Active Vs. Passive speakers.

[RGA]

The only heritage speaker I have heard is the Klipschhorn and they are big bold and have a sense of live scale. The Reference speakers are the slim line designed speakers that are less efficient and boxier sounding and possess a nasal quality to them - but I find that from most slim boxes like this. The Reference standmounts have less box and thus less interference. I like them at the price mind you and think they get overlooked because largely they sell in low-fi shops - in Canada they sell at London Drugs which is unfortunate because they're typically mated to receivers and lines up beside 10 other speakers with a switch box.

The K-Horn has a big live scale sound far more dynamic and largely free of the box. Some complain about the treble but so it goes with any horn. I think that can be compensated for with good electronics - horns tend to show up limitations.

I know some folks like the LaScalla and others better than the K-Horn - they may be right Have not heard them so I can't say.

Still I would probably lean to the Tannoy Prestige series since they're in the same price class offer similar live scale sound - and generally sound smoother - but they cost more.

[paulspencer]

I haven't heard too many Klipsch speakers, but the ones I've heard were not good enough to use as a basis for comparing amps. It's futile trying to judge amps when the speakers used have a lot of coloration are are simply not neutral enough. I recall a session at a high end hifi shop where the sales person showed a friend of mine two different amps on some cheap mini speakers. He was expecting us to pick the difference between a Yamaha and Denon receiver. The track was a familar Jazz track. I didn't say at the time but it sounded equally awful on both amps. The speakers were so bad it was impossible to judge. I'd expect the same of a lot of Klipsch speakers which have a fair amount of treble coloration from the horn loaded domes. Tracks that sound magical on neutral and accurate speakers with just about any amp sounded bland and lifeless. It's a bit like trying to hear a whisper when someone in the room is shouting, yet that's what a lot of audiophiles think they can do.

[Mr Peabody]

If any one knew me or looks into my threads you will notice I was far from a Klipsch fan. They have speakers I've seen and heard that are...... well trying to be tactful, let's just say I wouldn't own or listen to them. The Klipschorns are a different story as I understand the same with the four remaining models in the Heritage line. It's a shame the same company can make other products that are just dreadful.

I saw Klipsch has a Paladium series that is pretty expensive, any one know what kind of sound they have?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir Terrence the Terrible

There are always exceptions - and I think the toughest thing is to change track once you have your mind set on a given technology - and that includes me. CES 2010 was nice because I found numerous exceptions to my belief systems - enough to not get locked in on approaches. Though I still noted that the very best rooms used tube front ends and it says much when most of the rooms were using tube front ends - even rooms with speakers that you would be "surprised" would use a tube amp.

I used to attend CES every year, but work and having my own studio has pretty much killed that. I think you are right on changing track once you have settled on a particular technology. My choice is based on my attendance at CES, listening to many different high end(costly) and high performance(not always costly) systems over the years. I have heard really good sounding tube based systems, but there was always a flaw in them that I could not get past. They may have a great coherent midrange and sweet highs, but the bass either dragged the system down, or distortion was a problem with peaks. My journey with ribbon or electrostatic panels was always dogged by linearity problems, poor bass response, lack of overall dynamics, poor dispersion characteristics in the high frequencies even though they had a lush and coherent midrange. Being a musician, I believe that a good bass response is essential to a good sounding loudspeaker. The bass is the foundation of all music, and if a speaker cannot do it well, it kills everything else for me.

I don't love the stereotypes that tubes get - but must admit there are a LOT of tube amps that do sound mushy, veiled, dark, and lack openness and unfortunately those are the tube amps that seem to get more attention. I don't like the idea of trying to "fix" loudspeakers using amps as tone controls. And it's awfully hard to convince a PMC Bryston guy to go with tubes if they have heard mushy tubes like a Cary or Jolida which tend not to be able to generate the bottom end impact of the bigger SS amps.

I have heard both Cary and Jolida tube amps, but they are not the only ones that have formed my opinion on tube amps. Some of the really good tube designs sound damn good when paired with speakers they can drive well, but my experience has found that that combination was scarce outside of events like CES. I do not like the fact that the tubes have to be replaced, and seemingly needed constant fiddling with to get optimum performance(at least it seemed that way). Another perception I have is that certain cable designs can give some tube amps a real bad fit. I guess I am a plug and play guy, and the only thing I really like fiddling with constantly is room acoustics, of which I am a stickler about.

I believe in the system approach - and with low powered tube designs you almost have to buy into the system synergy notion because SETS have such low power they simply can't drive every loudspeaker the way a massive Bryston can. So the only thing I can say is that it requires an audition.

We are in total agreement here. I believe in system synergy far more than system price. I have found that some very costly components can really sound bad when combined together, and some medium priced components can often sound quite good when combined. I have one home theater/music system that did not cost a lot of money to put together, but had great synergy that made it sound terrific when combined together.

This is a poster on AA who had top of the line Bryston/PMC $20k British pounds invested in it. And he brought home an entry level Audio Note system to try out. http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/O...al/345133.html

I loved that the reviewer gave enough information for us to get the idea he liked what he heard, but not enough for the vultures to pick apart his pleasure.

I think it's critical that a tube design not sound thick or veiled - it needs to have the same treble openness and bass drive - and not very many tube systems muster it to a satisfactory level to convince SS guys to switch.

Bingo. I am sure there are tube system that can do everything a SS amp can do, but those system cost far more than a SS amp, or they are too few and far between. While I don't think that SS amps are the holy grail of sound reproduction, many of them do so well on so many perimeters it is easy to look at them that way. This is how I look at the Bryston 28b, and the CL-2500 amps I have. Not perfect, but so close in so many ways.

[Mr Peabody]

Sir T, ever hear any of the Dynaudio studio speakers?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

If any one knew me or looks into my threads you will notice I was far from a Klipsch fan. They have speakers I've seen and heard that are...... well trying to be tactful, let's just say I wouldn't own or listen to them. The Klipschorns are a different story as I understand the same with the four remaining models in the Heritage line. It's a shame the same company can make other products that are just dreadful.

With Klipsch, you scale upwards in sound as you go up their individual lines. The Synergy line is just awful, and I mean awful. Spitty piercing highs, bloated bass, and very hard midrange are how I would describe them. The Reference Line sounds a little more refined, but still dogged by harsh highs(when driven), but has a smoother midrange but an overly prominent bass. The American assembled line (RF-3,RF-5, and RF-7) sound better than the Chinese assembled speakers in the line such as the RF- 35, RF-52 and 82. The Heritage line generally sounds the best of all their speakers, and with after market mods(better crossovers, and better drivers) they can sound clean. lively, very present, and full of realistic dynamic punch. I have three heavily modified Klipschorns that used to have a home in my screening/mixing room. These were the best sounding speakers I had every heard up to that point in my listening experience. Every negative issue with the speaker had been addressed in the mod, so they were just stunning to listen to. Using wood horns in place of metal or plastic is the key to getting rid of the horn coloration the speaker can sometimes exhibit. They were the most un-horn like sounding horn loaded speaker I have ever heard, much like the current horn hybrid system I currently use in one of my hometheaters. They are in storage now until I can figure out what to do with them.

I saw Klipsch has a Paladium series that is pretty expensive, any one know what kind of sound they have?

It is far more refined than the Klipschorn in every way. The PF-39F when paired with the right amp sounds absolutely stunning. They flesh out detail as good as electrostatic and ribbons do, and sound just as coherent in the midrange and sound staging as well. Before I invested in my PMC, this was the speaker I had originally wanted for my tracking/listening room. They came out too late, so I went with the PMC's instead. I will definitely give them some consideration in the future.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T, ever hear any of the Dynaudio studio speakers?

Most definately. My good friend Chris Boyes (sound designer of Avatar, and Pirates of the Carribean) uses the AIR20 active monitors and BM 14S Active subwoofer in his sound design suite at his house. He has used this monitoring system to create the sound design for Iron Man, Pirates, Avatar, and several other high profile movies. Great sound.

Now that i think of it, several of my fellow sound designers use Dynaudio speakers for their mixing and sound design monitoring systems. Dynaudio is pretty popular in Hollywood post production facilities. They are popular along with M&K speakers, and Blue Sky monitors.

[K-High-Fi]

Thank you Peabody and RGA very much for great comments. I decided to buy Pro-Ject tube phono box SE II for my 9.1 turntables, if anybody feel this tube not perfect please let me know. I will be very happy to learn.

Since nobody mention it, what people think of Conrad Johnson, does it sound real tube? and what the special thing about these bulbs and importance like 300B?

Thanks.

[RGA]

Sir T

The problem is that I have the reverse problem or I guess experience than you have had. Most people who go on about tubes talk about the midrange magic and not the rolloff on the frequency extremes. Kind of what Panel owners like.

Unlike Panels that sound like that no matter what amplifier is hooked up tube amps are far more varied in design and sound quality. A Jolida 302B sounds a LOT different than an Antique Sound Labs AQ 1003DT despite the fact that both use the same tube compliment. The Jolida sounds syrupy and fat and the ASL sounds more like a Bryston. Polar opposite sounding tube amps. I actually like them both for the money and you can generally partner them with the right kind of speaker to yield good results.

The interesting thing though is the AN E/Spe HE with Jinro integrated (~ 20 watts) and it was some of the best bass at CES. I walked into one room where the guy was telling me that you needed 1000 watts (his own 1000 watt power amp) to drive speakers properly and get proper bass). I wonder why these manufacturers don't close their door for half an hour and walk down the halls to listen because the AN E played louder with deeper tighter bass - and didn't screw up the midrange and make the treble sound brittle.

Frankly I get tired of hearing those manufacturers because they either bury their head in the sound or they have no clue what they're doing.

There is not question that some speakers require more power than a 10 watt tube amp - and that such amps will become distortion generators. Usually low frequencies and high frequencies is where impedance drops. That requires the tube amp (or any amp) to increase power to meet the speaker's needs. When the need isn't met the speaker distorts because the amp can't produce.

Though I will maintain that when the speaker is chosen carefully - a good tube amp has better bass than a SS amp. And IMO it comes down to decay and that is where SS even the best of the best SS falls apart.

But just staying with SS - I once directly compared a Sugden A48b Class A/B 60 watter versus a big 150watt Musical FIdelity. The MF sounded powerful and has that noise/air rush around instruments that sounds detailed on the showroom floor. The Sugden had all the treble without the noise/air and at first sounds a little dark. The MF had very tight bass response - the Sugden had a deeper tone - but it also sounded as though it was producing a lot deeper bass as well. The A48b is known as a "valve-like" sounding SS amp.

To me the Sugden was a much better amplifier and I bought it. Sugden's are not high current amps - they don't double into 4ohms and they have no frequency limiter devices. The Bryston 3,4 and 7 and 14 are the Bryston's I have heard and all lack bass depth IMO. They're fast and tight but they simply never really dig deep and that is a problem with them on my speakers - I felt they cut off a few octaves. The treble has that noise/air that is not present in any live music I have ever heard - that air may sound cool but I can't believe how it can be viewed as accurate. Something IMO is franly broken about the sound. The caveat though is that a speaker built for low damping factor won't work well with the likes of Bryston and the reverse is true.

So ultimately it then comes down to speaker choice. A Bryston will drive far more speakers than a 10 watt amp - but to me the issue should be framed differently - since very few speakers are really any good (at least ones that are affordable) the fact that an amp can drive more of the bad ones doesn't really make the advantage an advantage.

For the recording studio tubes have problems - down time is a big one and a hugely costly one. But one reason people complain so much about most recordings being lousy and worse that pre 1970's recordings may in fact in part be due to changing from tubes to SS. I have a growing record collection and so far all of the best ones are the older ones. It should be noted that one of if not the best classical recording studios, Chesky records, uses tube equipment in the studio.

Tubes are pain in the butt. I like plug and play as well. Fortunately, I chose Audio Note which requires no work of any kind. The SE amps require no tube biasing and they have a generally long life - 8000+ hours on the amps and 100,000 hours on the cd players. Take them out and stick the new ones in and the amp does the rest. Not too bad at all. Note many other amps do this self biasing - you have to look - pretty sure all SETs do it.

To me I go by the sound of the overall system - the actual boxes are completely unimportant. My dealer carries for example the N801 from B&W and I am sure you have heard them. Running Bryston power amps, McIntosh, MF. Versus an AN E and an 8 watt amps. The N801 should have more bass and slam and treble etc. I should walk away "clearly" being swayed that the N801 with that kind of amplifier power should win the day. A two way with 8 watts has no right to even compete let alone beat them. It just shouldn't happen.

I would have liked to audition the 28b but the only room using it was the Magnepan room and those are hardly the speakers you want to use to show off bass prowess, accuracy, dynamics, treble quality. Why Bryston would choose them is beyond me.

[Mr Peabody]

K-high, I think I touched on this earlier. I love Conrad Johnson. The gear seems to give the music a soul, sort of a rhythm or pace to it, the thing that makes music, music. I read and heard the term "musical" used to describe a lot of gear, it may mean different things to different people but to me Conrad Johnson is the epitomy of "musical". Some of the older gear has sort of the stereotype tube sound but the more modern gear has good bass response with extended highs. The PV14 I had was a good preamp for the price but didn't extend to deeper low end and a bit valed compared to my current CT6. The CT6 is an incredible preamp that shatters any stereotype of tubes. My system now does a better bass line than anything I've owned prior and that includes Krell. Krell may have better control but it lacks what RGA was talking about, the decay. The CJ is more able to make the bass sound like bass. The Krell is actually a bit too controlled to be totally convincing. To be fair my tube set up isn't as fast as Krell either. So crescendos aren't going to have quite the impact as with the likes of a Krell. Krell can deliver quite a gut punch when called upon. One thing I enjoy in my tube gear is the presence. I have yet to hear any solid state gear give you that live in the room feel to human voices the way tubes can. Some may call it warmth but when I listen to solid state it may give you the physical feel of a live performance but it lacks something tubes have. I call it presence but it's more an ability to lift the performance off the paper or give it more dimension. If you've ever tried walking in the dark or your eyes closed and felt you were coming close to a wall? It's sort of that feel tubes give to music. Your mind is more convinced of reality Except for ultra expensive solid state gear, for the most part, tubes are more capable of delivering micro and macro dynamics. I also like to call these "texture". Because those dynamics is what conveys more detail about the instrument being played. I am talking in general terms when referring to tubes. Conrad Johnson for the most part delivers the things I was speaking of in spades. Again, it's worth repeating, CJ in the past their gear definitely had a "golden glow". So when buying used older gear may be more stereotype tube where newer gear keeps with good attributes of tubes while doing away with many of the stereotypes like rolled off highs and tubby bass.

[E-Stat]

I love Conrad Johnson. The gear seems to give the music a soul, sort of a rhythm or pace to it, the thing that makes music, music. I read and heard the term "musical" used to describe a lot of gear, it may mean different things to different people but to me Conrad Johnson is the epitomy of "musical".

I've always like C-J gear since the time I first heard the Premier One amp back in 1980. The ART line stage remains among my favorites.

rw

[Ajani]

Yes i get pounded for my views on bryston

I must say that this is one of the most insightful threads I've read on AR in very long time!

RGA, Sir T and Mr Peabody have all provided some excellent perspective on why they chose the gear they did and what they compared it to... While I haven't auditioned all the brands you 3 have mentioned, I am familiar with enough of them to appreciate what you are talking about and the descriptions of strengths/flaws of each...

[K-High-Fi]

Agreed! Thank you all for helfpul thoguhts.

[K-High-Fi]

Thank you RGA, Mr Peabody, and Sir Terrence. Your posts are truely helpful for me. Thanks again for everything.

[Mr Peabody]

You are welcome.

[Hipper]

I haven't a wide range of expertise on this subject but have VMPS RM30M speakers with a passive crossover. These have ribbon drivers for the tweeter and mid range.

There are options throughout the VMPS range for both passive and active (using the Behringer DCX) crossovers and prices seem reasonable. The problem I had in the UK was auditioning them - I couldn't but took a chance on the guidance of my dealer and don't regret it.

The RM30M worked well for me in a small room (13' x 8' x 8') but this was with room treatment and a digital equalizer (Behringer DEQ2496). I now view these two as an essential part of any hi-fi set up. I listen in a nearfield arrangement.

http://www.vmpsaudio.com/RM30.htm