Problems with moderating/moderators

[bonsaiguitar]

LMAO I would just like to say being new here the rules do seem a bit strict. I posted about I-Pod speakers and Bose was brought up. A moderator told me I was off topic even though several others were also off topic. It's seems to me the REAL problem was that some people, even moderators have a problem with Bose.

If this post belongs somewhere else please let me know because with all the different forums I really don't have a clue.

[Geoffcin]

LMAO I would just like to say being new here the rules do seem a bit strict. I posted about I-Pod speakers and Bose was brought up. A moderator told me I was off topic even though several others were also off topic. It's seems to me the REAL problem was that some people, even moderators have a problem with Bose.

If this post belongs somewhere else please let me know because with all the different forums I really don't have a clue.

It wasn't that the moderator (no it wasn't me) didn't like Bose, it was that he thought you were (with your first post I believe) trolling for a "Bose Bashing"

Give the moderator his due though. Once he realized that you were not a troll, he re-instated your post. That's the sign of a decent guy who plays fair. It seemed to work too, as you've stuck around awhile. You must like the place!

[bonsaiguitar]

It wasn't that the moderator (no it wasn't me) didn't like Bose, it was that he thought you were (with your first post I believe) trolling for a "Bose Bashing"

Give the moderator his due though. Once he realized that you were not a troll, he re-instated your post. That's the sign of a decent guy who plays fair. It seemed to work too, as you've stuck around awhile. You must like the place!

Actaully my first post was removed, then reinstated after I proved myself. I've never had a post removed on a forum let alone one so fast and without reason. Thanks for bringing that up, almost forgot about that.

The other one in question was about I-Pod speakers and the subject of Bose came up. So from what I see here so far if someone asked about eggs your OK talking about them unless you say how you liked them cooked.

I think the forum is OK, but I was looking for another one that allows a little more freedom. As for flamers they can be suspended and weeded out with proper registration.

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

Even though you were named my post wasn't directed at you personally. As I said, I was speaking more about the behavior I've observed in the last 9 years than any one individual or forum. I was using the example you gave to make a point, it had nothing to do with you as I'm not even familiar with you.


But I don't know why you complain about the "rules of engagement" on AR. The admins run the show and if you don't like how they handle it then hang your hat elsewhere. I've done that myself on a few occasions. I've got better things to do than fight them on how they should run their site. Providing them with feedback is one thing but it isn't right to bend the rules just to suit our personal gain or folly.


So, yes I think you should allow those that wish to discuss the merits of cables to do so without pooping on their parade. Just as they shouldn't go running around slamming your beliefs, unsupported claims or what not. Like I said, if you guys want to discuss technical stuff as freely as others talk about the benefits of cables then post in the Audio Lab. If there is no traffic there is that the fault or concern of members that frequent the other 20 or so forums? I think not.

As I said, "If everyone would "play nice" there wouldn't be a need to seperate them." And the Audio Lab wouldn't even exist. Rules are put in place for those that can't govern themselves.

[Geoffcin]

But I don't know why you complain about the "rules of engagement" on AR. The admins run the show and if you don't like how they handle it then hang your hat elsewhere. I've done that myself on a few occasions. I've got better things to do than fight them on how they should run their site. Providing them with feedback is one thing but it isn't right to bend the rules just to suit our personal gain or folly.

A well managed public forum should have a place where the members can engage the administration to air their grievances. The moderators/administrators should be flexible in the way they respond to problems, not dogmatic and rigid.

Jneutron, even though I disagree with him on several points, brings up a valid argument, and as such has a right to be heard.

[bonsaiguitar]

Hey, that's it! Everyone that doesn't like the rules here, just leave. Now we can change the name of this thread to "If you don't like it leave". JK.....LMAO

I think it's great that we have this area to vent. It's kind of a cop out to just say leave when we're all here to discuss and as with anything in life we're not always going to agree with eachother. That's what forums are all about.

My only request would be for the moderators to check out posts before acting and maybe allow a few threads off topic as long as the thread gets back on track.

[kexodusc]

The sense I got from Eric and Geoff was a willingness to let a few things go as far as discussing science outside the Audio Lab goes, to see how it works out, and deal with any blatant and obvious flamers and thread jackers as they come.
This sounds like the perfect compromise to me. I'm not sure what people can still complain about. If your intentions are good, you have nothing to worry about as far as censorship or restrictions go. If you're just there to call cable buyers foolish and challenge their beliefs for the sake of challenging them, get the @#*$ out!
These guys should be commended for their openness and flexibility. Most forums I visit have a "my way, or the highway" attitude where the admins get so emotionally attached to their suggestions for the forums that any constructive criticism is taken personally and a jihad is ordered.

This thread was great, and aside from a misunderstanding, remained very civil throughout. But maybe it's time we all got back to posting more audio oriented opinions and thoughts.

[bonsaiguitar]

I can care less what people say about my cables, those huge runs behnid my system running to my speakers look cool.

I agree, this has been pretty open thread and many forums are so locked up with rules and subject bans that it's hard to post about anything other than what the moderators beleive. I don't see that here, and I hope the Bose I-Pod incident was coincidence. Time will tell and I plan to be here as long as you all will have me.

Maybe like 3 or 4 posts off topic could be the rule. It's pretty hard sometimes to stay only to one topic when people are asking for advice. Someone always has a story to tell that my go off a bit but that's part of the fun of being here to me. Other members experiences are amazing in some cases.

[jneutron]

But I don't hold it against you.....

Hmmm..an enemy, but I don't hold it against you..??

Cryptic, yet, ummm, cryptic..

Back to square one with this. For the record; debate IS allowed in the cables forum. It's still going on as we speak....

I know, I've been following it.

What I have been concerned all along about is your initial action to direct the discussion away from what you wished to avoid. Science was invoked, that should be questioned..Bruce did so very kindly, no flames, so it should have been allowed to continue unhindered. The fact that you removed your remarks in response to my concerns tells us that you listened and reconsidered your actions. That is always a good thing.

I only wish a place where it all can be discussed..

My history here has also been one of speaking against those who say prove it..just look through the archives.

Cheers, John

[Geoffcin]

The fact that you removed your remarks in response to my concerns tells us that you listened and reconsidered your actions. That is always a good thing.

I only wish a place where it all can be discussed..

My history here has also been one of speaking against those who say prove it..just look through the archives.

Cheers, John

My sense is that you want(ed) a more active forum. On that point we are also on the same side.

[jneutron]

Even though you were named my post wasn't directed at you personally. As I said, I was speaking more about the behavior I've observed in the last 9 years than any one individual or forum. I was using the example you gave to make a point, it had nothing to do with you as I'm not even familiar with you.

I did not take personal offense. I concur with your viewpoint on previous posting behaviour...I have also cautioned against simply allowing bad behaviour to come back.

But I don't know why you complain about the "rules of engagement" on AR. The admins run the show and if you don't like how they handle it then hang your hat elsewhere. I've done that myself on a few occasions. I've got better things to do than fight them on how they should run their site. Providing them with feedback is one thing but it isn't right to bend the rules just to suit our personal gain or folly.

I did indeed do just that. No whining, no complaining, no showy feet stompin. I just said I'll come back in a coupla months and see how it's going.

I started checking the place out recently, and I see it's a dead zone. Cables is dead, the lab is, ummm, words fail me...nonexistant?

Of the three forums I used to frequent, this one was the best for jpeg support as well as equation support..(course, they don't support full ISO 8859, so greek symbols are out..AA does support it, so I can pop nice format equations there, but no graphics..)

As I have stated all along here on this thread, I have provided feedback. I believe it is time to back off the stance that was taken in the effort to bring this forum back to civility, it was a swing too wide....that of an underdamped feedback, too much.

So, yes I think you should allow those that wish to discuss the merits of cables to do so without pooping on their parade. Just as they shouldn't go running around slamming your beliefs, unsupported claims or what not. Like I said, if you guys want to discuss technical stuff as freely as others talk about the benefits of cables then post in the Audio Lab. If there is no traffic there is that the fault or concern of members that frequent the other 20 or so forums? I think not.

In my entire history at this site, at any site whatsoever, I have not rained on anyone's parade. I do not provide unsupported claims without stating such. I try to keep what I say fully supported, via science, physics, e/m theory, whatever...and if what I state is unsupported, I make it clear that it is such.

The technical information is precisely the reason a cable would provide a benefit. The fact is, there is little correlation between the technical side of cables, and what benefit is indeed realized.

If I wished to discuss pure technical without the benefit of real life emperical evidence, I'd go find a book in the library. But the advancement of cable science requires the emperical. That is why the great divide exists, that is why, after 20 or 30 years, the argument continues. If all you are here to do is keep the argument going, then in that we do not agree.

As I said, "If everyone would "play nice" there wouldn't be a need to seperate them." And the Audio Lab wouldn't even exist. Rules are put in place for those that can't govern themselves.

We concur...if everyone would play nice. That has also been one of my key points..moderation at diy has been successful in that regard, they use different rules to establish and maintain decorum. Banning technical discussion to another forum was not one of them.

The audio lab was established as a place for the unruly to go, unruly being the camp that says "prove it".

It was tried, it failed. As a result, it is dead, cables is on life support. I only asked that the decision be re-visited, perhaps with stronger rules for dealing with the unruly.

Even though you did mention me by name and used my example, I understood your intent. If you choose to believe that I have taken offense to anything you say in support of your position, I will then have to re-think about taking "offense". As is, you've been quite civil while stating your position..

Cheers, John

[jneutron]

My sense is that you want(ed) a more active forum. On that point we are also on the same side.

We are in full agreement.

The fact that THIS thread exists unmolested, I find very refreshing. My voice of "discontent", which I intended as positive feedback, was not deleted (that would have been easy, and well within the rights of the moderator, you..).

Instead, I find that I am happy with the outcome. Thanks for allowing the discussion.

I am somewhat unhappy however, that one of the most active threads was not about audio, but about the environment of the forum. I do not know if that is due to "rubber-necking", discontent, or drinking anything in the desert. My two cents was intended to help, I hope it does..

Cheers, John

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I feel for you Geoffcin, it's like you are running up hill in mashed potatoes, blindfolded, with both arms tied behind your back all while being pelted by bags of $hit. It's a thankless job but somebody has to do it.

I just got a visual........

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Well i feel that we all are "subjectivists" in one way or the other. I am for ribbons, Wooch is generally for Paradigm boxes, SirT contests all of High End and argues MC with Bernd who is in a totally different leauge then him.

No Florian, I do not contest all of high end, I contest the notion that price equal performance. You and Bernd seem to have it in your head that if you don't pay 20k for speakers, they are not good. You specifically argue that all box speakers sound boxy and colored, which not only is a lie (you haven't heard every box speaker and certainly not mine) but is not supported by objective measurements at any level. I have also read statements of yours that state that all horn loaded speakers are colored, have you actually heard ALL horn loaded speakers? I don't think so, especially not mine since they are not a mass market speaker set. You expouse the virtures of ribbon and planar speakers as if they were the perfect design, they in fact are not, and there has been no listening studies that confirm your belief.

Nobody is in a different league than anyone. We are all equals here with varying degrees of knowledge. If you are going to attempt to size up ones opinions, look at them all, not one opinion in one isolated thread. I own two sets of speakers that one can consider are high end. A 5.1 set of Aerial Acoustics speakers, and 5 Dunlavy SCV and two of their accompanying subwoofers. If I was so against high end, why in the hell would I spend what would be considered the price of a Mercedes to own them? Because they were worth every penny. I have not heard a pair of speakers that cost 20k a piece that were actually worth that. Speakers that cost this much for a pair are statement pieces ONLY. When you reach a certain price point, you experience diminshing returns. I have spent 10K on a digital processor for my studio, was it worth it? You're damn right it is. I will spend the money when the performance equals the price.

I have grown up and wisened up. No more bragging about how much I spent on my rig just for the sake of being able to say I have the money. No more spending outrageous amounts of money for stuff that just isn't worth the price just to brag about it. That is childish, stupid, immature, and infantile. When you understand this, you will grow up too.

I simply think that some big guys on here lack character, they dont stand for anything and simple agree with most people and encourage them instead of stepping up and sticking to their opinion.

--This is a friendly post

-Flo

Rather than pointing fingers you could add yourself to that list.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

My personal opinion on the Audio Lab is I hate it, but understand completely why it was created. While I don't like to see newbies knocked on the head just because they have a preference, I equally do not like to see sombody passing off their subjective opinion as science. I think mentioning DBT as a source to an arguement should be allowed as it lends(or may not) credibility to an arguement. I think science should be allowed to enter in the discussion, as it is a counterbalance to subjective conjecture. I hope the rules are relaxed post haste, as I tend to learn more when what is said is actually factual, and not just somebody's opinion or experience. Experience is very valuable, but it is not the only thing that should be used to support a point.

[jneutron]

My personal opinion on the Audio Lab is I hate it, but understand completely why it was created. While I don't like to see newbies knocked on the head just because they have a preference, I equally do not like to see sombody passing off their subjective opinion as science. I think mentioning DBT as a source to an arguement should be allowed as it lends(or may not) credibility to an arguement. I think science should be allowed to enter in the discussion, as it is a counterbalance to subjective conjecture. I hope the rules are relaxed post haste, as I tend to learn more when what is said is actually factual, and not just somebody's opinion or experience. Experience is very valuable, but it is not the only thing that should be used to support a point.

Nice post..

Unfortunately, experience is sometimes the only thing that is available to support a point. That, I feel, is the soft spot for the subjectivists which sometimes does require intervention by moderation. One does not need a science background to hear something that one cannot explain, just as one does not need an advanced automotive degree to feel that one vehicle is more stable around corners than another. But it is all too easy to apply science to quash subjective, and this can be at times, counterproductive.

With respect to DBT's, they are certainly useful for spotting differences that can be discerned instantly. Unfortunately, humans by nature, adapt to stimulus. We adjust to light intensity, sound intensity, and those adjustments take time.

HIFi presents us localization cues which do not exist in nature. So, we adjust. Change the relationship of the localization cues, we will also adjust...but that takes time.

Rapid switching does not allow humans that adaptation time...it therefore, is not very good for localization cue alterations. Imaging artifacts are not spotted..

I've been pinging jj with this stuff..hopefully, with time, he will do something along these lines. That would be good, as it lays the foundation for some of my more complex stuff.

You hate subjective opinion passed off as science.. I certainly concur.. But, I dislike even more... incorrect science passed off as accurate. On occasion, I have some inkling of the science, but cannot post corrections when forum rules deny me that option.

Cheers, John

[Woochifer]

Hey Kex;

i would add yourself to the list and add Wooch ontop of it also. Dont you think that we get tired of constant Paradigm and HT recommendations? Maybe this forum needs different categories with price classes. Other big audio video forums have this and its wonderfull. There are "budget recommendations" in the ten thousand dollar area too and not only in the 200 dollar area. Maybe more seperated sections are a good thing.

-Flo

Taking things awfully personally, eh? I wasn't even part of this discussion, yet you still feel this persistent need to smear people on your "list" and drag them down into crapper with you. The rest of your responses on this thread are just a continuation of that theme -- attack the messenger and ignore the message, no matter what the truth is.

Since you're so "tired of constant Paradigm and HT recommendations" and have to talk up how wonderful "other big audio boards" are, maybe this is the wrong place for you. (I don't who you might be referring to when you say we, since you're all too eager to name people when you're on the attack, yet remain vague and secretive about who your unknown and nameless supporters might be)

Then again, I thought that you were ignoring my posts anyway, so how can you be "tired" of them?

Why I'm a bad audiophile
Building an audio system from scratch...

BTW, I don't universally recommend Paradigm and HT. Anyone who actually reads my posts will tell you that. I will discuss HT whenever it's part of the topic, and recommend that people try Paradigm whenever it potentially matches with someone's preferences and budget. It's not like Paradigm is the only speaker that I advise people to try out, and if a Paradigm model does not fit with someone's preferences, I will tell them that as well. If someone wants a two-channel system, I'm not going to waste anyone's time recommending HT packages. That's called staying on-topic.

I simply think that some big guys on here lack character, they dont stand for anything and simple agree with most people and encourage them instead of stepping up and sticking to their opinion.

So, let's see here, a sign of "character" is beating someone up for daring to have a different set of preferences, budget limits, and expectations? What makes you think that people who post on here are agreeing with "most people" for its own sake? I guess that in your world, the ultimate sign of low character is "encouraging" someone to do the best for what they want, rather than launching into some kind of holy crusade to convert them into some self-annointed definition of high end.

I dunno, I always thought that part of having "character" was having the fortitude to be truthful. Gosh, silly me!

--This is a friendly post

Another lie, nothing new.

[Florian]

To Wooch: You know i dont read your posts and neither do the ones i get along with.


To SirT:

I did add myself to the list ;-)

I never said that i equate performance for money and i also wrote many times that there are box speakers i like and there are also planar speaker i dislike. The problem for me lies in this sentence

Nobody is in a different league than anyone. We are all equals here with varying degrees of knowledge.

This is simply untrue! A AtmaSphere setup on Soundlabs, Acustats big Horns or whatever speaker is in a different league then a Paradigm Ref. 40 on a Yamaha Receiver. Is it fair to compare? No! But do members with Paradigms, Yamahas argue about sound quality with members of lets say Dunlavy SCV or Wilsons ? Yes!

Maybe they dont argue over the brands i mentioned, but 400$ system owners aregue with 10000$ system owners. And that is silly, so different leauges do exist. They could coexist just fine, but they dont because the high leaguge wont accept crap talk from low league people. (Like me not accepting Woochs point on planars because he doesnt understand/own them, let alone gets the difference between their technologys).

Knowledge is great and i never claim to be all knowing, nor do i claim that ribbons, electrostatics etc.. are superior to all speakers. I believe they are, and in my opinion all boxes are colored. Because you have the box and the driver is acoustically transparents. But is it a fact? No! But its my opinion and i am sticking to it!

I like some Horns, i like some Ribbons, I like some Dynamic Systems but i dont let opinions stand that judge a technology that they dont own, afford or have any experience with besides 15 minutes in a showroom.

-Flo

PS: And this is a friendly post, same as the last ones. Sorry if ir reads negatively. I am simply expressing my opinion! I have nothing personal against SirT or others. I just dont agree with their opinion sometimes.

[Woochifer]

To Wooch: You know i dont read your posts and neither do the ones i get along with.

So, if you don't read my posts (of course, that's a lie and you know it), why are you so bent on about dragging my name into a thread that I did not even participate in? You've done this whole feigned ignorance schtick time and time again whenever I point out a lie or inconsistency.

Message to Florian -- it's actually a sign of "character" to own up to your mistakes and apologize for any false accusations that you throw out. Your repeated evasions whenever I or anybody else calls you out for telling outright lies say a lot more about your so-called "character" than whatever new piece of audio equipment you're buying this week.

And who are these "ones that i get along with" that you claim ignore my posts? It would stand to reason that if they ignore me, then they never respond to me (so it would be easy enough to see if this is true) unlike you, who brings my name into discussions that I didn't participate in and responds to posts that you claim to ignore.

This is simply untrue! A AtmaSphere setup on Soundlabs, Acustats big Horns or whatever speaker is in a different league then a Paradigm Ref. 40 on a Yamaha Receiver. Is it fair to compare? No! But do members with Paradigms, Yamahas argue about sound quality with members of lets say Dunlavy SCV or Wilsons ? Yes!

Please show an example of where anyone has compared these systems. You've said this before, and you've been asked to prove it. To date, you've not done anything other than respond with personal attacks and put people who question your claims onto your vaunted "list".

And BTW, have you actually LISTENED to the current Paradigm Studio 40? How would you know whether it's fair to compare when you have no first hand experience? Once again, you're going back to your lame old line of equating the validity of people's opinions with what they own.

Maybe they dont argue over the brands i mentioned, but 400$ system owners aregue with 10000$ system owners.

Who on this board owns a $400 system and is arguing with $10k system owners? Time to name names or shut the hell up with your strawman arguments.

Like me not accepting Woochs point on planars because he doesnt understand/own them, let alone gets the difference between their technologys.

So, what is my "point on planars" other than having heard several of them first hand and finding that they don't match with my preferences? It's not like I'm claiming that Paradigm, B&W, and Bose speakers sound the same, right?

Are Bose 301 Speakers the best in there price range?

PS: And this is a friendly post, same as the last ones. Sorry if ir reads negatively. I am simply expressing my opinion! I have nothing personal against SirT or others. I just dont agree with their opinion sometimes.

"Friendly post" huh? Yeah, and the world is flat.

Feel free to respond to this post, but if you do it would only expose you as a lying sack of crap with these pathetic claims that you ignore my posts. Your posting history demonstrates an obsession with smearing people that don't share your opinions, and that pattern's pretty obvious and well established, no matter how you try to spin personal attacks, smears, and lies into "friendly" posts.