MMA: Lemme speak on this...

[bobsticks]

Anybody out there like the fight game? Throughout the years the various MMA federations have quietly advanced to the point where the situation is reminiscent of boxing a few decades ago...a lot of talent and several federations competing for legitimacy and the consumer dollars.

It's true too that the sport has evolved from a savage no-rules, no-holds-barred backroom activity to a well-regulated and more consumer-friendly activity.

Yahoo Sports maintains a ranking system for the various players throughout the world. Granted, the viewpoint is probably lacking for some of the fighters from lesser federations but mostly they seem to stick to some bizarre voting pattern based on the concept of "best pound for pound" fighter.

There seems to be a lot of discussion across the net on the top three, George St. Pierre, Fedor Emilianenko, and Anderson Silva.
All three are from different weight classes and have displayed at times almost superhuman capabilities and talents ion their own way.

Frankly, I prefer Emilianenko. Throughout his career he has consistently fought top performers (admittedly less so in the last few years) and has, in fact, faced several fighters that outwiegh him by 100 lbs. or more. His one "loss' came from a stoppage after an opponent used an illegal maneuver.

Clearly, all three---and indeed the entire top ten---is comprised of elite athletes and to that extent the conversation prolly hasn't got one "right answer". But, really, that's just me being diplomatic. Fedor is a demon, a massive Russian sambo champion and destroyer of anything in front of him...

Thoughts? Comments?

[Worf101]

I like the idea of MMA and I even like watching it at times. It has increased in popularity for several reasons:

1. It cleaned up its act and stopped trying to be "Bloodsport".
2. Boxing has no heavyweight division to speak of anymore.
3. These guys actually FIGHT!!!!
4. Boxing is completely rudderless.
5. MMA is cheaper to promote.

I like it, but I see it going the way of boxing quite quickly though. The problems I see on MMA's future are:

1. The drift towards "manufactured" talent (Kimbo Slice).

2. Too many federations and sanctioning bodies like boxing vying to dominance with too many champions.

3. Still a tad too bloody for granma and granpa.

4. Great demographics (young horny males) but they don't buy much just pizza and bootleged/ripped music and movies.

But all in all there are currently more pluses than minuses.

Da Worfster

[kexodusc]

Oooh yeah, now you're speakin' my language.

Best lb for lb fighter? I dunno...I tend to agree with Silva being the best - he's looked the most impressive to me over his last few fights. IMHO, GSP has faced the best competition of the top 3 the last few years, and IIRC, he's the only one with a loss to Serra. Everyone knows about his personal problems leading up to the fight and it just shows how narrow the difference is between the good and the great fighters. If it wasn't for that I'd say GSP hands down, but he never should have lost to Serra. In fact, in the last 2 years I don't think any fighter has improved as much as GSP and that's scary...except for maybe Penn and that fight should be great.

Emilianenko beat guys like Coleman, Hunt, and Lindland rather convincingly, but I can't say they were top of the weight class.

Silva just makes it look easy...that guy is a treat to watch.

[3-LockBox]

One of the reasons that MMA (in its various forms) has flourished is the access. Its on a few different channels now, and many of the big bouts are seen on TV on a semi-regular basis - when's the last time you saw a relevant boxing match? How many current boxers can you name?

Remember when most of us were kids and guys like Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, George Forman and Ken Norton were either fighting on TV (even if it was taped) or they were appearing on talk shows and variety shows. The heavy weight division was covered by all media and most all champion boxers were household names.

Boxing went the way of pay-per-view for all of its big bouts, even the preliminary fights. Closed circuit TV is not new to pro boxing; most all the championship fights were on closed circuit and didn't get aired on regular TV till about a week later, but many of boxing's big bouts were shown in prime-time - I remember watching Jerry Clooney and Ken Norton fighting for the right to face Larry Holmes - in primetime! Muhammad Ali's loss to Leon Spinks was live, so was the phenominal rematch. I saw a lot of boxing on TV, whether it was the heavy weight division or the lower divisions, which by the '80s had over-taken the heavy weight class in popularity. ABC sports used to showcase ameture boxing every Saturday.

But it was also the '80s when boxing splintered into so many different federations that it mimmicked pro wrestling (where every TV station that carried wrestling had its own 'world' champion). It became confusing trying to keep track of the middle weight classes because each sanctioning body had a different name for the same weight class. Then came what should have been the guy who could resusitate boxing in Mike Tyson, but then he became a three-ring circus and imploded.

Or, you could just blame Don King.

But Worf is right, MMA id getting close to boxing territory with the championships getting more and more political, where marketability becomes a factor, instead of the action.

But those who diss MMA have no idea what its about. These are technically gifted athletes. I know people see those choke outs and submission holds and think its barbaric, but these guys are in less danger grappling than if they spent 10 to 12 rounds taking head shots. Arm and leg injuries heal - dane bramage don't.

[bobsticks]

Some thoughts:

1) Absolutely true that there are too many sanctioning bodies but I suspect that we'll see some of that disappear as some go bankrupt or are cannibalized by UFC. Them Fertittas and Jackass Dana are only beginning to really grasp the fight game. It does currently lead to an unnecessary level of poltical intrigue into potential matchups and never-will-be's.

2) While I don't disagree that Kimbo is "manufactured" I don't necessarily think that it's wrong. Anybody with over a million YouTube Hits is gonna be some good promo. And I think, maybe uncharacteristically of the fight game in general, they're treating him right.
Kimbo started off as nothing more than a skilled brawler, which is impressive enough but not what it takes for success at this level. There's a rare clip out there of him going ten minutes with Sean Gannon, a former UFC fighter and cop. Gannon was never even very good and took Kimbo to the limit.
Point being, they're doing the right thing by having Baz Rutten train him. The last thing anyone needs is another Bob Sapp and without some major ground training and cardio Big Slice was well on the way. I don't think he'll ever be the "Great Black Hope" but he could develop into a force to be reckoned with.

3) A compelling argument can be made for any of the top three. Silva has looked great but has also taken some losses. GSP the same, although his recent fight with Fitch wa a one-sided pummeling...and Fitch ain't no joke.

I'll tell you my reasoning behind supporting Fedor---and agin, this is nothing more than an opinion and preference---but the man is a beast. I think more than any other he has the ability to fight against any opponent. He can take on the small guys and, in fact, take on and convincingly defeat the Super Heavywieghts. I'm not sure Silva or St. Pierre could take on Zulu or Hung Man Choi or even Big Nog.

Throw into the equation his ability to withstand punishment and his performances are even more amazing. Ever see his bout with Randleman...ol' boy took a suplex right on the noggin' and came up completely unphased. Of note too would be the fact that unlike many who fight in one sport under limited contract, Fedor regularly defends his World Sambo Championship, another combat sport at which he's never lost.


Overall my own sentiments mirror 3LB's. There's an amazing number of skilled athletes and while the difference between "good" and "great" may not be that much t acounts for something. I think the sport has alot to offer and a bright future.

[Worf101]

I'm not dissin' it at all, I find it fascinating to be in on a sport in its infancy. And I know they're phenominal athletes and alike. I just hope they can hold it together and make it work the "right" way and don't decend in to the depths that boxing (also my former fave sport 3LB) sunk to.

Da Worfster

[3-LockBox]

I'm not dissin' it at all,

I didn't think you were - I wasn't really referring to anyone participating in this thread. My wife for one, hates it, but then again, she hates boxing.

Yeah, I hope the MMAs can avoid the political pitfalls that boxing fell into, and I also hope it avoids not only manufactured talent, but also manufactured outcomes. Pro wrestling has long been known for its predetermined outcomes, but still makes big bucks; sure its on the wane, but its survived for 50 years as is.

[bobsticks]

So much for Chuck Liddell. Mebbe he and Don Frye can team-up for the first ever tag-team MMA fight against Ken Shamrock and William Shatner.

[kexodusc]

Some thoughts:

1) Absolutely true that there are too many sanctioning bodies but I suspect that we'll see some of that disappear as some go bankrupt or are cannibalized by UFC. Them Fertittas and Jackass Dana are only beginning to really grasp the fight game. It does currently lead to an unnecessary level of poltical intrigue into potential matchups and never-will-be's.

I think with boxing as a precedent, we won't ever have to worry about MMA going that route - as long as there's tv ratings, there'll be UFC on TV. That'll sell the PPV. Really, they've followed the pro-wrestling blueprint more than the pro-boxing blueprint. How successful Pride and Elite and Affliction etc all do? Who knows. Competition is good IMO, but I hope greed and greedy promoters don't ruin the chance for all the dream fights we want to see.

3) A compelling argument can be made for any of the top three. Silva has looked great but has also taken some losses. GSP the same, although his recent fight with Fitch wa a one-sided pummeling...and Fitch ain't no joke.

I'll tell you my reasoning behind supporting Fedor---and agin, this is nothing more than an opinion and preference---but the man is a beast. I think more than any other he has the ability to fight against any opponent. He can take on the small guys and, in fact, take on and convincingly defeat the Super Heavywieghts. I'm not sure Silva or St. Pierre could take on Zulu or Hung Man Choi or even Big Nog.

Throw into the equation his ability to withstand punishment and his performances are even more amazing. Ever see his bout with Randleman...ol' boy took a suplex right on the noggin' and came up completely unphased. Of note too would be the fact that unlike many who fight in one sport under limited contract, Fedor regularly defends his World Sambo Championship, another combat sport at which he's never lost.

Hmm, yeah...if you had asked me best fighter period I'd probably have taken Fedor as I do think he would overwhelm GSP and probably scare Silva even...gawd that'd be a dream fight...but lb for lb my completely unscientific method forces me to discount the man's size to equalize the playing field a bit. Maybe I'm wrong. Silva looks so precise and I don't think Fedor's faced anything close to a fighter at that level.

In terms of being able to fight any opponent - I think that is also GSP's strength. He's out wrestled good wrestlers, out brawled strikers and out BJJ'd grapplers. Seems he doesn't get the respect he deserves, wonder if it's a language thing? The man's an expert at nothing but very good at everything - the new prototypical MMA fighter. I think his only flaw is he's human, perhaps more emotional than other fighters and has to work at his mental game. I tend to believe in recent years he has fought a lot more high caliber opponents (not necessarily more popular or bigger names though) than the other 2 (victims of the lack of depth in their weight classes). Some of those guys are big names, but haven't been big deals for a few years. Let's face it, BJ Penn at it his cheeseburger eating worse is probably as good as any #2 at any weight class. And I didn't think that match should have gone to the split, GSP was born that day.
With the heavyweights, the 1 punch-ko striking game plays a bigger role and it daws draw bigger crowds - skill for skill I think the smaller guys bring more.

Man, if you ask me again next week I'll probably switch from Silva to GSP or Fedor...lb for lb questions are always tough, but fun.

Overall my own sentiments mirror 3LB's. There's an amazing number of skilled athletes and while the difference between "good" and "great" may not be that much t acounts for something. I think the sport has alot to offer and a bright future.

It is part of the new pop culture in a big way - the goofy skeletal-print black and white T-shirts, and the surge in local MMA startup competitions all over North America are evidence of that. What is it with 18-30 year olds and need to look "tuff"? Anyway, MMA isn't knew - it's been kinda popular since 1993, and if not for all the legal problems of the "old UFC" in the mid/late 90's, we would have been where we are a lot sooner. Dana White, for all his egomaniacal flaws, has done a good job selling the technical side of MMA instead of the brute gore side of it.
Why aren't these guys at the Olympics?

[kexodusc]

I think Arlovski's biggest weakness is himself. The dude has scary good offense and is competent on the ground being a sambo wiz. He seems to get in the most trouble when he's trying to finish guys off though.
This guy makes good fighters look vulnerable. The 1st loss to Sylvia he almost put him away and got stunned, and we'll always be left wondering how much better he would have looked if he didn't get seriously injured during the 1st round of their swing match. Despite 2 losses most people I know think Arlovski actually established himself as the better fighter. I dunno about that, but he proved he's a contender.

I don't know if he's going to beat Fedor. But I think for the first time in a long time Fedor's going to see an opponent that he can't dominate on the ground and put away with an armbar.

To be honest, that matchup has more intigue for me than Fedor/Randy does.

Is Fedor fighting Arlovski just to complete a contractual agreement so he can go fight Couture? I'd worry about keeping his focus.

[bobsticks]

I think Arlovski's biggest weakness is himself. The dude has scary good offense and is competent on the ground being a sambo wiz. He seems to get in the most trouble when he's trying to finish guys off though...

...I don't know if he's going to beat Fedor. But I think for the first time in a long time Fedor's going to see an opponent that he can't dominate on the ground and put away with an armbar.

Interestingly enough you were right on a couple of calls. Arlovski's boxing and sambo did payoff. He was clearly well on the way to winning the first round on points. From a technical standpoint he looked outstanding...hands up and tight, using his reach advantage to the fullest extent and using a variety of lowkicks to keep Fedor honest...

...and then he tries to finish with a high knee?! His overconfidence brought him too close to a looping overhand paw that pummeled him into unconsciousness before his body hit the ground.

For the first time I think the combination of physical gift and technique brought something against Fedor that, if only for a moment, puzzled him. To Arlovski's credit he was able to back The Last Emperor up, which even CroCop (who took him to a rare decision) was unable to do.

What occured to me most was that Arlovski looked like a phenomenally trained athlete who had been conditioned to fight while Fedor moved, breathed, and reacted more like an animal. The coup de grâce was so vicious and feral I imagine it would actually confound a trained fighter more than it would a layman. To the uninitiated it would seem a lightning-fast strike from nowhere whereas those in the know will marvel at the unconventional angle that appeared as nothing more than muscle-memory reaction.

Presumably, Barnett's dismantling of Yvel puts him as the number one contender. It'll be interesting to see how the next title bout develops.

[kexodusc]

Interestingly enough you were right on a couple of calls. Arlovski's boxing and sambo did payoff. He was clearly well on the way to winning the first round on points. From a technical standpoint he looked outstanding...hands up and tight, using his reach advantage to the fullest extent and using a variety of lowkicks to keep Fedor honest...

...and then he tries to finish with a high knee?! His overconfidence brought him too close to a looping overhand paw that pummeled him into unconsciousness before his body hit the ground.

For the first time I think the combination of physical gift and technique brought something against Fedor that, if only for a moment, puzzled him. To Arlovski's credit he was able to back The Last Emperor up, which even CroCop (who took him to a rare decision) was unable to do.

What occured to me most was that Arlovski looked like a phenomenally trained athlete who had been conditioned to fight while Fedor moved, breathed, and reacted more like an animal. The coup de grâce was so vicious and feral I imagine it would actually confound a trained fighter more than it would a layman. To the uninitiated it would seem a lightning-fast strike from nowhere whereas those in the know will marvel at the unconventional angle that appeared as nothing more than muscle-memory reaction.

Presumably, Barnett's dismantling of Yvel puts him as the number one contender. It'll be interesting to see how the next title bout develops.

Arlovski looked a bit "off" to me. Maybe I'm seeing things but he looked, well not himself. There were a few exchanges and spots where he did the right thing of course, but he seemed to be lacking that predatory instinct that made him so good a few years ago. Maybe he's thinking too much for his own good? I dunno. Easy for me to say when I don't have to worry about a knuckle sandwich from hell knocking my chin down my throat.

Fedor looked very mortal to me. Maybe he's getting old or something. Didn't he just lose a match at Sambo? Funny how a single fight can affect perception. Maybe it was the production value or something but these guys both dropped big time on my top 10 lists. I'm starting to wonder if Fedor really is talking tough but dodging the real contenders like his critics so often suggest?

Yvel is still the guy everyone loves to hate, including me.. I agree, Barnett must be #1 contender now.

GSP vs Penn is the one I'm drooling over. My 2 favs. I love how the UFC is marketing GSP to be the underdog "good guy" and Penn to be the cocky badass playboy type. Ridiculous. Both are decent human beings and both are pretty classy as far as that goes. I think Penn has more sense on what's good for him vs what's good for the UFC than GSP does and hasn't fit the poster boy profile they wanted.

I think Penn wins the rematch with precision striking, evasion and a patient game plan. He'll wait for GSP to make a mistake. GSP's had more "big fights" lately IMO and he fights to win, sometimes taking unnecessary risks. Penn's fights have mostly been over before they started so he fights just not to lose, and that'll keep him out of trouble.

I could be wrong though, as much as Penn's improved his conditioning, GSP's improved his all around game, and he's no longer intimidated by his opponents. Both are different fighters from the first matchup.

Dunno how the UFC tops that one? Fedor vs Lesnar/Mir?

[bobsticks]

I agree with your take on GSP/Penn and I'm stating now that I'm pulling for GSP heavily. That's not an endoresment that he'll win but more of a recognition that I consider him a good guy. Clearly it could go either way.

Where does UFC go from here? Your guess is as good as mine. Therea are, and will remain, some doubts about Lesnar and until he develops enough to beat a top-tiered opponent convincingly that's the way it is. None the less, Mir/Lesnar 2 should draw some heat as many are interested in that development and it doesn't hurt that Mir dispatched Big Nog in short order. The rest of the heavies don't really match up currently though Shane Corwin has the potential and there's word that Dana's bringing Allistair Overeem in.

SPOILER PREDICTION***--over here in the good ol' U.S. of A where them stair-royd thingies are illegal Overeem will be a shadow of his former self.

I'm most disappointed in the lack of real competition for A. Silva in either the 175 lb. or 205 lb. divisions. After last night, and indee his previous fight, the only person I'm really salivating to see fight Anderson is, believe it or not, Vitor Belfort. "The Phenom" is back...or at least it looked that way in te 28 seconds and one punch that it took to KtFO Matt "The Law" Lindland. I still don't thnk Vitor will beat Anderson, I'm just sayin'...

Sometimes I think we're conditioned by some of the amazing offensive tour de forces that we've witnessed to underestimate the thinking aspect of these things. I respect your opinion but, to an extent, found parts of both fighters' performances last night ipressive. If AA looked unnatural it's because IMO he was concentrating on adopting a style slightly foreign to his natural tendencies. I felt he used his reach advantage well, avoided the ground and, surprisingly, used leg kicks effectively. It was his own hubris that was the end of him (...and the Romans).

For Fedor, perhaps, the most impressive part of the night was his recognition of his limitations and playing an effective role despite them. He waited for his opportunity and skillfully implemented a counterstrike resulting in the multi-directional collision between AA's head and the mat. One observer noted that Andre got "Arlofted"... I think some credit has to be given for remaining ice-cold in such an adrenaline-soaked situation.

[kexodusc]

Hmm, yeah, fair assessment.

You're right, Silva needs some heavy duty competition fast. Maybe he could put on 30 lbs or so and take on the big boys?
Maybe they should just tie one arm behind his back? Maybe he could meet the winner of GSP and Penn in some hybrid weight class match? Probably not fair, but it'd be neat.

[kexodusc]

Mwa ha ha ha ha.

Wasn't shocked to see Evans have a bad fight and still be better than the always entertaining Griffin, but to see Rampage destroy Silva like that...wow. Worth every penny. And I kinda thought Mir would pull this off but Nog looked old and slow in there...

Lesnar vs Mir 2 is gonna be f'n huge. I love the beastly potential Lesnar has but I'm not sure he's ready for the Mir we saw last night. But he did kind of dominate him in the first fight until he got caught...can't wait for that one.

[bobsticks]

Lesnar vs Mir 2 is gonna be f'n huge. I love the beastly potential Lesnar has but I'm not sure he's ready for the Mir we saw last night. But he did kind of dominate him in the first fight until he got caught...can't wait for that one.

Yes, Brock has improved exponentially. That said, he's still light years away from being in the same skill level as Mir.

To stand any kind of a chance he's gotta go with the girl that brought him to the dance. He's a big, corn-fed Nebraska farmboy with an abundance of physical gifts. I think he needs to train at 280 in altitude and drop to 260. He's got to come out better conditioned and try to keep it standing...

...meanwhile Mir is going to be looking for the submission from the ground, and, against Lesnar's admittedly limited BJJ skillset he could make it very clinical something like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8dJJ...eature=related

[bobsticks]

.....

[kexodusc]

He's only half the man he used to be...

[Gerall]

I have been watching MMA since the early years where you got the underground tapes from a video store. Couldnt have them on the shelves. Prior to that I did go to most of the closed circuit matches. What turned my against boxing is that the judging became much like figure skating, based on history, reputation, and expectations, as opposed to who actually won the match. Too many obvious policical decisions drove me away.

[bobsticks]

I have been watching MMA since the early years where you got the underground tapes from a video store. Couldnt have them on the shelves. Prior to that I did go to most of the closed circuit matches. What turned my against boxing is that the judging became much like figure skating, based on history, reputation, and expectations, as opposed to who actually won the match. Too many obvious policical decisions drove me away.

Hey Gerall,

Let's not kid ourselves, MMA has it's share of politics too. The previous convo Kex and I were having about Machida reflects a most basic business politik but it goes further. The UFC has always had a bit, from the stranglehold the Gracie family exerted to the current titl scene and virtually anything that comes out of Dana White's mouth regarding Fedor Emilianenko.

Still, on the whole, it is a refreshing change and I love the fcat that within the timeframe of a few second match the entire championship landscape can change.

[kexodusc]

Wow, I was not expecting a total, one-sided domination like that. GSP has obviously elevated his game by quite a bit since the fight in 2006, but I really thought Penn did too. Didn't look like it here as GSP just beat Penn like he owed him money from start to finish.

A friend of mine boldly suggests that the lack of competition for Penn vs the quality of opponents for GSP might have misled people about how close this one could be. Sherk, Pulver, etc vs Serra, Hughes on so on. Yeah maybe. I still think the size/weight differences gave GSP an advantage, it's tough to fight biology.

Penn did get carried away with his hype-talk and some of the GSP bashing was a bit much, but I never got the sense there was any animosity between the two so maybe it was just gamesmanship. Wonder what's next for Penn?

A Silva/GSP fight is already being talked about,

Ha ha...Bonner lost.

[bobsticks]

"Rush" put on a clinic. I doubt many expected that level of outright domination. Though it can be said that he overpowered Penn in all physical aspects, Pierre seemed extremely focused and rather tenacious. Penn seemed like that soft, schoolyard bully that finally gets a dramatc comeuppance.

I think the biggest winner of the night was Lyoto Machida. None can argue with his record but if Dana White has shown us anything since the passing of the guard from early days of Royce it's that he refuses to put on boring fights. While Machida has always presented a frustrating and confusing style I doubt that you'd disagree that, at times, he's put on some technically magnificent yawners. He needed that kind of a clearcut, stand-up win to moe into the title picture. Dana's gotta appease the WWE demographic afterall. The word "domination" again comes to mind...as does the word "slobberknocker"...

I'm getting tired of the phrase "pound for pound".

[kexodusc]

I'm getting tired of the phrase "pound for pound".

In my mind GSP earned the title "best fighter in the world" last night lb for lb or otherwise - it's one thing to beat a guy like BJ, it's another to kick his ass and make it look easy. But it's really not fair to compare fighters across weight classes - so much of the bigger guy's games is knockout power and explosive offence, there's more stamina and technique in the smaller classes. I can't imagine a guy like BJ lasting long vs Mir or Lesnar, but I doubt many would argue he's got better skills. Each fighter works to be the best in their weight class, not win fantasy match-ups.

I agree with everything you say about Machida - painful to watch, but nobody can figure him out yet. He's far more cerebral in the ring than most bloodthirsty fans can appreciate. I'd give him the shot - pretty or not he's cutting up the opposition. Dana should think of how big the pop will be once a more mainstream figher KO's him! Everyone wants to see him lose. If he became champ and held on to it a few years, eventually a challenger would knock him off and a legend would be born. You can't write a better script.

[bobsticks]

Hey Kex,

You got any vaseline?

...I think GSP's new cornerman will need to borrow some...

...hehehe

[kexodusc]

Hey Kex,

You got any vaseline?

...I think GSP's new cornerman will need to borrow some...

...hehehe

LOL. I can only assume Penn's camp was complaining about the additional weight advantage the vaseline gave GSP over BJ, because he was on top beating the tar out of him for most of the meaningful seconds of that fight.

It's not like they don't all grease up on baby oil or whatever in the room before the fight...

I thought Dana's comments were the best "Some Vaseline on a guy's back didn't change the outcome of that fight, but you don't do it."