Advice about speakers

[theaudiohobby]

RGA

As a long time B&W fan, lover, supporter, owner, and nearly Nautilus series owner I am well aware of what B&W can do and what the AN line-up can do.

No worries Soundhounds keep the 800 series around because they know what the AN E can't do

[RGA]

Yes the B&W can indeed play louder, and they look quite sexy to boot. I wonder why every single person working there decided to have the uglier AN E in their home - oh yeah because they sound better to everyone who walks into the store and compares them!

And that is why I want people to listen for themsleves in a direct comparison - unlike you I am not afraid to let the people themselves decide on the matter.

All those ex B&W owners selling and trading for Audio Note E's and gee I know no one who went the other way. And all those reviewers who have heard all those B&W's over the years and yet so many more of them bought Audio Note - a tiny company - and so few go to B&W.

25hz flat in room at over 105db in a 25 X 25 room is more than enough for anyone who values their long term hearing and covers in full piano and bass. And um for $7k for the AN E versus $22k for the B&W D800 - I can buy two high powered subwoofers for $15,000 (the difference) that will hit 5hz at 130+decibals that will destroy the D800.

So do we trust TAH - a person who claims to own a speaker but can;t proivide a serial number for verification and his observations about listening to speakers or do we trust all the reviewers who have heard or owned B&W and bought Audio Note. Is TAH a member of the B&W team - worried about the economy while AN can't keep up with orders?

Granted I don't trust every reviewer but Art Dudley of Stereophile (who by the way owns them now). Granted the competition but still...

"the sound of the electric bass was deep, full, and strong, with believable timbre and excellent clarity of attack. The Es were also excellent in their sense of sheer impact, as in the percussion on that album's "Heart of Gold""

"Throughout their time here I was consistently impressed by how loudly the Audio Notes could play, and by how utterly big they could sound when doing so with orchestral music. There was something of a disconnect, seeing those not-terribly-large speakers with their 1" tweeters in front of me, yet hearing them make flutes sound like real instruments moving reasonable amounts of air, and not like precise little images in some audio nerd's fantasy-ass "soundstage." The crescendo at the end of János Starker and Antal Dorati's recording of Dvorák's Cello Concerto (a recent and brilliant Speakers Corner LP reissue of Mercury SR90303) showed that off especially well—as did Ruggiero Ricci and Ølvin Fjelstadt's wonderful recording of the Sibelius Violin Concerto, also on a Speakers Corner LP (Decca SXL 2077). Also on orchestral music, the overall spatial quality of the Audio Note AN-E Lexus Signatures was closer than usual to the way I hear things in the concert hall."

"I used the Audio Note AN-E Lexus Signatures to play David Grier's I've Got the House to Myself (CD, Dreadnought 0201), and skipped to the Civil War–era fiddle tune "The Girl I Left Behind Me." Eight or so bars in, my attention was completely captured by how real the performance sounded—not in the Quad sense of heightened neutrality, transparency, and spatial precision (fine though those things are!), but real in the sense that the notes started, flowed, and stopped in a manner that was eerily convincing, for hi-fi. It was also dynamic as all get-out."

The Audio Notes are on a different plane altogether: easy, adaptable, and, in the best sense, mostly invisible. That they manage all that while being compatible with the very-low-power amps that some of us love is a heck of a thing.

It's joined the Lowther horns and Quad electrostats as one of the very few speakers I know I could live with and love, indefinitely."

Hmm no B&W's - they look nicer and they play louder. Oh yeah that's right this about music reproduction not looks, marketing, and being loudest.

[theaudiohobby]

25hz flat in room at over 105db in a 25 X 25 room

In your dreams @50Hz the speaker is off >9dB off its midrange peak, corner loading can only lift the bass so much.

Granted I don't trust every reviewer but Art Dudley of Stereophile (who by the way owns them now

And other reviewers who do not own Audio Note are not to be trusted At least Mr. Dudley is consistent. The Audio Note E is in good company with a Lowther Horn and a Quad ESL 989. sharing common features namely a thin lower midrange/upper bass and varying degrees of upper midrange/LF treble emphasis I bet they are always revealing of what is on the recording. Funny that

[RGA]

From a real actual competing speaker designer!

"Peter, I think that Donald North has nuked my theory. As far as I can tell the theoretical maximum gain from corner placement is indeed 18 dB because the energy reflected off the floor and walls (or directed by the floor and walls) is in-phase with the rear-firing port's output.
Simply put, I was wrong.

I apologize for saying that your speakers cannot do what you claim they can even with corner loading. I gave you a hard time about it and you took it like a gentleman.

I guess that different people are convinced by different kinds of evidence, and as long as I had the mistaken conviction that 9 dB was the theoretical maximum gain from corner placement I wasn't going to believe your claimed in-room measurements bass extension. Now I have no solid basis for disputing your claim of -6 dB at 17 Hz with corner loading.

Ah, there's my dessert now. Yum."

Art Dudley is wrong (Stereophile)
Constantine Soo is wrong (Dagogo) http://dagogo.com/Events/2008RMAF/Coverage-I.html
Martin Colloms is wrong (Hi-Fi News, Stereophile, Hi-Fi Choice, Hi-Fi Critic) Stereophile technical advisor
B&W designers are wrong (they like the AN E more than the D800 and they made the D800 - LOL
SEAS designers are wrong
Richard Austen is wrong (Dagogo)
Paul Messenger is Wrong (Hi-Fi Choice)
Steven Rochlin is Wrong (enjoythemusic)
Bob Neil (Positive Feedback magazine)
Chris Redmond (dagogo)
the best sound of the show (6 moons) http://sixmoons.com/industryfeatures...83/vsac_2.html
Jack Roberts is wrong (dagogo)
Peter Van Wellinsward is wrong (speaker designer, Stereophile technical advisor)

Please - I am happy you like the B&W model _____ - enjoy it for many years.

[theaudiohobby]

Just one post earlier, you said

Granted I don't trust every reviewer but Art Dudley of Stereophile (who by the way owns them now). Granted the competition but still...

Yet you've just reference almost every single reviewer that you know that has favourably reviewed Audio Notes in the press : It is "kitchen sink" throwing time, eh? Reviewers are only to be trusted when they recommend Audio Note then .

Duke said "theoretical maximum gain from corner placement is indeed 18 dB" you cannot get that in a real room and certainly not for over such a wide bandwidth. Look at the blue curve below (measured in Art's listening room), as expected corner loading does not do much for the lower midrange and upper bass which is down about 6dB from the reference point and the exaggerated upper midrange is there in all its glory.



There is no getting away from it loverboy, the E is one lean, bass challenged speaker. And I daresay that's probably one of its major selling points with domestic customers as its lack of mid and upper bass energy means that many room resonances in that region will be benign. downside, certain types of music will sound thin and bright through these boxes and any piece whose foundation is set in the bass will sound lifeless.

[Feanor]

Just one post earlier, you said

Yet you've just reference almost every single reviewer that you know that has favourably reviewed Audio Notes in the press : It is "kitchen sink" throwing time, eh? Reviewers are only to be trusted when they recommend Audio Note then .

...

Some say it's impolite to discuss religion. Audio Note is religion with RGA.

[RGA]

The Red Trace in your graph of Harbeth shows similar measured response in certain areas indicating room induced issues - that said it is a fair assessment in commentary by John Atkinson -

That is a perfectly acceptable criticism of the loudspeaker - it's not one I share but hearing much of what he loves in a technical sense it's fair. Let's not be inclined to think that the speakers are perfect transducers or that AN is the holy grail for all listeners.

Is the AN E a perfect measuring loudspeaker? Nope. Are they the least coloured speaker? Nope. Are they the loudest speaker? Nope. Are they most powerful bass speaker? Nope. Are they the best looking speaker? Nope. Are they best speaker for sound staging? Nope. Are they best speakers for Imaging? Nope. Is Audio Note for someone who loves the sound of B&W? Nope.

Is Audio Note a company for someone who views audio as a hobby - a resounding "definitely NOT!!!!." I am now completely sure of that.

I'm not going to try and convince you of the qualities of the AN E - for that is a dubious task since I know you're opinion of Peter Qvortrup and AN before you claimed to audition a product.

Art basically sums it up:

The latest version of the Audio Note AN-E/SPe HE offers the kind of performance that simply must be heard to be understood: more music than sound. Like its stablemates, the AN-E/SPe HE is not the sort of audio product that prompts its new owner to pull special record after special record off the shelves just to hear the bass depth on this one, the imaging specificity on that. Rather, the SPe HE is the sort of thing that will compel you to play every record you own, all the way through, without interruption—arguably because it does a better job than most of really connecting the listener with the dramatic, intellectual, and emotional intensities captured in every groove. I can't recommend it strongly enough.—Art Dudley http://www.stereophile.com/standloud...an/index5.html

In the end I can't argue with the measurements since they are what they are. I hear it like Art hears it and numerous others hear it - not sure what you want from me TAH. I listened and to me the AN E sounds a helluva lot better than any B&W I have heard. The E moves me emotionally, the E has the ability to bring tears to my eyes. they make my toes tap and want me to sing along and get up and dance - B&W makes me want to turn them off. And looking at some graphs just doesn't change what I hear. No they are hardly "perfect" loudspeakers but for me they play their weaknesses very well to my ears.

So if you want the "win" then you win. But I'm not sure what that is? I'm not sure what you want from me?

[theaudiohobby]

Some say it's impolite to discuss religion. Audio Note is religion with RGA.

In RGA's world speaker selection is a zero sum game , The only true way is the Audio Note way,

[theaudiohobby]

Art basically sums it up:

Art is an audio writer, sounding excited about some of the products he reviews is his job As a counterpoint here a clip from another reviewer.

"It’s tremendously high across-the-board performance is what impresses me most; it’s surely the best all round loudspeaker I’ve yet heard, and better still it’s neither bland nor emotionally unengaging as a result of its sheer efficiency and competence – indeed you’ll struggle to hear a more emotionally engaging loudspeaker anywhere.--Dave Price"

Guess which speaker is being reviewed? Notice the similarity to Art's commentary? By the way, you've shot your credibility in this thread. Your position on audio reviews is hypocritical, reviews are only credible if the reviewer favourably reviews a product you like.

My point remains the same, your criticism of other speaker brands is OTT and sometimes uncalled for.

[RGA]

TAH

But what is it you want from me.

If I listen to two loudspeakers - one that I think is Much better a 10/10 and another speaker I think is poor 5/10 - what do you suggest I do? Listening to music reproduced on a stereo is 100% subjective. You can, as stereopphile does, bring out several graphs but the JOB and the ONLY job is to be satisfactory in the listening position in room to the person listening to the system. That is why JA admits the measurements don't remotely tell the whole story. That is why good reviews follow speakers that measure flat and ones that don't.

I don't purport my view to be anything but subjective - if I like Oranges better than Apples someone might be able to produce a fruit acidity index and vitamin c charts that tell me that in fact Apples are the superior fruit but it doesn't change the "tasting" of the fruit.

My contention for Audio Note is that more audio reviewers who have heard both Audio Note and B&W choose Audio Note. Every person I have met and can substantiate that they indeed listened to the AN J or E have preferred it to B&W. All of those people are merely "subjective" views - whether one is a "reviewer" or not.

Are you suggesting that I am not entitled and no one who has heard both loudspeakers entitled to prefer Audio Note or in fact have the opinion that a particular same priced B&W is quite a poor alternative? I dislike Lord of the Rings as a film triology too and I can explain why - other people think it's the greatest film series in the history of cinema.

So what do you want from me?

[theaudiohobby]

The text was from a B&W801D review in Hi-FiWorld.

TAH

So what do you want from me?

Lay off unsubstantiated and largely unjustified remarks of other speaker brands e.g. Claiming some folk using 800 series to monitor does not know how actual instruments sound and put out thin bright recordings is uncalled for.

My contention for Audio Note is that more audio reviewers who have heard both Audio Note and B&W choose Audio Note.

Absolute rubbish.......you have absolutely no evidence to back such a wild claim.

I'll ignore the various strawmen....

[RGA]

Well truth be told I like the 801 and I suppose I should not have used it as a point for AN. However the story I mentioned about the N801 coming back can be verified by Soundhounds who I could ask owners if they would mind being contacted by you. So it is verfiiable if you wish to check.

"Produces a fine open sound thats hard to better at the price. A system for the real discerning listener who loves classical music." This was for AN by the same David Price.

Nevertheless I get your point - the words are in some ways no better than astrology being espoused on numerous brands.

Before you rubbish the idea of evidence I don't think it would be a truly difficult task to determine - a number of companies ask you to fill in a survey card - what model you bought and what model you used to own. I can't recall if Audio Note or B&W does that by some of my gear had those questions on the warranty card you mail back.

You could I suppose ask both B&W and Audio Note to survey their customer base and figure out which owners traded Audio Note for B&W and B&W for Audio Note.

I suppose I am making a leap based on Soundhounds but they're the only dealer I know selling both brands so I am going by their results. If you sell $7k B&W and $7K ML and $7k Paradigm Signature and $7K AN then after awhile you stop selling the B&W, ML, and Paradigm - all of which have a far superior marketing presence in Canada and you continue to sell the AN that the store can't even get stock of then to me the results are pretty clear that people are voting with their wallets (when they actually have the opportunity to compare). AN is far smaller than those brands but that also means they are far less heard than those other brands. Should I go by a sample size of one store - perhaps not but it's the only sample I know of.

But this is neither here nor there - I'll lay off commentary of B&W that extends beyond my subjective listening of the product because in reality the my belief of "ways of marketing" really has nothing to do with the sound. I continue to recommend numerous B&W loudspeakers and continue to dislike a bunch of them as well. But that is true of virtually every company I hear - including incidentally Audio Note

[3db]

Sheesh. Been gone for almost 2 years and I come back to this? *LMOA* RGA still spouting off the virtues of Audio Note speakers and forgetting to realize that the most subjective puchase in the audio chain are speakers.

RGA..who cares man? If you love-em great...but don't be putting down other speakers because of that. No other company buillds a more inert speaker cabinet than B&W . There high end models are practically vibration free and its vibrations that kills a good loudspeaker.

[Mr Peabody]

You all have it wrong, it's Dynaudio or nothing.

[blackraven]

And I thought Magnepans were the end all in speakers

[audio amateur]

You all have it wrong, it's Dynaudio or nothing.

Rightly so

[basite]

You all have it wrong, it's Dynaudio or nothing.

no no no.

Thiel. nothing else but Thiel.





now please, stop fighting and learn to live with the fact that tastes differ. you can both say you prefer 'that speaker', and why that is, but please, don't try stuffing the other with 'facts' that your speaker is 'better'...


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[audio amateur]

now please, stop fighting and learn to live with the fact that tastes differ. you can both say you prefer 'that speaker', and why that is, but please, don't try stuffing the other with 'facts' that your speaker is 'better'...

I definitely mirror this feeling. You've both said your bit and I don't think there's much point in debating this any further. It's been enlightening, although a little hostile at times, I suggest you leave it at that

[puiutu62]

Now I have the sapphire,and I am very happy to choose this speakers.Together with Accuphase integrated 406V.Dc-65V player and PS-500V power suply is a dream combination,(but only after 70,80 hours of run,(now I think I have cca.100 hours),and I think the sound will be more better in the future,after running in complete.
Thanks again for the people who encourage me to make this combination.

[Mr Peabody]

Now I have the sapphire,and I am very happy to choose this speakers.Together with Accuphase integrated 406V.Dc-65V player and PS-500V power suply is a dream combination,(but only after 70,80 hours of run,(now I think I have cca.100 hours),and I think the sound will be more better in the future,after running in complete.
Thanks again for the people who encourage me to make this combination.

Are you talking about the Dynaudio Sapphires?! If so, you are my hero. The break in time sounds familiar to a Dynaudio owner. The Sapphires are my dream speaker. Some might think the Evidence would be but who has a room large enough to make those sound correct. The Sapphires are awesome and can be used realistically in some one's home. Absolutely, incredible speaker.

[puiutu62]

Mr Peabody,and all
Yes is really incredibile this speacker,I don't know in another setup,but with Accuphase is really a dream.The think who make me to be afried on the begining was to not be too soft the sound with accuphase....now I can say is not!!!,I here much sistems,(a friend of mine have Dynaudio C4 with Pass 350,and I can say in this capitol,(spead/energy),my sistem is better.I read the review on the Stereophile where say "sometimes the sound un uper end is to bright",and must use the cover,...Yes,the sound is 100% not dark,but with the right cable,(I use Audioquest Anaconda balanced and Accuphase unbalanced,ansd Audioquest Pikes Peack and Vulcano,and with this cable I can make really a dream sound).My room is 5m x 5,5m,(I must somthing made in the future with the things from the room to be better,(new arranges).
With the right Electronic,I really can recomand you this speakers!
If you will to know something near this speaker,please ask,and I try to tell from my experience with them!

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks. Trust me if those were in my budget I'd already have a pair. The C4 is a very good speaker but the Sapphire is something special.

[daveuzuk]

Hello to all!
I am new here,but I think here I can find a good advice about speakers-amplifier compatibility.
I have a Acuphase E 406V integrat amplifier and a Acuphase Cd-player DP 65V.
My question is:
I will chose fromynaudio C2,Dynaudio Saphire,countur 5.4,or B&W Nautilius 802/803,or Focal JM lab Alto Utopia or Electra 920.
First I must say...YES,I know ,the sound is much diferent wit this type of speakers,...but is the 406Vfrom Accuphase enough stronger/good/give high curent to handle this speakers on his performance or not?Know somebody this think?
My tendency is to go for Dynaudio Saphire...????Wat you think?is a god choosing?
I hear my Accuphase with a Dynaudio C2.I was satisfied with the sound,but...if is posibil to have a better sound with the accuphase line 406v and 65v,and someone can give a adwice,please give me this.
And ...From Accuphase a Power conditioner PS 500,will be a big improuwment on the sound or not?(I read much of this Accuphase PS 500 and manny people said"he make miracle ".Is really so?
Thanks,and sorry for....many question

Add Harbeths and Art loudspeaker to your list - The focals have that dreaded metal tweeter play something with some tough treble bits and listen to is shriek away at you.

Uzzy