MMA: Lemme speak on this...

[bobsticks]

Anybody out there like the fight game? Throughout the years the various MMA federations have quietly advanced to the point where the situation is reminiscent of boxing a few decades ago...a lot of talent and several federations competing for legitimacy and the consumer dollars.

It's true too that the sport has evolved from a savage no-rules, no-holds-barred backroom activity to a well-regulated and more consumer-friendly activity.

Yahoo Sports maintains a ranking system for the various players throughout the world. Granted, the viewpoint is probably lacking for some of the fighters from lesser federations but mostly they seem to stick to some bizarre voting pattern based on the concept of "best pound for pound" fighter.

There seems to be a lot of discussion across the net on the top three, George St. Pierre, Fedor Emilianenko, and Anderson Silva.
All three are from different weight classes and have displayed at times almost superhuman capabilities and talents ion their own way.

Frankly, I prefer Emilianenko. Throughout his career he has consistently fought top performers (admittedly less so in the last few years) and has, in fact, faced several fighters that outwiegh him by 100 lbs. or more. His one "loss' came from a stoppage after an opponent used an illegal maneuver.

Clearly, all three---and indeed the entire top ten---is comprised of elite athletes and to that extent the conversation prolly hasn't got one "right answer". But, really, that's just me being diplomatic. Fedor is a demon, a massive Russian sambo champion and destroyer of anything in front of him...

Thoughts? Comments?

[Worf101]

I like the idea of MMA and I even like watching it at times. It has increased in popularity for several reasons:

1. It cleaned up its act and stopped trying to be "Bloodsport".
2. Boxing has no heavyweight division to speak of anymore.
3. These guys actually FIGHT!!!!
4. Boxing is completely rudderless.
5. MMA is cheaper to promote.

I like it, but I see it going the way of boxing quite quickly though. The problems I see on MMA's future are:

1. The drift towards "manufactured" talent (Kimbo Slice).

2. Too many federations and sanctioning bodies like boxing vying to dominance with too many champions.

3. Still a tad too bloody for granma and granpa.

4. Great demographics (young horny males) but they don't buy much just pizza and bootleged/ripped music and movies.

But all in all there are currently more pluses than minuses.

Da Worfster

[kexodusc]

Oooh yeah, now you're speakin' my language.

Best lb for lb fighter? I dunno...I tend to agree with Silva being the best - he's looked the most impressive to me over his last few fights. IMHO, GSP has faced the best competition of the top 3 the last few years, and IIRC, he's the only one with a loss to Serra. Everyone knows about his personal problems leading up to the fight and it just shows how narrow the difference is between the good and the great fighters. If it wasn't for that I'd say GSP hands down, but he never should have lost to Serra. In fact, in the last 2 years I don't think any fighter has improved as much as GSP and that's scary...except for maybe Penn and that fight should be great.

Emilianenko beat guys like Coleman, Hunt, and Lindland rather convincingly, but I can't say they were top of the weight class.

Silva just makes it look easy...that guy is a treat to watch.

[3-LockBox]

One of the reasons that MMA (in its various forms) has flourished is the access. Its on a few different channels now, and many of the big bouts are seen on TV on a semi-regular basis - when's the last time you saw a relevant boxing match? How many current boxers can you name?

Remember when most of us were kids and guys like Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, George Forman and Ken Norton were either fighting on TV (even if it was taped) or they were appearing on talk shows and variety shows. The heavy weight division was covered by all media and most all champion boxers were household names.

Boxing went the way of pay-per-view for all of its big bouts, even the preliminary fights. Closed circuit TV is not new to pro boxing; most all the championship fights were on closed circuit and didn't get aired on regular TV till about a week later, but many of boxing's big bouts were shown in prime-time - I remember watching Jerry Clooney and Ken Norton fighting for the right to face Larry Holmes - in primetime! Muhammad Ali's loss to Leon Spinks was live, so was the phenominal rematch. I saw a lot of boxing on TV, whether it was the heavy weight division or the lower divisions, which by the '80s had over-taken the heavy weight class in popularity. ABC sports used to showcase ameture boxing every Saturday.

But it was also the '80s when boxing splintered into so many different federations that it mimmicked pro wrestling (where every TV station that carried wrestling had its own 'world' champion). It became confusing trying to keep track of the middle weight classes because each sanctioning body had a different name for the same weight class. Then came what should have been the guy who could resusitate boxing in Mike Tyson, but then he became a three-ring circus and imploded.

Or, you could just blame Don King.

But Worf is right, MMA id getting close to boxing territory with the championships getting more and more political, where marketability becomes a factor, instead of the action.

But those who diss MMA have no idea what its about. These are technically gifted athletes. I know people see those choke outs and submission holds and think its barbaric, but these guys are in less danger grappling than if they spent 10 to 12 rounds taking head shots. Arm and leg injuries heal - dane bramage don't.

[bobsticks]

Some thoughts:

1) Absolutely true that there are too many sanctioning bodies but I suspect that we'll see some of that disappear as some go bankrupt or are cannibalized by UFC. Them Fertittas and Jackass Dana are only beginning to really grasp the fight game. It does currently lead to an unnecessary level of poltical intrigue into potential matchups and never-will-be's.

2) While I don't disagree that Kimbo is "manufactured" I don't necessarily think that it's wrong. Anybody with over a million YouTube Hits is gonna be some good promo. And I think, maybe uncharacteristically of the fight game in general, they're treating him right.
Kimbo started off as nothing more than a skilled brawler, which is impressive enough but not what it takes for success at this level. There's a rare clip out there of him going ten minutes with Sean Gannon, a former UFC fighter and cop. Gannon was never even very good and took Kimbo to the limit.
Point being, they're doing the right thing by having Baz Rutten train him. The last thing anyone needs is another Bob Sapp and without some major ground training and cardio Big Slice was well on the way. I don't think he'll ever be the "Great Black Hope" but he could develop into a force to be reckoned with.

3) A compelling argument can be made for any of the top three. Silva has looked great but has also taken some losses. GSP the same, although his recent fight with Fitch wa a one-sided pummeling...and Fitch ain't no joke.

I'll tell you my reasoning behind supporting Fedor---and agin, this is nothing more than an opinion and preference---but the man is a beast. I think more than any other he has the ability to fight against any opponent. He can take on the small guys and, in fact, take on and convincingly defeat the Super Heavywieghts. I'm not sure Silva or St. Pierre could take on Zulu or Hung Man Choi or even Big Nog.

Throw into the equation his ability to withstand punishment and his performances are even more amazing. Ever see his bout with Randleman...ol' boy took a suplex right on the noggin' and came up completely unphased. Of note too would be the fact that unlike many who fight in one sport under limited contract, Fedor regularly defends his World Sambo Championship, another combat sport at which he's never lost.


Overall my own sentiments mirror 3LB's. There's an amazing number of skilled athletes and while the difference between "good" and "great" may not be that much t acounts for something. I think the sport has alot to offer and a bright future.

[Worf101]

I'm not dissin' it at all, I find it fascinating to be in on a sport in its infancy. And I know they're phenominal athletes and alike. I just hope they can hold it together and make it work the "right" way and don't decend in to the depths that boxing (also my former fave sport 3LB) sunk to.

Da Worfster

[kexodusc]

Some thoughts:

1) Absolutely true that there are too many sanctioning bodies but I suspect that we'll see some of that disappear as some go bankrupt or are cannibalized by UFC. Them Fertittas and Jackass Dana are only beginning to really grasp the fight game. It does currently lead to an unnecessary level of poltical intrigue into potential matchups and never-will-be's.

I think with boxing as a precedent, we won't ever have to worry about MMA going that route - as long as there's tv ratings, there'll be UFC on TV. That'll sell the PPV. Really, they've followed the pro-wrestling blueprint more than the pro-boxing blueprint. How successful Pride and Elite and Affliction etc all do? Who knows. Competition is good IMO, but I hope greed and greedy promoters don't ruin the chance for all the dream fights we want to see.

3) A compelling argument can be made for any of the top three. Silva has looked great but has also taken some losses. GSP the same, although his recent fight with Fitch wa a one-sided pummeling...and Fitch ain't no joke.

I'll tell you my reasoning behind supporting Fedor---and agin, this is nothing more than an opinion and preference---but the man is a beast. I think more than any other he has the ability to fight against any opponent. He can take on the small guys and, in fact, take on and convincingly defeat the Super Heavywieghts. I'm not sure Silva or St. Pierre could take on Zulu or Hung Man Choi or even Big Nog.

Throw into the equation his ability to withstand punishment and his performances are even more amazing. Ever see his bout with Randleman...ol' boy took a suplex right on the noggin' and came up completely unphased. Of note too would be the fact that unlike many who fight in one sport under limited contract, Fedor regularly defends his World Sambo Championship, another combat sport at which he's never lost.

Hmm, yeah...if you had asked me best fighter period I'd probably have taken Fedor as I do think he would overwhelm GSP and probably scare Silva even...gawd that'd be a dream fight...but lb for lb my completely unscientific method forces me to discount the man's size to equalize the playing field a bit. Maybe I'm wrong. Silva looks so precise and I don't think Fedor's faced anything close to a fighter at that level.

In terms of being able to fight any opponent - I think that is also GSP's strength. He's out wrestled good wrestlers, out brawled strikers and out BJJ'd grapplers. Seems he doesn't get the respect he deserves, wonder if it's a language thing? The man's an expert at nothing but very good at everything - the new prototypical MMA fighter. I think his only flaw is he's human, perhaps more emotional than other fighters and has to work at his mental game. I tend to believe in recent years he has fought a lot more high caliber opponents (not necessarily more popular or bigger names though) than the other 2 (victims of the lack of depth in their weight classes). Some of those guys are big names, but haven't been big deals for a few years. Let's face it, BJ Penn at it his cheeseburger eating worse is probably as good as any #2 at any weight class. And I didn't think that match should have gone to the split, GSP was born that day.
With the heavyweights, the 1 punch-ko striking game plays a bigger role and it daws draw bigger crowds - skill for skill I think the smaller guys bring more.

Man, if you ask me again next week I'll probably switch from Silva to GSP or Fedor...lb for lb questions are always tough, but fun.

Overall my own sentiments mirror 3LB's. There's an amazing number of skilled athletes and while the difference between "good" and "great" may not be that much t acounts for something. I think the sport has alot to offer and a bright future.

It is part of the new pop culture in a big way - the goofy skeletal-print black and white T-shirts, and the surge in local MMA startup competitions all over North America are evidence of that. What is it with 18-30 year olds and need to look "tuff"? Anyway, MMA isn't knew - it's been kinda popular since 1993, and if not for all the legal problems of the "old UFC" in the mid/late 90's, we would have been where we are a lot sooner. Dana White, for all his egomaniacal flaws, has done a good job selling the technical side of MMA instead of the brute gore side of it.
Why aren't these guys at the Olympics?

[3-LockBox]

I'm not dissin' it at all,

I didn't think you were - I wasn't really referring to anyone participating in this thread. My wife for one, hates it, but then again, she hates boxing.

Yeah, I hope the MMAs can avoid the political pitfalls that boxing fell into, and I also hope it avoids not only manufactured talent, but also manufactured outcomes. Pro wrestling has long been known for its predetermined outcomes, but still makes big bucks; sure its on the wane, but its survived for 50 years as is.

[bobsticks]

So much for Chuck Liddell. Mebbe he and Don Frye can team-up for the first ever tag-team MMA fight against Ken Shamrock and William Shatner.

[kexodusc]

So much for Chuck Liddell. Mebbe he and Don Frye can team-up for the first ever tag-team MMA fight against Ken Shamrock and William Shatner.

I dunno...Liddell looked as good as ever...mebbe it's time the world recognized the pure underrated brilliance of Rashad Evans? Adjust your positioning and game plan so as to render your opponents offense ineffective, then rely on your very dangerous, seemingly unstoppable weapons to put your opponent away...there's reason nobody's beating him...

[Rich-n-Texas]

I dunno...Liddell looked as good as ever...mebbe it's time the world recognized the pure underrated brilliance of Rashad Evans? Adjust your positioning and game plan so as to render your opponents offense ineffective, then rely on your very dangerous, seemingly unstoppable weapons to put your opponent away...there's reason nobody's beating him...

What world are you talking about? Jupiter? It's football season now fellas.

[bobsticks]

I dunno...Liddell looked as good as ever...mebbe it's time the world recognized the pure underrated brilliance of Rashad Evans? Adjust your positioning and game plan so as to render your opponents offense ineffective, then rely on your very dangerous, seemingly unstoppable weapons to put your opponent away...there's reason nobody's beating him...

Hold the phone there Big K. I am under no circumstances downplaying Evans' skills. Mad they are, to be sure...and I'll agree that he is/was drastically underappreciated...but fighting Liddell these days ain't the same as even a year ago. Just watch how often he drops his left or leans into something. Mebbe he's focusing on other areas but fundamentals have not been his strong suit of late.

[kexodusc]

Hold the phone there Big K. I am under no circumstances downplaying Evans' skills. Mad they are, to be sure...and I'll agree that he is/was drastically underappreciated...but fighting Liddell these days ain't the same as even a year ago. Just watch how often he drops his left or leans into something. Mebbe he's focusing on other areas but fundamentals have not been his strong suit of late.

Well you could be on to something.

Personally, I found Lidell to be a bit on the overrated side, not that he's not deserving of being one of the very elite all time greats, but he's always had some serious vulnerabilities. He's great against those Jiu-Jitsu types, and loves to mix it up with the wrestlers and ground n' pounders, but he's struggled against strikers his whole career, if you can call still being one of the best struggling. But his last few losses are to Rampage x 2, Evans, and kickboxin' Jardine...And he had a helluva fight with Silva who can land a few too...see a pattern? They gots the skilz on their feet to make the Iceman look human.
So maybe Chuck's not losing a step, just fighting tougher match-ups vs more well rounded opponents than eariy in his career.
And I think that's the case. There's fewer 1 dimensional fighters these days, now they're all sorta multi-functional fighers.

I've always found Lidell to be a bit of a gambler. Willing to take a few shots to land his own haymakers. Sometimes he gets caught, is all. He didn't look too bad last night, not nearly as bad as in the Rampage fights.



He's probably had a helluva time with the injury setback too, and jumping into Rashad Evans might not have been the best rehab strategy...

[bobsticks]

Anybody interested in the Lesnar/Couture bout? I'm all about if only to see lesnar elevated and Couture get a warm-up in before the big dance. Evidently Lesnar, who admittedly has the most to gain, is a bit giddy himself... http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns

I'm ready to concede that a Lesnar victory could potentially hurt the sport in the short term, as it would deflate the possibilty of a Fedor/Couture fight but nonetheless I'm down. I view Lesnar as a more polished Kimbo, but maybe I'm the only one to see the upside of both.

What's up with Tito's head?

[bobsticks]

... view Lesnar as a more polished Kimbo, but maybe I'm the only one to see the upside of both.

What's up with Tito's head?

Who was the punch-drunk assclown that saw an upside...er...um...scratch that.

Kimbo Slice vs Seth Petruzelli
Uploaded by _Luk

[kexodusc]

Anybody interested in the Lesnar/Couture bout? I'm all about if only to see lesnar elevated and Couture get a warm-up in before the big dance. Evidently Lesnar, who admittedly has the most to gain, is a bit giddy himself... http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns

I'm ready to concede that a Lesnar victory could potentially hurt the sport in the short term, as it would deflate the possibilty of a Fedor/Couture fight but nonetheless I'm down. I view Lesnar as a more polished Kimbo, but maybe I'm the only one to see the upside of both.

What's up with Tito's head?

Kimbo's a bad dude, but I always felt execution could overcome his nastiness. Gawd, it didn't even seem like he got rocked that hard. Poof. Funny how Petruzelli went on record saying Elite XC offered him more cash to not take Kimbo to the ground and expose his limits...instead he slugged it out and beat Kimbo at his own game in about 8 seconds.

As for Lesnar. I'm a bit worried he's being fed to Couture too early. But in fairness, Lesnar dominated both his UFC opponents and got caught once. Herring and Mir aren't exactly "average" fighters either so Lesnar isn't being fed soft opponents by any means.
He's got the background to out-wrestle Couture. He can probably outslug him. And his superhuman strength should be able to compensate for a lot of mistakes he might make otherwise. I don't know what Couture's game plan would be? Stand up? Shoot the big man's legs and hope he doesn't slam you? I'm sure Couture will figure something out and expose a flaw in Lesnar's game.

It's a no lose situation for Lesnar, a quick KO or loss to Couture just means he's not ready...yet. But a good showing, or even the unthinkable win propels his MMA career.

[bobsticks]

Well, here's a whole new wrinkle: on the way to a potential Couture/Emilianenko fight we're now looking atthe possibility of a Fedor/ Arlovski bout.

Both camps have denied any formal signings but there's already much ado and some hints in the advertising schemes. Frankly, I think this would put Randy and Fedor on equal ground during the interim as both would have to face truly qualified opponents who inarguably would present a significant challenge.

Despite a couple of subpar outings and an exposed chin, Arlovski has looked back in championship form. I've long suspected his style and talents could present formidable opposition, perhaps even greater than an aging Couture.

[kexodusc]

I think Arlovski's biggest weakness is himself. The dude has scary good offense and is competent on the ground being a sambo wiz. He seems to get in the most trouble when he's trying to finish guys off though.
This guy makes good fighters look vulnerable. The 1st loss to Sylvia he almost put him away and got stunned, and we'll always be left wondering how much better he would have looked if he didn't get seriously injured during the 1st round of their swing match. Despite 2 losses most people I know think Arlovski actually established himself as the better fighter. I dunno about that, but he proved he's a contender.

I don't know if he's going to beat Fedor. But I think for the first time in a long time Fedor's going to see an opponent that he can't dominate on the ground and put away with an armbar.

To be honest, that matchup has more intigue for me than Fedor/Randy does.

Is Fedor fighting Arlovski just to complete a contractual agreement so he can go fight Couture? I'd worry about keeping his focus.

[bobsticks]

What world are you talking about? Jupiter? It's football season now fellas.

Hey yo, Rich, this here's what we be talkembout...

http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/ufcppv/91?vid=10583411

You can order the PPV or just get yoself up here for the Fight Night Party at Chez Sticks. Steroids will be provided at the door.

[bobsticks]

Hey Kex,

Look what I found! Remember when CroCop was the Man?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA0aJ...wanderlei.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcy0w...eature=related

[kexodusc]

Hey Kex,

Look what I found! Remember when CroCop was the Man?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA0aJ...wanderlei.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcy0w...eature=related

Holy ****...never saw that fight...I kinda fingered it was a lucky shot or something, but he pretty much dominated him the whole way through.

He looked so accurate, precise, lethal with his strikes, yet elusive enough to trade with the big boys...WTF has happened to CroCop since then??? People blocking the high kick and staying in close to avoid his power punches? It's almost sad how far he's fallen.

[kexodusc]

Mwa ha ha ha ha.

Wasn't shocked to see Evans have a bad fight and still be better than the always entertaining Griffin, but to see Rampage destroy Silva like that...wow. Worth every penny. And I kinda thought Mir would pull this off but Nog looked old and slow in there...

Lesnar vs Mir 2 is gonna be f'n huge. I love the beastly potential Lesnar has but I'm not sure he's ready for the Mir we saw last night. But he did kind of dominate him in the first fight until he got caught...can't wait for that one.

[bobsticks]

...WTF has happened to CroCop since then??? People blocking the high kick and staying in close to avoid his power punches? It's almost sad how far he's fallen.

It's my understanding that Mirko suffered a lower back injury that he's been trying to rehab for over a year. Having completed his contractual agreements, word is that he'll be having surgery in January.

That's nothing official but it makes some sense as recently his range of motion has appeared limited (a concept to which I'm sure you can attest). We'll see and even at 100% he still gets pwned by Fedor...

[bobsticks]

Lesnar vs Mir 2 is gonna be f'n huge. I love the beastly potential Lesnar has but I'm not sure he's ready for the Mir we saw last night. But he did kind of dominate him in the first fight until he got caught...can't wait for that one.

Yes, Brock has improved exponentially. That said, he's still light years away from being in the same skill level as Mir.

To stand any kind of a chance he's gotta go with the girl that brought him to the dance. He's a big, corn-fed Nebraska farmboy with an abundance of physical gifts. I think he needs to train at 280 in altitude and drop to 260. He's got to come out better conditioned and try to keep it standing...

...meanwhile Mir is going to be looking for the submission from the ground, and, against Lesnar's admittedly limited BJJ skillset he could make it very clinical something like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8dJJ...eature=related

[bobsticks]

.....