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  1. #1
    RGA
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    Closed threads an explanation and an apology

    A busy thread.

    I find it odd that that threads are being closed - I understand people swearing at me because they don't like differring opinions, and people get heated in their views. However, it would also be considerate of moderators, even if they dislike my view, to not have the last word in a thread spoken by the swearers with no chance to rebute lies or heated mistakes...people often overstate things when heated in life and on forums. Sometimes a corrective note is all that is required to alleviate an error.

    For instance the last thread a poster was obviously confused about a man named Peter Qvortrup and his owning a certain loudspeaker...I said that maybe he got the speaker as a dealer at dealer cost...indeed, I have no clue as to how he got the speaker...I do know he was a dealer before he partnered with Audio Note -- the company exhisted before he got there...he was a dealer originally he also formed and ran a company called Audio Innovation or Audible Illusions ( I get them mixed up) but he sold it and partnered in with Sony's Chief Engineer (Kondo-San) who had left and formed Audio Note because he didn't like the direction Sony was headed and because he was under financial limits (the old build me an amp for $199.00) not an engineer's dream I suspect.

    Audio Note UK formed in 1992 -- the Speaker in question was in existance in the late 1980s and no doubt Peter Q was looking for several speakers -- Kondo San and Audio Note were mostly known in high end circles for their amplifiers. Panels, planars and horns have in the past, contrary to what many believe, have had great success with Single Ended amplifiers examples can be seen from Quad who uses low powered tubes with their stats and Lynn Olsen who uses the Ongaku with his panels (Lynn's an expert on loudspeaker design and does some pretty even handed reviews for what it's worth and I believe has worked as a contractor for a number of other speaker makers). It was obvious that what panels need GOOD power not necessarily just more power.

    I want to be clear as obviously I was not, that I'm not here to attack panels nor am I here to attack Apogee...and nor am I suggesting that Peter Q was attacking panels or the Apogee.. I was attempting to compliment apogee in the sense that when a designer or businessman decides to run a company, he/she can either try and re-ivent a whell or take already good gear and make it better -- ESPECIALLY, if in their opinion what was already available ten years ago is just as good or better than those other companies who are re-inventing the wheel. This is why there are MANY very old technologies which have not left the speaker world because they were good they were good then and they are good now -- at the very least good FOR the people they are geared to. Horns for example have gone way out of style but there are many people who would have NOTHING else except a horn system-- same for Stat owners and One driver systems etc. Ultimately, even Peter Q, however he ended up buying the speakers, decided to get them in order to check them out and it is very likely if he did that he must have heard something meritous in them to start with in order to buy them -- ditto for the AvanteGuardes. He goes to all the shows where these people present so it must have been good enough to say gee let's see if our campany can take "THAT" to the next level --- Indeed, many companies are limited buy budgets and put out gear thatif they didn't cheap out in one area could have transcended the speaker to a whole new league of product...many B&W 801 owners have done such a thing to the speaker's crossovers.

    He is not tied to what he is selling now and if something comes up that he feels is better he will change...that's how it should be -- by all means one can disagree with what he feels is best. But whether one does or not is not really at issue -- since he could have chosen tons of speakers --- he could have taken over Apogee at the time -- indeed, a company DID buy apogee to keep the after market sales going and it failed. That is not the fault of the speaker maker or the product -- Reference 3a went out of business the first go round when the company was called 3M(no not that 3M). It failed because the company began to run away from Daniel Dehay and in an attempt to keep up with demand the prduct quality nosedived and it was dead in the water. This time around he got it right -- building only high end speakers in Europe and setting up a second shop in Canada to build the MM De Capo and probably now the Dulcet. The focus is tighter and smaller now and better. Dehay has since retired.

    My mistake has been to convey my listening experiences of X Y Z products in a place where people own X and my opinion ios such that Z is far better. This, in retrospect is unecessary or could have been stated in a differeing tone. All that was necessary of me was to say that I liked Z speaker for the following reasons - and I liked it more than X and Y...Instead though, I continued on past this point and started blasting X and Y for having the gall to be in existance as if the mere fact they were taking up floor space was a personal insult to me. And then to make it worse, I then go to a forum where many peaple own speakers X and Y and basically in not so many niceties tell them they really missed the boat...and even if I really believed in this position(which is moot) I should have had more tact. 2 phrases ring -- if you don;t have anything nice to say don't say it -- I don;t think this works fully as a reviewer or pseudo reviewer of equipment or movies -- but You're not Your Brother's Keeper, Or Live and Let Live is the saying more applicable perhaps. Ultimately, everyone needs to enjoy their system and if necessary this as a hobby.

    Indeed, to copy Steven R. Rochlin at enjoythemusic.com says --- "in the end what really matters is that you...

    Enjoy the Music,"

    RGA.

  2. #2
    cam
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    This is not an attack at you, but may I suggest something, change your name from RGA to something like, oh, say, RG-AN.

  3. #3
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    I gotta agree RGA, that thread should have stayed open. The personal attacks were minimal and let's be honest, we've seen a LOT worse at other sites. This was debate, pure and simple. If it got a little personal, so be it. RGA wasn't offended, I doubt Florian/Lord Magnepan was offended, and heaven knows I was laughing my a$$ off on the sidelines . If nothing else, it was amusing as hell for those of us that are used to these diatribes.

    Moderators, please don't be so quick to judge. Arguments are propelled by passion and passion is what makes life interesting. Considering music is one of the most passionate forms of expression and audiophiles base their love of this hobby on such, we should perhaps take a more lenient perspective before deeming a conversation as destructive.

  4. #4
    It's just a hobby
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    RGA,

    Many of those threads will have stayed open if you did not insist on always having the last word, namely oneupmanship, this thread in itself is evidence of what is essentially the recurring problem oneupmanship, I reported one of your posts in the last thread to the moderator because your post turned nasty for no reason, and it is not the first time that you turn nasty in threads when trying to defend the indefensible and move the thread far away from the original question, I accept that Florian was over the top in the last thread, For us to see a lot less closed threads, here are a few suggestions for a code of conduct

    • Carry on in good faith

    • Have the graciousness to accept correction or an equally valid differing opinion and resist the temptation to defend ridiculous positions.

    • Walk away from potentially explosive discussions, resist the temptation to have the last word

    • Respect other folks choice of equipment

    • Offer opinions without making derogatory comments about other folks equipment, musical taste or person

    • And above all treat other participants with respect, It is OK to disagree but it is not OK to send flames down the wire and outright turn nasty because of the disagreement
    Last edited by theaudiohobby; 04-05-2005 at 01:11 AM.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Without reading all the text on this page i must say a few things.

    I like RGA as a person, he definelty puts the most effort into replying to a persons questions.
    He is also quite knowledgeable when it comes to this hobby. The only thing that gets me is the AN banner thats flying over every post. I enjoy writing with RGA because he is one of those few members (just like me) that will talk the topic to the death !!!

    He likes his AN box speakers and i like my surface area speakers !! LOL.



    PS: And yes, i like to tick people off...it makes me happy

    I accept that Florian was over the top in the last thread
    Only a little bit
    Last edited by Florian; 04-05-2005 at 03:35 AM.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  6. #6
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    The problem also is some of you cant be wrong,even when you are and that keeps the threads going far to longgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg gggg.
    Look & Listen

  7. #7
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    This whole concept of rules and moderation should be really be hashed

    Plain and simple, people should learn WHEN TO MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS... If two people want to flame on in perpetuity hurling a few minor insults here and there, I think fundamental human rights afford them that...as long as we keep religion, race, etc, out of it...calling someone stupid isn't the end of the world...It does all a bit of good to hear it once in awhile.

    For eveyone offended by the content of a post, there's 2 more offended by the deletion of the post.

    While we're at it, let's bring back the DBT crowd...they provided some of the most entertaining flame wars I've ever had the priviledge of watching from the sidelines. This place hasn't been the same since that goofball Skeptic left.
    This isn't church, if you can't take a few shots, go back to some G-rated site...
    If you don't like what you read...STOP READING IT! Who the hell are you to tell the rest of us what we can and can't see here?

    I'm sure I'm not the only one here who doesn't read every single post of every single thread...I'm quite proficient at filtering out what I want from what I don't here...I'm willing to teach any member here who's too stupid to do the same my tried and proven method.

    What's the problem here? RGA and Florian made that thread really boring to me very quick so I quit reading...It was one of the easiest decisions I've ever made. If you aren't capable of doing the same, well, I've got news for you...might as well put a bullet through your skull right now and call it a day, because life is full of WAAAAYYY tougher situations than that.

  8. #8
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Whoa there, Kex.

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    While we're at it, let's bring back the DBT crowd...they provided some of the most entertaining flame wars I've ever had the priviledge of watching from the sidelines. This place hasn't been the same since that goofball Skeptic left.
    This isn't church, if you can't take a few shots, go back to some G-rated site...
    If you don't like what you read...STOP READING IT! Who the hell are you to tell the rest of us what we can and can't see here?
    I would love Skeptic to come back, but Skep was far different than Mtry, PC Tower, and RobotCzar. He was funny, informative, and would allow people to their own opinions. He wouldn't try to enforce his beliefs onto yours. Mtry would dissect your posts word by word, a trait that drove me freakin' nuts. You could tell Mtry the sky was blue and he would argue that your eyes aren't reliable and then list a litany of tests that must be run before conclusive proof can be attained. No thanks.

    Personally, I didn't think the discussion between RGA and Florian was that bad. They didn't seem to mind and like you said, if others were offended they should just stop reading. If you don't like what's on the radio, change the channel. Simple.

  9. #9
    Sgt. At Arms Worf101's Avatar
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    Folks...

    Ain't nothin' here, "life or death". There is nothing here that's going to lead to the physical harm of any living creature. Why fuss and fight over what's at best "esoterica" . Politics, religion, sports... sure... have at it. Ford vs. Chevy go ahead bash each other's brains in... Audonote vs. B&W c'mon bit of a stretch dontcha think? Someone like Velodyne, I like HSU, there's more'n enough space and air for both of us to breathe. I really don't know what the fight was about but there's more love here than hate and I like RGA/Danny Dalek and don't want him or any other oldtimers to leave in a huff.

    As for his apology, it's accepted, by me at least...

    Da Worfster

  10. #10
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Well, mtry was the exception to the rule I think...and I just avoided him for the most part, but it was nice to get that opinion in there...I feel it hasn't been as strongly represented here.

    FYI: Most of my post was meant to be sarcastic, but reading it again I don't think it captured that....don't take anything seriously!

  11. #11
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Thats right, dont take anything seriously !!! Not even this thread j/k
    I like writing with RGA and kicking him a few times, and then i get a kick back about planars and distortion etc...blah blah and then i go and tell him about all the wood effecting the sound, and the boundry reinforcments and how a box is slow blah blah blah.....its entertainmnet....
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  12. #12
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Well, mtry was the exception to the rule I think...and I just avoided him for the most part, but it was nice to get that opinion in there...I feel it hasn't been as strongly represented here.

    FYI: Most of my post was meant to be sarcastic, but reading it again I don't think it captured that....don't take anything seriously!
    I would never, NEVER avoid Mtry. I would charge at him like a brahma bull in a china shop. We would go at it for pages upon pages, thread upon thread until he got too tired, or ran out of answers.

    I know it is sometimes bothersome to have a thread closed, but you guys must understand that Eric does not want this board to return to the free for all that it was.(Worf knows what I am talking about). At one time it was so bad, that AR suffered a major "brain drain" as all the really knowledgeable posters left for a more peaceful land. I do not want us to return to that ever again. It doesn't take a word fight to reveal good information. It takes a question to do that.

    Being a moderator is not as easy as many of you think. It is a balancing act that is very difficult often times to balance. I have a very aggressive personality(I think that's the puerto rican in me) and I have had to tone my act down signficantly since becoming a moderator(You cannot imagine how many PM's I have gotten where folks wanted to revoke my moniker because they say I am too nice now)

    If a thread even looks like it is going out of control, or a personal attack has taken place, then that thread has to be closed. Forum rules are firm, no personal attacks period. At little heat is not bad, a firestorm is.
    Sir Terrence

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  13. #13
    Forum Regular thepogue's Avatar
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    well said me fine friend...

    and a wee bit o' blood sweet n' tears makes fer a good days work!! Ahhhh RGA's a good laddy...a wee bit think in the hat holder...but kind a Ms. O'schtims kitty....and that Lord what's he's name...yer only Lord over what'cha kin keep yer hands on I'd say....so let the boy's tussle....

    Pogue



    Quote Originally Posted by Worf101
    Ain't nothin' here, "life or death". There is nothing here that's going to lead to the physical harm of any living creature. Why fuss and fight over what's at best "esoterica" . Politics, religion, sports... sure... have at it. Ford vs. Chevy go ahead bash each other's brains in... Audonote vs. B&W c'mon bit of a stretch dontcha think? Someone like Velodyne, I like HSU, there's more'n enough space and air for both of us to breathe. I really don't know what the fight was about but there's more love here than hate and I like RGA/Danny Dalek and don't want him or any other oldtimers to leave in a huff.

    As for his apology, it's accepted, by me at least...

    Da Worfster
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  14. #14
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    When you KNOW you're right ...

    Consider the following:
    1. People might not need to know it;
    2. People might not want to know;
    3. There is just the slimmest chance that you could be wrong!
    It took me 50+ years to figure that out. You, RGA, seem to be learning it a bit quicker -- kudos to you.

    By the way, though our preferences may differ, I do appreciate that yours are based on a lot of careful listening.

  15. #15
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    Whether the thread in question was busy has no bearing. The facts were, and are, that these forums do not exist for the sole purpose of heated diatribes, no matter how funny or compelling they are to watch. It also does not matter if the parties to the argument are fine with the fact that they are getting out of hand. There are rules now, and they state that when things get out of hand they must be stopped for the good of the Forums. It is not, as some might argue, best to let these flame wars run their course. Like it or not this is a PUBLIC forum, and a thread like this can be damaging. The facts are that many new members and casual lurkers with audio questions flee the AR Forums after reading a threads like this. Hundreds can read them, and while most will have no idea of what the specifics of the thread are, they will most certainly get the tone and decide the AR forums is a place they would rather not visit. I for one do NOT want to see this happen. The new AR forums are in my opinion MUCH better than the old ones. There's more members, more GOOD technical information (Thank you Sir T!), and just an over all better feel to the place.

    Now, I'm not saying that everyone has to get along, or agree on all things. But, if you want to have heated debates please use some courtesy (that means no name calling) and it will be just fine with me.
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  16. #16
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    "...more GOOD technical information..."

    ...Puh-leeaase...don't make me laugh!!!

    There's more gibberish on these pages now than ever before, even if you account for space taken up by the endless flame-wars of old...

    You don't get any real info, you get useless anecdotal opinion...

    You get links to mfrs. "whitepapers" that support myth by use of "factoids" that have nil bearing on audio reproduction...

    I could go on, but rather than waste my time, and your space, suffice it to say you got what you hoped for...a warm and comfy place where any idotic idea is given the same measure of approval, where people are invited to throw money at problems(real or imagined) and there is little or no chance of legitimate discourse...particularly when certain "im-moderators" don't like the pounding they might be getting and lock threads to save their own sorry @$$e$...

    jimHJJ(...a bien tot...)

  17. #17
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...Puh-leeaase...don't make me laugh!!!

    There's more gibberish on these pages now than ever before, even if you account for space taken up by the endless flame-wars of old...

    You don't get any real info, you get useless anecdotal opinion...

    You get links to mfrs. "whitepapers" that support myth by use of "factoids" that have nil bearing on audio reproduction...

    I could go on, but rather than waste my time, and your space, suffice it to say you got what you hoped for...a warm and comfy place where any idotic idea is given the same measure of approval, where people are invited to throw money at problems(real or imagined) and there is little or no chance of legitimate discourse...particularly when certain "im-moderators" don't like the pounding they might be getting and lock threads to save their own sorry @$$e$...

    jimHJJ(...a bien tot...)
    Yawn...............Bitterness is so unattractive........
    Sir Terrence

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  18. #18
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Well i do get the point that was made by our moderator, but must agree that a happy place for all with no critical discussions is not good either. RGA is usually flooding the pages with tons or pointless whitepapers and using names that even i can make up.

    People just have to learn and accept that many ways lead to happyness, one is getting laid and others are cars and HIFI.

    I like planars and boxes. I own both and like them together, but i just hate reading and arguing over some stupid whitepaper in every single thread and thats why i got mad.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  19. #19
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Florian,
    Do you really believe this is a happy happy place with no opposing discourse to any arguement? I do not believe this is so. Apparently certain parties want to see this place go back to the loudest shouter wins the arguement mentality, and that is NOT a good thing. I think if certain parties don't like what AR is, they should find somewhere where they can scream, shout, and call names till they turn purple. This ain't that place anymore, and certain individuals ought to realize that and get over it.

    I think a bitter filter has blinded certain people that visit this board.
    Sir Terrence

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  20. #20
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Oh TtT, oh TtT, oh TtT...

    ...that YOU should choose to respond to my opinionated "state of the site" message to Geoffcin is amusing...and quite telling.

    Perhaps you should consider changing you moniker to Sir Terrence the Tendentious...

    jimHJJ(...like Yogi said "you could look it up!"...)

  21. #21
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Closed Thread. LMAO That get you guys pissed off. LOL. Geez,just keep doing what your doing and they will close when needed and i havent seen to many closed. If somebody wants to be pigheaded or post BS,get out of the thread.
    Look & Listen

  22. #22
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...that YOU should choose to respond to my opinionated "state of the site" message to Geoffcin is amusing...and quite telling.

    Perhaps you should consider changing you moniker to Sir Terrence the Tendentious...

    jimHJJ(...like Yogi said "you could look it up!"...)
    I didn't know we allow six year olds on this board!!
    Sir Terrence

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  23. #23
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Perhaps you should go...

    ...censure yourself...

    I find your tone condescending, inflammatory and insulting...perhaps someone over there with moderating powers far above mortal man might look askance at that sort of behavior...or is it as I have always suspected it to be, a textbook case of "...do as I say and not as I do..."?

    jimHJJ(...tendentious...get it?...)

  24. #24
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Hey shok...

    ...addressing anyone in particular?...or is this just another example of your random "stream of conciousness" style?

    jimHJJ(...just wunnerin'...)

  25. #25
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...censure yourself...

    I find your tone condescending, inflammatory and insulting...perhaps someone over there with moderating powers far above mortal man might look askance at that sort of behavior...or is it as I have always suspected it to be, a textbook case of "...do as I say and not as I do..."?

    jimHJJ(...tendentious...get it?...)
    Alright somebody come and get your kid, it has run amuck again!!!
    Sir Terrence

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