/can't really appreciate the terms "bright" and "muddy" yet as I have no reference base.<

Bright would seen to have a more pronounced treble as opposed to midrange response. Bright is not always a bad thing. My maggies are considered "bright" by some audiophiles, and there's even an optional resistor to put into the crossover to tone down the tweeters responce. (although I would never use it) Unfortunately bright has gotten a bad name, as a lot of cheap gear is unseemly bright, and that what we would call "etched," or in the worse case "tinny."

The Axioms are NOT like this, they are just brighter than my CSW speakers. (so are my maggies) I happen to LIKE bright speakers. (perhaps I should have bought the Axioms)?

Muddy anyone can understand, and it's something you NEVER want in your speaker response. It's characterized by uncontrolled distorted bass. Usually only low end speakers have an overall muddy bass, although I've heard some very good speakers that got muddy when they were asked for more SPL than they were capably of. Actually, almost all woofers start to distort at an amazingly low SPL, rising up to 10%-30% distortion or more as you start to get near their limits.

I think trying out the speakers in your home is WORTH the extra $$$ if you have to ship them back.

[RGA]

Make sure you listen to a speaker first...it may also be the case the speaker is so bad no store would want to carry them...why not consider that possibility.

I like the reviews by Hi Fi Choice because they have aa panel of reviewers and listen blind level matched. So, there is no price, name brand and price bias. What Hi-fi also listens in a panel and they review directly against several of the competitors side by side...something most of us don't get to do as one dealer will carry 3 brands another dealer carries 3 nd another etc so we don't listen with the same gear in the same room...which is not really a fair method of listening and evaluating. And even the more subjective reviews with technical arguments don't ever get the measured result to match the subjective(which means the measured result is not telling you everything you need to know...but at least it fills the page and is another feel-good re-enforcer to your bias that you're buying the right speaker). It may sound atrocious but the graph says it's the right speaker so when in doubt ignore what you hear. And it works because a lot of abysmal speakers get sold over and over year in and year out.

I have nothing against what Axiom is doing. They sell you the speaker knowing most people will never send it back no matter what. But they ensure you listen in your own home and will change the positioning to suit your needs and they probably sound ok maybe great maybe not. But it's better than selling in the Wall-O-speakers against competitors - after all competition is a bad thing becaue you might go home with a Polk and not an Axiom. Axiom assures you go home with their speaker...and they know once there it's highly unlikely you'll return them. And most people don't have other speakers in their home. So it will undoubtedly sound bette than comptitors in a store's bad room with wall-O-Speakers so you can say that your Axiom sounds better than anything and everything else. Smart business sense...Magnepan does the same as does nOhr and a whole bunch of others.

No matter how well reviewed and what the leading measurements say...there is no gauarantee you'll like the speaker. I would lean to the B&W 303 in this price range...I have not heard everything but it gets well reviewed by the subjective reviewers and did the best in the BLIND listening panel. Though it is a bit of an older speaker and it may have been surpassed and I'm not overly enthusiastic about its brighter leaning tweeter. The Energy C3 is a few hundred Canadian more and is pretty good as well. I would try for a more natural sounding speaker that integrateds the overall sound smoothly by closely matching the drive units. That means a tweeter and a woofer that have a similar sonic signature. It's one thing for a paper woofer to create a flatter response and a metal tweeter to create a flatter response...it's another for them to provide an integrated sound or mesh together seamlessly. I have yet to hear METAL drivers sound natural and integrate properly with the other drivers. Your mileage may vary.

[Pat D]

Hi. I am a newbie to stereo and audio components (first post) but have read a lot in this site and am impressed with all the knowledge and helpful posts out there.

I live up in Canada and have been searching for a speaker system to go with my Denon avr 1403 receiver. Some of the obvious choices I'm looking at (Canadian so better priced) Energy, Paradigm and Axiom.
Can't believe the amazing reviews the Axiom brand gets in this site. Fundamentally should one not hear the speakers they purchase and not go on reviews (Axiom has no retailers or factory sound room). Are these reviews to be believed? Perhaps I am a little skeptical by nature...any comments out there?
My room is only 11 x 17 with 8 foot ceilings. Looking for a 5.1 system and I would describe myself as a 50/50 music vs. HT listener.
Thanks.

The ads from Paradigm, Energy, PSB, and just about anyone else do it to. But that doesn't mean they don't make good speakers. I haven't heard an Axiom speaker for a good many years, but the ones I did hear way back then were pretty good as I recall.

I'd look for moderately sensitive speakers (often somewhat incorrectly called efficient speakers) as your room is actually a good size and you have one of Denon's smaller receivers. The smaller Axiom speakers seem to be relatively insensitive--nothing unreasonable, mind you. They also generally measure pretty well. Check them out here:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/speakermeasurements/

You can return Axiom speakers if you don't like them--perhaps you should find out how much that costs. But of course you should listen to speakers before being finally committed, and listen to them at home. You're the one that has to live with them. But consider that there is some time and money spent in getting to and listening to speakers in a showroom, too. What sort of return policies do the local dealers have?

[Feanor]

...Can't believe the amazing reviews the Axiom brand gets in this site. ..

Amateur review such as the typical Audio Review review, (I'm not speaking of the forums where mainly people are extremely knowledgable), are mainly of value with repect to reliability and vendor support. The majority of review contributors don't have the experience to evaluate sound, especially in the context of different room environments or equipment combinations.

Try reading several professional review and look for common themes. Pay particular attention to comments regarding suitability of the type of music you prefer and room placement.

I will never again buy a speaker again without having heard it in my listening environment. If I can't have a free, no commitments loan from the vendor, then I must get a full return priviledge.

[RGA]

Amateur review such as the typical Audio Review review, (I'm not speaking of the forums where mainly people are extremely knowledgable), are mainly of value with repect to reliability and vendor support. The majority of review contributors don't have the experience to evaluate sound, especially in the context of different room environments or equipment combinations.

Try reading several professional review and look for common themes. Pay particular attention to comments regarding suitability of the type of music you prefer and room placement.

I will never again buy a speaker again without having heard it in my listening environment. If I can't have a free, no commitments loan from the vendor, then I must get a full return priviledge.

Feaner...you're correct. If a dealer won't allow you a full home audition then they have something to hide...a bad product in most cases.

One thing I liked about Soundhounds, my dealer in Victoria, wa shte first time I went in there and was talking to them they offerred tl let me take home a whole system. By all means take 4 or 5 speaker cables home try em out for a few weeks...Speakers etc no problem. They actually prefer you do that because they don't like people coming back unhappy because the box is opened and they can't sell it as new anymore. Basically tha's a hassle. Far better to letyou try it out...if you're happy then you're less likely to return it...if you do who cares it was a demo model anyway.

So when they don't want to let you try it at home, what am i to think? Is it crap? Maybe.

[3db]

Feaner...you're correct. If a dealer won't allow you a full home audition then they have something to hide...a bad product in most cases.
.

So when they don't want to let you try it at home, what am i to think? Is it crap? Maybe.

But thats not Axiom's policy. They have a money back return policy

[RGA]

But thats not Axiom's policy. They have a money back return policy

Who is talking about Axiom?

[RGA]

But thats not Axiom's policy. They have a money back return policy

Just a note though...you are still stck with shipping them back, duty charges, shipping charges etc. Depending what you order for them this could run you well in excess of $100.00. I can go to a dealer and take four sets of speakers home several amps and cd players and try out the combo I like for free(well Gas).

[3db]

I've auditioned some axiom speakers about 3 years ago while hunting for a sub. Although I wasn't impressed with their subs, I was impressed with there center channels and thei towers. I heard the MTi60s and 80s and I truly was impressed with their soundsatging capabiltiy and attention to details. I personally find them highly enjoyable and non tiring.

I just wish the mags would review more of PSB lines .

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equi...om_epic_60.htm

[epg]

Highflyer; a friend of mine bought the Axiom M22 speakers last year, and I heard them 1 time an didn't want to hear them again. I thought that they sounded BRIGHT almost brittle sounding. He had them in use as back speakers in his HT setup. In this context they sounded ok, but I wouldn't use them in any other application. As an aside, I would look at a kit speaker offered by www.partsexpress.com. They are BR-1 and are only 136.00 for a pair. Everything I have read about them seems be positive. You might think about a couple of sets of these instead of the Axioms.

Recently on a different BB - Madisound.com - I saw a posting stating that this guy had 2 sets of M22's and he was willing to give up 1 set of these speakers to a cross over designer who could help fix the cross-overs in the set of speakers he was going to keep. Like others, he thought that speakers were a little over the top tweeter wise.

Another Cyclist

[Woochifer]

Hype is always an issue when you're dealing with online-only brands. Compared to other purchases, speakers are by far the most subjective component in most audio systems. And as such, I personally cannot ever just blindly buy a set of speakers based on what I read about it. Reviews and recommendations to me are helpful for shortlisting a set of speakers that I should try out.

Incessant hype about online-only speakers is nothing new. People who are fanboys of speakers available at retail just have to tell people they want to convince to go find a local dealer and listen for themselves. Those who want to hype online speaker have a much steeper job of convincing to do since those speakers cannot be heard without actually buying them, and as such, sometimes ratchet up the rhetoric to ridiculous extremes.

What you're observing with the Axioms is basically the flavor-on-the-month. A couple of years ago, you would see one thread after another hyping nOhr and Swan Diva. Now, it's all about the Onix Rockets and Axioms. I have no doubt that to some people, they are a perfect match and a great value. But, my speaker preferences are my own and not necessarily shared by others. What someone regards as a great speaker, I might consider a colossal bore/ripoff. It's just much easier and economical timewise for me to go to my local dealers, do some comparisons, borrow the ones I'm most interested and make my final decisions based on home comparisons.

As RGA mentioned, those money-back guarantees DO NOT include the cost of shipping. Depending on the weight, you could be talking about $80 or more for two-way shipping costs. If you're auditioning more than one set of speakers, those costs can add up in a hurry.

With all that said, online speakers can represent a great value if they deliver what you're looking for. I bought my subwoofer online (the Adire Rava) and it was a great decision for me. But, with a subwoofer, the audible differences are more difficult to discern than with mains, and I was looking for a sealed design. At that time, I couldn't find any options for under $800, so I felt it was worth the gamble (plus, I loaded the dice by using a parametric equalizer with the subwoofer). And that's really what it comes down to. If you feel that the chances of a particular online speaker meeting your needs is pretty good, then the cost/trouble that it entails might be worthwhile.

[TinHere]

Incessant hype about online-only speakers is nothing new. People who are fanboys of speakers available at retail just have to tell people they want to convince to go find a local dealer and listen for themselves. Those who want to hype online speaker have a much steeper job of convincing to do since those speakers cannot be heard without actually buying them, and as such, sometimes ratchet up the rhetoric to ridiculous extremes.

What you're observing with the Axioms is basically the flavor-on-the-month. A couple of years ago, you would see one thread after another hyping nOhr and Swan Diva. Now, it's all about the Onix Rockets and Axioms. I have no doubt that to some people, they are a perfect match and a great value. But, my speaker preferences are my own and not necessarily shared by others. What someone regards as a great speaker, I might consider a colossal bore/ripoff. It's just much easier and economical timewise for me to go to my local dealers, do some comparisons, borrow the ones I'm most interested and make my final decisions based on home comparisons.

What you have to remember about all the "hype" is that many of the "hypers" have run the gamut of speaker auditions [not me] and are simply trying to pass on what they found to be the case. Do you have any experience with online speakers that are discussed other than your positive experience with Adaire? When you recommend Adaire is it because you like to hype, or because you think you did very well for price/performance with that company? Besides price/performance people dealing with a number of online only companies state that they never/rarely enjoyed the level of customer service they offer. These companies are growing because they are delivering on their promises. They are delivering goods at a price that b&m stores can't compete with. IMHO they offer the best values people can find in todays marketplace. The return rates are small not because people don't want to spend the price of shipping them back, but because people feel they got what they hoped for and then some in a lot of cases. Once a person can define the kind of sound they like if they do their research they should be able to find an online company to satisfy their tastes. Many of these companies are past the point of being risky, and are just a good way to maximize one's budget. If it's true is it still hype?