Anything else I should audition?

[wgriel]

Hello all,

I'm new here, and pretty new to the audio world. By way of introduction, I live in Victoria BC -- home of RGA's fav dealer I have only been interested in audio for about a year and half. That's when we bought a new house and I thought that it was time I got something better than computer speakers for sound.

Anyway, knowing nothing about this I bought a budget system consisting of a pair of Paradigm Phantoms, a Denon receiver (DRA395) and a Denon CD changer. And I absolutely loved it! I later added a pair of B&W DM600's for the kitchen - I've got an extremely open floor plan, so adding a small pair of speakers has really helped to fill the main living space with music.

Now, I'm starting to think I'd like to upgrade the Phantoms - I've been reading almost every review I can find (and finding most of them pretty useless) and listening to what I can.

So far I've auditioned Paradigm Studio 40's and B&W 603's, and I have to say that while I liked both, my preference was for the 603's. I know that B&W is getting slagged alot on this forum, but I really loved the sound and the looks of the 603's.

Oh, and looks do count as these speakers sit in a living room and I've got to make some concessions to the wife. I am next going to audition something from Boston Acoustics, probably the VR2 or VR3, but I'm not too sure what else I should listen to. Any suggestions?

Incidently, I wholeheartedly agree with RGA regarding Soundhounds - they are a class act (in fact, I just got back from there where I listened to a number of my CDs, and I've rarely had the pleasure of dealing with a business that is so helpful and accomodating).

Thanks for any thoughts or ideas,

Bill

[calegrant]

You picked a good shop to visit. I also use them exclusively, and you'll never be disapointed with their service. I've bought my 600's, 604's and ASW 750 from them without any problems. Regardless of what people may say about B&W, the 600 series offers excellent sound at a great price. I haven't heard much from boston acoustics so I'm not much help, this was just a rant about you going to the best shop around.

[Florian]

Well i dont know your budget and definetly dont know what to recommend for a few hundred bucks for a box but here goes a killer speaker with very stylish looks and very good sound. The Gallo Ref. 3

[wgriel]

You picked a good shop to visit. I also use them exclusively, and you'll never be disapointed with their service. I've bought my 600's, 604's and ASW 750 from them without any problems. Regardless of what people may say about B&W, the 600 series offers excellent sound at a great price. I haven't heard much from boston acoustics so I'm not much help, this was just a rant about you going to the best shop around.

Hey calegrant,

thanks for the reply. How do you like the 604's? I am interested in them as well, though they may be too big for my living room.

Bill

[Woochifer]

There are so many speakers out there, and the only way to narrow things down is to just listen to them. The Paradigm Phantom is an entry level tower speaker. In general, tower speakers in the sub-$1,000 price range have a lot of compromises in their imaging properties and resonance emanating from the cabinet. In general, bookshelf speakers perform a lot better in those aspects, but at the expense of less bass. And if looks are a concern, it's easier to integrate smaller speakers into the decor than larger ones.

Soundhounds has a pretty extensive speaker lineup, ranging from planars to high efficiency box speakers (e.g. those Audio Notes that you might have read about in some of RGA's posts). You might want to give those alternative approaches a listen. In general, I find the appeal of planars somewhat limited because they are much more at home with acoustic instruments than with amplified pop music. Conversely, the speakers that work for me might not register with others.

Before anyone can suggest speakers to listen to, you need to tell us the budget and what kind of sound you're looking for. The B&W 600 series is probably their best regarded line-up because it delivers a very well balanced sound and holds its own in a very competitive price point. B&W catches a lot of flak because they're popular and their speakers are available everywhere (which means that a lot of people have heard them); it's easier for people to be critical of speakers that they've actually heard. Lately, their 700 series has been getting a lot of criticism.. The more appropriate Paradigm comparisons for the DM603 are actually the Monitor 7/9 and the Studio 60 because those are floorstanding models rather than a tall standmount like the 40.

Also, on-wall speakers are currently the fastest growing market segment. They're designed to integrate with the look of flat-screen TVs. They don't sound as good as decent bookshelf models, but they got the design aspect locked down, which is why they have grown popular.

[Florian]

I find the appeal of planars somewhat limited because they are much more at home with acoustic instruments than with amplified pop music.

Please only make such statments when you can back up that all planars, which are literally almost a hundred makers cannot do this. There are some small planars that wont do this, but most of them can and will do a much better job on it then those Paradigms you love and much much more.

As a huge member on this forum i would certainly expect of you that you do have the knowledge and expertise with those so called "planars" that you can make such bold statments.

Kind regards

Florian

[Woochifer]

Please only make such statments when you can back up that all planars, which are literally almost a hundred makers cannot do this. There are some small planars that wont do this, but most of them can and will do a much better job on it then those Paradigms you love and much much more.

As a huge member on this forum i would certainly expect of you that you do have the knowledge and expertise with those so called "planars" that you can make such bold statments.

Kind regards

Florian

Okay, so my statement applies to THE PLANARS THAT I'VE HEARD over the years. I've yet to find one that does as good a job with amplified instrumentation as it does with acoustic ones. That includes Magnepan, Quad, Acoustat, Carver, Innersound, Martin Logan, and Apogee (the Duetta and Full Range) as well. I've heard them, and never felt compelled to buy any of them. Why? Because they don't fit my listening preferences!

I'm not telling anyone not to listen to planars, quite the contrary, I encourage people to try them out for themselves. Note that before that quote, I said "You might want to give those alternative approaches a listen." And afterwards, I said "Conversely, the speakers that work for me might not register with others." What's so objectionable about telling someone to explore different speaker designs for themselves? I guess pulling a quote out of context is more convenient to suit your strawman argument than considering the totality of what I was actually saying.

So, given that you're calling me out for making a blanket statement about planars, I assume that you've NEVER made any blanket statements about box speakers? I guess you've never heard that caveat about throwing stones while living in a glass house, eh?

[Florian]

I assume that you've NEVER made any blanket statements about box speakers?

Well Mr.W, you are forgeting that you and others have called on me many times for making bold statments about box speakers before and you are now taking a defensive aproach on my calling it out on you? Please, consider the past before making such a statment. Personally i can add a touch and say that i would rather own no speakers then to listen to Beethovens 9th on anything like a Paradigm or B&W box.

Your implies that the and i quote

That includes Magnepan, Quad, Acoustat, Carver, Innersound, Martin Logan, and Apogee (the Duetta and Full Range) as well.

have not done it for you are very simplistic. Considering that the Martin Logan Statment E2 and the Prodigy will easily outperform anything Paradigm makes in the speed, bass, tonal acuracy area. What Magnepans have you heard? Whats your experience with Innersounds or the Apogees? Do you own one or even had one in your home? If you had i can tell you that it wont work, definetly not with your electronics or room.

It amuses me to read your comments and your defensive side once in a while, especially since you and some other favour a good review once in a while but tend to ignore the once you dont like, such as the reports that never complain about the sonic reproduction of POP, Rock etc,... music reproduced by the planar technology.

What do you mean by it, the electrostaic or the magnetostatic aproach? Or maybe the hybrid models? What electronics where used? How was the room and what recordings did you use?

Dont make such bold statments and please stop emberrasing yourself infront of the people who own the Soundlab U1, the big Apogees and the Martin Logan Prodigy which some of us own on audioreview because they all know that they have no problem with the acurate reproduction of the this type of music. You should not put down a technology which has existed over the many years and comes in such a vast amount of models and from such a huge amount of packages.

Regards

Florian

PS: For the final touch

What's so objectionable about telling someone to explore different speaker designs for themselves? I guess pulling a quote out of context is more convenient to suit your strawman argument than considering the totality of what I was actually saying.

There is nothing wrong with that, and i have nothing against you. But i dont consider your short experiences with these types of speakers to be worth a "BOLD" statment like that. There is absolutly no way that you can make such a statment unless you have heard them in your home. Considering your electronics and love for Home Theater you can hardly make this statment. The experience is far too short!

[Florian]

I guess what i am after is this, do you think that your current Paradigm system will do more justice to Pop music then the "planars" ?

[Woochifer]

Well Mr.W, you are forgeting that you and others have called on me many times for making bold statments about box speakers before and you are now taking a defensive aproach on my calling it out on you? Please, consider the past before making such a statment. Personally i can add a touch and say that i would rather own no speakers then to listen to Beethovens 9th on anything like a Paradigm or B&W box.

Yeah, and why did we call you out? Because you were making blanket statements a helluva lot more reckless and broad than the one that I made. If this is your little petty way of saying gotcha. Consider me caught this time. I should have phrased it differently, and readily admit to that. There, does that make you feel better?

have not done it for you are very simplistic.

Simplistic, but factual considering that these are my opinions that you're questioning.

Considering that the Martin Logan Statment E2 and the Prodigy will easily outperform anything Paradigm makes in the speed, bass, tonal acuracy area.

In Florian's opinion, and at a totally different price point.

BTW, which Paradigms have you actually heard? Kinda presumptuous unless you've actually heard EVERYTHING that Paradigm makes. (from the Stylus and Cinema models all the way up to the Signature S8)

What Magnepans have you heard?

The 1.6 and the 3.6, along with previous models from 20 years ago

Whats your experience with Innersounds or the Apogees?

Had a calibrated demo of the Eros (along with the integrated amps and crossover units) with Innersound's designer. Very impressive demo of an acoustic performance with the best bass integration that I've heard from a hybrid design, but audible flaws and exaggerations in the highs that I picked up on.

We've gone over my listenings with the Apogees repeatedly. Look it up yourself if you need a refresher.

Do you own one or even had one in your home?

If I've never heard a planar speaker that I would want to own, why would I have already owned one?

It amuses me to read your comments and your defensive side once in a while, especially since you and some other favour a good review once in a while but tend to ignore the once you dont like, such as the reports that never complain about the sonic reproduction of POP, Rock etc,... music reproduced by the planar technology.

And those reports are meaningless to me because I form my opinions based on my own listenings and preferences, not on second-hand protestations to the contrary.

Dont make such bold statments and please stop emberrasing yourself infront of the people who own the Soundlab U1, the big Apogees and the Martin Logan Prodigy which some of us own on audioreview because they all know that they have no problem with the acurate reproduction of the this type of music. You should not put down a technology which has existed over the many years and comes in such a vast amount of models and from such a huge amount of packages.

The only one embarassing himself is you with your self-obsessed proclamations, out-of-context argumentativeness, and holier-than-thou attitude. Like I said, I'm commenting on the ones that I've heard for myself, and opining based on my listening preferences. If you can't accept that or if you're interpreting my statements as a putdown (I've praised how planars sound with acoustic instruments repeatedly over the years, so I don't know why you're throwing a temper tantrum over one sentence out of context), then you got nothing to blame but your own closed-mindedness.

[RICKY009]

i auditioned, actually purchased a pair of martinlogan ASCENT'S. i only had them for a week or so before the woofer in one of the speakers went out. i suspected, and confirmed, with martinlogan, that the cone woofer was the weak link in the speaker. they also have a 4 ohm impedance, which means you are going to require a relatively high current amp. at least 100 wpc from a good amp/integrated amp or a very very good receiver, like SONY, PIONEER, OUTLAW, ETC.

[RICKY009]

i neglected to state that i was using a BRYSTON 4B ST POWER AMP, RATED AT 250 WPC @ 8 OHMS, AND 400 WPC @ 4 OHMS. I DID CRANK THEM, SO I PROBABLY BLEW THE WOOFER. THE ELECTROSTAT panel used in the martinlogans are superb.

[wgriel]

There are so many speakers out there, and the only way to narrow things down is to just listen to them. The Paradigm Phantom is an entry level tower speaker. In general, tower speakers in the sub-$1,000 price range have a lot of compromises in their imaging properties and resonance emanating from the cabinet. In general, bookshelf speakers perform a lot better in those aspects, but at the expense of less bass. And if looks are a concern, it's easier to integrate smaller speakers into the decor than larger ones.

Hey Woochifer,
thanks for the response. I do think you are right about the bookshelves vs floorstanders at that price threshold. Having said that, floorstanders work much better in this space. Also, I don't regret my purchase of the phantoms for a second - they were very a very appropriate speaker for my first purchase despite the compromises. I honestly couldn't detect any until I got the upgrade bug and started listening to other speakers.

I'm not going to get rid of them either - I've got another space that I'll move them to, more on that later...

Before anyone can suggest speakers to listen to, you need to tell us the budget and what kind of sound you're looking for.

You're right, I left out a lot of important details. I suppose I hinted at my budget based on what I've listened to, but generally, I'd prefer to stay under about $2000.00 Canadian. My music tastes are primarily Jazz and Blues, though I do like to listen to some classic rock from time to time.

As I've already said, I think that I can fit floorstanders in here better than bookshelves - I don't think the wife would care for stands...oh, and I'm strictly doing 2 channel listening here - I am going to put together a budget home theatre based on the phantoms. HT is not a big priority with us, but I can pretty cheaply build around the phantoms and have something that is at least more convincing than the TV speakers.

The B&W 600 series is probably their best regarded line-up because it delivers a very well balanced sound and holds its own in a very competitive price point. B&W catches a lot of flak because they're popular and their speakers are available everywhere (which means that a lot of people have heard them); it's easier for people to be critical of speakers that they've actually heard. Lately, their 700 series has been getting a lot of criticism.. The more appropriate Paradigm comparisons for the DM603 are actually the Monitor 7/9 and the Studio 60 because those are floorstanding models rather than a tall standmount like the 40.

You are right - I compared those two because at the time they were priced almost identically.

Also, on-wall speakers are currently the fastest growing market segment. They're designed to integrate with the look of flat-screen TVs. They don't sound as good as decent bookshelf models, but they got the design aspect locked down, which is why they have grown popular.

I can see why, but they don't interest me at all for this application.

Thanks again for your input,

Bill

[calegrant]

I love my 604's. I considered the 603's, but I have my gear in a 40x36 foot room so the extra power fills it much nicer. For an average living room, the 603's paired up with a good sub will be more than enough bass. I don't advise dropping to the 602 5's though, the midrange in the 603's really helps alot.

[wgriel]

I love my 604's. I considered the 603's, but I have my gear in a 40x36 foot room so the extra power fills it much nicer. For an average living room, the 603's paired up with a good sub will be more than enough bass. I don't advise dropping to the 602 5's though, the midrange in the 603's really helps alot.

Wow - you've got a big space! I do think the 603's would be enough for my space, especially because I've got some 600's mounted in the kitchen. I did enquire about the 602.5's, but the staff at Soundhounds were pretty convinced that it wouldn't be enough for my space.

Anyway, I'm going to listen to some more speakers before I make a purchase. The 603's have impressed me the most, but I'm not in any kind of hurry to spend my money.

Bill

[Woochifer]

You're right, I left out a lot of important details. I suppose I hinted at my budget based on what I've listened to, but generally, I'd prefer to stay under about $2000.00 Canadian. My music tastes are primarily Jazz and Blues, though I do like to listen to some classic rock from time to time.

As I've already said, I think that I can fit floorstanders in here better than bookshelves - I don't think the wife would care for stands...oh, and I'm strictly doing 2 channel listening here - I am going to put together a budget home theatre based on the phantoms. HT is not a big priority with us, but I can pretty cheaply build around the phantoms and have something that is at least more convincing than the TV speakers.

That might explain why you liked the B&Ws. In general, Paradigm voices their speakers more aggressively than B&W does, and while they are very good with acoustic sources (the v.3 Studio series in particular is an exceptionally neutral speaker in its price range), their strongsuit is with rock, alternative, hip hop, electronica, and home theater sources. B&W tends to favor overall balance in the 600 series, and that does lend itself well to the music that you like to listen to. Obviously, other Canadian speakers such as PSB, Energy, and Mirage might give you more bang for the buck compared to imports, so at least give them a listen.

You might want to look at the Magnepan 1.6 and the Vandersteen 2ce. Those speakers sound very different from each other, and from the Paradigms and B&Ws. Both speaker lines aren't for everybody, but they have some very vocal proponents. I know that Soundhounds carries Magnepan, while you might need to venture into the Seattle area to find a Vandersteen dealer because I know that they only distribute in Canada to Ontario. The Magnepan 1.6 and 3.6 impressed me with acoustic music, so they are definitely worth listening to. Just make sure that you bring along some classic rock CDs to see if they work for you in that genre. IMO, they were not as impressive with those sources and with home theater.

The Vandys were very enigmatic speakers, and more so than any other speaker out there, people's opinions about them are generally split down the middle -- either love 'em or hate 'em. They imaged exceptionally well, but had a bizarre tonal balance overall. Vandersteen proponents will argue that they are the most accurate speakers on the market (I know of at least three very good audio reviewers who use the Vandersteen 5a as their reference speaker) because of the attention paid to the time and phase correctness. I generally found the Vandys very perplexing, but I know some very good listeners who swear by them.

[wgriel]

That might explain why you liked the B&Ws. In general, Paradigm voices their speakers more aggressively than B&W does, and while they are very good with acoustic sources (the v.3 Studio series in particular is an exceptionally neutral speaker in its price range), their strongsuit is with rock, alternative, hip hop, electronica, and home theater sources. B&W tends to favor overall balance in the 600 series, and that does lend itself well to the music that you like to listen to.

Yeah, that makes sense - I want to emphasize that in no way did I dislike the Paradigms - but it seemed a bit more forward than the B&W 603. I can totally understand someone loving the sound of the Studios, and I could happily live with them. But for the music I like the 600 series just seemed a bit more appropriate.

Maybe it's just because I'm fairly new at this, but what I can't understand is how so many people on these forums can be so derisive of any of these competently designed speakers. To me, everything I've listened to has sounded good, but some simply sound better than others. But reading some comments, you'd think listening to some of these speakers is a cruel form of torture! Do people really loathe the sounds of some of these speakers or is this just a childish way to justify their choices?

Ah well, maybe I'm just not discriminating enough, but I kind of like it that way

Obviously, other Canadian speakers such as PSB, Energy, and Mirage might give you more bang for the buck compared to imports, so at least give them a listen.

Good suggestions - I know there is a PSB dealer in town, and Energy can be found in a few places. I will give the Maggies a listen as well - I doubt that they'd fit the decor very well, but it won't hurt me to at least hear what they're all about.

Thanks again for your helpful suggestions

Bill

[Woochifer]

Yeah, that makes sense - I want to emphasize that in no way did I dislike the Paradigms - but it seemed a bit more forward than the B&W 603. I can totally understand someone loving the sound of the Studios, and I could happily live with them. But for the music I like the 600 series just seemed a bit more appropriate.

That's how it is once you get beyond the entry level stuff. Every speaker, even high end reference models, will have flaws of some kind. Once you get into the higher end stuff, the flaws will generally reduce in magnitude, but every speaker takes a somewhat different approach in how its voiced and designed. Sifting through them and identifying the ones that make your music come to life is all part of the hobby.

Maybe it's just because I'm fairly new at this, but what I can't understand is how so many people on these forums can be so derisive of any of these competently designed speakers. To me, everything I've listened to has sounded good, but some simply sound better than others. But reading some comments, you'd think listening to some of these speakers is a cruel form of torture! Do people really loathe the sounds of some of these speakers or is this just a childish way to justify their choices?

In no other hobby I can think of, aside from maybe wine tasting, are relatively narrow differences between products magnified to such an exaggerated extreme. All you have to do is read the magnitude of change sometimes ascribed to cables costing thousands of dollars to get an idea of how far this can go. With speakers, you got a lot of self-described audiophiles who have their preferences and favorites, and feel the need to prop their own choices up by taking everything else down. There are plenty of speakers that I don't care much for, but if someone else feels that they are the last word in realism and musicality, I don't take any issue with that. If you like B&W better, that does not equate to Paradigm being bad. But, there are people that post on forums like this one who will basically trash anything that doesn't fit their narrow preferences.

Unlike 20 or so years ago where bad speakers were easy to find, nowadays you won't find nearly as many specialty speakers that are grossly inaccurate or horrible sounding. You'll get people who try to convince otherwise, but in general with a brand like Paradigm or B&W, you're starting from a pretty good baseline. Where you go from that baseline is up to you. You already found something that you like, so now it's just a matter of whether you find something else that you like even better. And that's the part of the hobby that can be both good and bad -- the constant quest for the next upgrade.

[Duds]

the speakers i recently purchased, the Von Schweikert VR1. I am extremely happy with the sound i get from them, and they are beautiful to look at as well. I have the African Hazelwood finish, and i think a few others on this bord do as well.

[wgriel]

the speakers i recently purchased, the Von Schweikert VR1. I am extremely happy with the sound i get from them, and they are beautiful to look at as well. I have the African Hazelwood finish, and i think a few others on this bord do as well.

Hi Duds,

thanks for the recommendation - those are beautiful finishes! I don't know if I can get them in my area, but if I find a dealer I'll give them a listen.

Bill

[Duds]

Hey Bill

I'm assuming you checked them out on the VS website, trust me, the finish is much much better looking in person!! The dealer I got mine may be willing to ship a set to you for an audition. I know when I got mine he allowed me a 30 day trial period, and if I didnt like them I could return them for full refund. If you want, send me a private message and i'll give you the name of the dealer.

I also listened to B&W and Paradigm before my purchase. I liked the Studio 20's and also liked the 602s3's and even the 601s3's. I dont think you can go worng with any of them, they all have their own strengths, but only you can decide which ones sound better to you.

Good luck!

Hi Duds,

thanks for the recommendation - those are beautiful finishes! I don't know if I can get them in my area, but if I find a dealer I'll give them a listen.

Bill

[RICKY009]

Von Shweikert Loudspeakers Are Very Very Good. Good Shopping And Good Choice

[wmloving]

Bill,

Just bought a pair of 2CE Sigs last weekend. Tried to love the B&W's for 5 years, but they did not have the full range of sound I was looking for; just not balanced. I think the reason they sound so bright is that there's not the bass response to balance them out. If the speaker only reproduces sound to 45Hz, you just won't be able to hear bass regardless of what cables, etc. you have. Thought about doing a subwoofer to fix this, but didn't want to go that way.

The Vandersteens have low end down around 30Hz (still missing 10 Hz if you ask me) and are incredibly well balanced and transparent. There are adjustments to mid and treble on the back of the speaker. I have not needed them so far, but the speakers are not really broken in yet.

I'm using these with 125 watts of clean power into 8 ohms and some entry level "audiophile" gear. The music sounds so much better than it ever did with the B&W's. It's just right. I haven't played them really loud yet, but I can't imagine they are going to sound bad unless I crank it to the clipping point.

I have a large room (den/kitchen combo) with 9 foot ceilings and they fill the room with detailed sound and warm accurate bass. They remind me of listening to Magnepans or Martin Logans, but with more bass and less transparency. A nice tradeoff if you ask me. Especially for the price. These can be had, including the stands, for a reasonable discount.

Hope you find something you like!

[Florian]

Finally someone with ears who actually listens! Gratulations on your purchase!

[wgriel]

I have a large room (den/kitchen combo) with 9 foot ceilings and they fill the room with detailed sound and warm accurate bass. They remind me of listening to Magnepans or Martin Logans, but with more bass and less transparency. A nice tradeoff if you ask me. Especially for the price. These can be had, including the stands, for a reasonable discount.

Hope you find something you like!

Thanks for the recommendation - I actually do have a room kind of like that. It's a large living room, but opens up to a dining room, then on to the kitchen. I've got bookshelves in the kitchen (B&W DM600's) and the sound is fine there, but I do want something more refined than the Paradigm Phantoms that I've currently got in the living room.

I don't know if there are any Vandersteen dealers anywhere near me, but I'll investigate that.

Bill