I need very sensitive speakers that wont break the bank

[Kaboom]

I'm in need of speakers, and these are going to be powered, for the time being, with a Sonic Impact T-amp, and in the future, most likely by a low powered SET.
Now, what can i get with a sensitivity hopefully ABOVE 92 that wont cost me a grand per Db? (hopefully under 6-700 for the pair)
Also, if when i dump the T-amp i choose to go for something like 700 watt monoblocks, how will the ultra sensitive speakers hold up?
cheers!

[Lege]

I'm in need of speakers, and these are going to be powered, for the time being, with a Sonic Impact T-amp, and in the future, most likely by a low powered SET.
Now, what can i get with a sensitivity hopefully ABOVE 92 that wont cost me a grand per Db? (hopefully under 6-700 for the pair)
Also, if when i dump the T-amp i choose to go for something like 700 watt monoblocks, how will the ultra sensitive speakers hold up?
cheers!

I'll through in one of my fav.'s, The Triangle Titus 202
There is a new ES version out, and I actually prefer the 202 because its a few hundred less
Hard to find new, try audiogon.com. They are on there sometimes for around $375-425 and IMO are very hard to beat for the price.

[RGA]

How low powered -- the Audio Note AX Two can be easily driven with the meishu an 8 watt SET -- it runs $600.00US. They are 90db sensitive but they present an easy impedence (whiich is more important than the sensitivity alone). Now this is all with an eye on the room the AX Two is not meant for big rooms and in a medium room may want more power in the 8-10 watt range. If you're running 3watts or less in a big room you'll probably want to look to lowther or a number of used speakers. Though it has been said my OTO is rewally only 6 watts per channel -- it has no trouble with the AX Two nor does it have trouble with low impedence -- it just doesn't like big impedence swings AND low sensitivity.

Good luck - very low powered SET does make speaker hunting a little hard -- but generally hard to drive speakers I don't like too much -- I can;t think of a single one I would choose to own.

[Geoffcin]

I'm in need of speakers, and these are going to be powered, for the time being, with a Sonic Impact T-amp, and in the future, most likely by a low powered SET.
Now, what can i get with a sensitivity hopefully ABOVE 92 that wont cost me a grand per Db? (hopefully under 6-700 for the pair)
Also, if when i dump the T-amp i choose to go for something like 700 watt monoblocks, how will the ultra sensitive speakers hold up?
cheers!

Single speaker solutions for high sensitivity applications are made for DIY. There's plenty of people who make these, and it's less work, as there is no crossover to fuss with.

Here's a forum you might want to visit to get some good info;

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/bbs.html

[Kaboom]

Well i'm not looking to drive them with 1 watt per channel, but lets just say i'm probably gonna go with sth like 10 watts per channel. sth like this for example http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc....60401&auc&3&4&
the room isnt big at all either.
how's the S.E.X. power amp? it seems pretty popular, but 2 watts per channel at 10%THD sounds pretty pityful to me...
cheers!

[markw]

Spec'd @ 93 db.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/pr...ers%20-%20Pair

[Arturo7]

Single speaker solutions for high sensitivity applications are made for DIY.

I'll second the DIY option.

http://melhuish.org/audio/index.html

[theaudiohobby]

I'm in need of speakers, and these are going to be powered, for the time being, with a Sonic Impact T-amp, and in the future, most likely by a low powered SET.
Now, what can i get with a sensitivity hopefully ABOVE 92 that wont cost me a grand per Db? (hopefully under 6-700 for the pair)
Also, if when i dump the T-amp i choose to go for something like 700 watt monoblocks, how will the ultra sensitive speakers hold up?
cheers!

Beware, many supposedly High efficiency speakers, especially from the smaller manufacturers of SET and such like persuasion play fast and loose with their sensitivity figures for commercial reasons, IOW they are grossly inflated. On the other hand, many of the larger manufacturers conservatively spec their speakers. when I had the supposed HE AN K/LX, the ELAC 310iJET @ 86dB was louder. , the AN-E is speced at 94dB, but the last time that Paul Messenger measured it, it pettered out at 92dB , The De Capo Reference also fell short of its sensitivity rating of 92dB by a large margin pettering out at ~87dB . Now compare those to the B&W 803D, which B&W spec at 90dB, 35Hz +/-3dB, but measured in-room farfield by the same Paul Messenger at 20Hz -1dB! or Canton that rated a speaker at 88dB sensitvity and it JA measured it at almost 92dB! or the KEF Q1 rated 91dB, and measures out at 91dB or better. Get something of moderate sensitivity such as 90dB+ such as the Kef Q1, but if you must have High sensitivity, then look at horn speakers, since these are genuinely high sensitivity by design. An overly sensitive speaker with ultra high power amplifiers is more of an annoyance, if the volume gain step of your preamplifier are coarse, e.g Step 2, too quiet, but step 3 is too loud, if you get my drift. You may also blow your tweeters, if you are careless with the volume control, if you supply more power than the speaker can handle, the tweeter will burn out.

[kexodusc]

theaudiohobby is absolutely right - he's not the first person I've heard to find some of those speakers underrated or over-rated for sensitivity. One also has to keep in mind that not every manufacturer uses the same method of arriving at the sensitivity/efficiency figures. I've seen different methods used by the same driver manufacturer. Even most extremely high-end speakers with far more discriminating tolerance and matching criteria still have acceptable variances in the 0.5-2% and higher range as well. This is quite good, but when we're talking 90 dB it's easy to arrive at a few dB difference one way or the other.

I like the DIY suggestion - I've seen several very nice Jordan, Fostex, and even inexpensive Tang-band designs with full-range drivers that sound great - IMO, they require a bit more toe-in which look a bit odd, but that's no big deal - a lot less lobbing, beaming, and midrange transition issues since there is no crossover (though a few do use impendance compensation and frequency shaping networks). Best part is, you have a lot of flexibility with these later on should you decide to add a horn or ribbon tweeter or something down the road - just re-tune the cabinet and make a crossover later.

RGA touched on a good point - impedance swings are often more troublesome to amplifiers than sensitivity, but most speakers at $600 rated at 8 ohms nominal shouldn't have much problem with a decent amp - some entry level receivers might have problems, maybe. If you're looking at 6 or 4 ohm speakers you might want to pay a bit more attention.

Higher efficiency is nice, especially for low powered SET amps, but I wouldn't recommend that you limit your search based on that alone unless you really like loud music. If you never listen to music above 90 dB or so you can get away with lower-sensitivity, which might open the door to more speaker choices. I have a pair of speakers with only 84 dB or so sensitivity that I can easily get above 90 dB on a 20 watt amp. In the small room they're in, I rarely exceed 80 dB on peaks, and it's still pretty loud. Also, efficiency and sound quality aren't related as some people are implying.

[46minaudio]

Give these a look.
http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/KITHE10-1.htm

[ericl]

KLIPSCH KLIPSCH KLIPSCH KLIPSCH KLIPSCH KLIPSCH KLIPSCH KLIPSCH KLIPSCH KLIPSCH KLIPSCH KLIPSCH KLIPSCH KLIPSCH KLIPSCH KLIPSCH


used or not, there's tons of options

[RGA]

Just a correction to TAH who has already been corrected on another fourm but oh well.

Anyway -- All Audio Note sensitivity ratings are done from corners -- which is where they are designed to be placed and THIS IS what is stated on their website. Placing a speaker in the corner and near wall of a room - most any has a gain of 3db. Hi-fi Choice's measuring room has no viable corner so all of their reviews of Audio Note speakers are not ideal -- in spite of that they do very well in all measured response and blind listening sessions -- unfortunately when not in corners they are going to sound less than ideal and a lttle more coloured in the midrange because they don't have the support of the wall behind -- I have their speakers and know this first hand. Audio Note factors in reflected waves of the side walls and possibly has a reverb when way out from walls -- i still think they sound fantastic away from walls but I think I get what paul messenger was notoing in his review of the AN E. Though it should be noted that the E was given a best Buy award from the magazine, and made their list of favorite componants and more importantly they bought the speakers AGAIN (they bough them as a reference tool for wehnt hey compare and or measure componants back in 1992 (Stereophile also owns a pair for such tests).

The Audio Note J/Spe has been measured by Hi-fiChoice as 89.5db away from corners - Audio Note claims on their site "Around 93db when properly placed in corners" 89.5 + 3db = 92.5. 92.5 is around 93db so Audio Note rounded up which is the rule in mathematics. Some horrible bright and cold speakers tend to sound louder because they are often ahead of their woofers -- this in your face presentation can trick listeners into thinking what they're hearing is better sensitivity -- some lower efficency speaker do this to compensate and some high efficency ones like certain Klipsch speakers have their treble band jump forward for impressive impact but not necessarily long listenability. IMO.

Another review out of the Phillipines measured the J/Spe at 95db. The J speakers do not dip below 5ohms though the E goes to 3.6 which is still quite easy because it dips here in the main band.

As for ease of drive -- My Wharfedales ar 95db sensitive 8 ohms -- and not friendly to weak power -- there is a difference between power and watts I suspect because I had a top of the line Pioneer Eleite at 125 watts RMS (across the ENTIRE band) that sucked donkey balls at driving them crisply. The THD specs were ridiculous at .000025% THD. I brought home a Brysto 3b at 120 watts (5 watts less than the pioneer) which made my Pioneer sound like a sick little weakling girlie man amp.

Clearly there is significantly moreto it than mere watts -- my Wharfedales do not present a tough load with paper woven composite 10 inch cast woofers and horn tweeters.

What you merely need to do is try the amp with the speakers - Audio note's speakers are designed for their amplifiers and what you will find is that there is more to the game than sensitivity and even impedence in that what you may want to know is where is the impedence dip and dive and where is it more sesitive and not -- how will it react? I heard an 11 watt Set drive B&W N801s and it drove it better than I have ever heard the N801 driven -- I could not play loud but I could play well...Unfortunately due to the sheer cost of the amplifier -- the combo was not worth it in the end because i like to play reasonably loud from time to time,

My amp is rated at between 6-10 watts SE -- the 10 watt figure have been tld is about the maximum for the EL84 tubes run in SEP as they are.

As for THD 10% does sound high byut so what - listen to it -- UHF favourably reviewed an ampifier that measured 80% THD and trashed an amp with phenomenally low THD -- My pioneer was unlistenable garbage and had great numbers -- probably better than any amp I've owned. So far the best amps I've heard have all been SE variaty -- their numbers don;t look as perty but then they sell the music not the spec sheet -- if you want the spec sheet shop at Sears because the worst cd player from Yorx will have a THD that is below any audible limnit -- and if Jitter were a big deal it WOULD AFFECT THD but jitter is so inaudible that even bad players are mere BLIPS on the radar as it were. So clearly whatever is being measured is not what is important tothe listening sessions.

Frankly, the odds are you won't be able to hear an Auio Note product in your area so none of this is going to matter -- The AX Two is in your price range and can easily be driven with low powered amplifiers -- or high powered ones -- and sounds great -- they may not to you of course but they meet the criteria you laid down. So will others Klipsh, pretty much anything using a horn.

[kexodusc]

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[Geoffcin]

The preceding advertisement was paid for by the owners. The views expressed are not necessarily shared by Audioreview.com or its members.

That's pretty lofty!

[matt39]

Check out the Boston Acoustics VR series. I had a short audition with these today and they are pretty nice speakers. The VRB bookshelf (500) and the VR1 floorstander (600) are in your budget and they are also very efficient at 92/93db. They look pretty good too especially in the dark cherry finish. I don't know if they're exactly what you're looking for but they're certainly worth checking out. You might consider the VR2 as well if you can stretch your budget to 850. I really liked them. Nice open sound with the addition of a midrange driver for 3-way sound. Good luck with whatever you choose.

[GMichael]

Have you looked at the Infinity Primus 360's? They are rated at 93dB. If you buy them at Crutchfield they will throw in a pair of 150 bookshelfs with them.

[kexodusc]

That's pretty lofty!

Thanks...I think...this just means I had waaaayyy too much time on my hands...having a few months in between career moves didn't hurt either...

[Geoffcin]

Have you looked at the Infinity Primus 360's? They are rated at 93dB. If you buy them at Crutchfield they will throw in a pair of 150 bookshelfs with them.

I didn't realize they were so sensitive though.

[RGA]

Here is another high sensitivity speaker that is going for $549.00 -- I have never heard it myself but it is supposedly built for low powered SET amps and looks intriguing. You can try it out and if you don;t like it can send it back...also it comes with a ten year warranty. It is a single driver design crossoverless.

The bass won't be real deep but it is another one that might be worht a shot. They're weird looking but may very well be good. The reports I've read on them have been good. http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/super%203.htm

[theaudiohobby]

The Omega 3R is a good illustration, because 58Hz-20Hz for a single driver speaker is a very ambitious, it is more correctly 58hz - 20Hz, +/-10 dB, and achieve 93 dB sensitivity in a very restricted range. Whilst writing this I found the FR curves for the driver

and it is indeed -12db at 100Hz axis(excluding port contribution), look at the performance >15Kz, @20Kkz on axis, it is -10dB or more, and off axis, it is almost -20dB, it is only hits 93dB and only on axis between 3KHz and 8KHz with a small recovery at 15KHz, at 30deg, off axis, it never hits 93dB at any time , off axis the response starts to fall off from as low at 2KHz, and it never recovers, except if listened to on-axis, this will be a bass light and very mellow sounding speaker. FTR, I am interested in buying this speaker ,because a fellow whose opinions I respect owns one and likes them, however the published specs are still very ambitious.

[RGA]

Tah you say this is the graph of the driver -- what about the speaker? they are not the same -- clueless.

[theaudiohobby]

RGA,

It is a single driver speaker with no crossover,therefore apart from the port contribution, the speaker behaviour will mirror that of its sole driver.

PS: Exercise some self-control.

[RGA]

Sorry but if you read their site they miodified the driver -- cabinets play a role -- Ports/cabinets can add a full octave -- they do in audio note speakers and they do in a number of others. I can easily see a gain at their rated 58hz -- BTW there is a measurement on this little speaker and it measures 13db down at 32hz which is not that bad at all considering it's $549.00. And incidentally one helluva lot better than the Elac 310 which must be assumed to be 42hz -10db as they are too chicken to list ANY real numbers.

This from the Elac 310 owner a speaker that is 4ohms 86db and can only handle 70 watts. Pretty abysmal numbers for the price. And you are slamming a speaker's driver without ever hearing the speaker or seeing the measurment of the complete modified product. I am not saying it's good -- I've never heard it, but this is frankly pathetic --- typical of you to review speakers you've never heard you seem to do this an awful lot.

"So that's what you wouldn't hear if the Super 3 only covered 58Hz to 20KHz with nothing below. However, in my room the Super 3's response was reasonably flat to 63Hz where it rolled off until it was about 13dB down at 31.5Hz, with nothing below that. Note that the Super 3 still does go down to 31.5Hz. You should be able to hear the lowest note of every instrument except for the pipe organ and piano, albeit at significantly reduced volume. You can still make out the 4th key of the piano at 32.7Hz, for example. The realization that it was possible to hear nearly everything of musical significance through a small single driver loudspeaker surprised me somewhat. I just didn't expect that there would be that much coverage of the musical instrument & human voice spectra."

And gee at a fraction of the price of the Elac 310 which also can't do any of this costs at least 4 times the price and need a massive amp to get it to not play bass and to not play loud -- gee the numbers alone have this speaker WAY WAY WAY ahead of the 310!!

"Because there is no crossover, they are generally more sensitive which makes them easier to drive. The Fostex driver in the Super 3 has a light cone and a strong motor to give it an 8-ohm sensitivity of 93dB. That makes it a natural for partnering with low power SET amplifiers but not too low: The 2-watt Yamamoto Stereo 45 didn't really have enough steam to make the Super 3s sing in my room, for example. During the review process, I found that my 3.5-watt Fi 2A3 amplifiers really were the lower limit of power I would recommend while the Fis were a very nice match indeed. The 5 watts of the Almarro or Sonic Impact T-Amp were enough to blow down the walls."

Seems like the real world Sensitivity is pretty good when he can rattle walls with 5 watts.

You just continue to support your bright innacurate treble speakers with lousy bass response.

Hi-fi Choice on Elac Ribbons.
"The high frequencies were bright (though a little splashy at times, which surprised us, because these speakers use a hi-tech folded ribbon tweeter with a fantastic reputation in hi-fi circles)."

Hmm -- I'm not surprised.

"Sound Quality

The CL 310i JET is a largely aesthetically driven product. Its concept began with a visual image - that of an extremely small and neat loudspeaker - and its designers have worked within that constraint to create the best sounding product they can. When judging a design like this, reviewers have to apply a degree of contextual insight: who is the product aimed at, and how successful is it on its own terms?

(Oh yes this is a real winner indeed -- all looks and sounds ok for it's looks) Hi-End it is certainly NOT!!

"It exudes designer chic"

"Bass depth is limited, although it tries gamely to compensate with some quite serious mid-bass thump..."

Yes no doubt why they don't list the +/- rating.

"Midrange is also a little pinched, lacking the insight to convey the full breadth of texture, and missing the width and grace to really wrap you in a favourite piece of music. It's quite direct, yet heard across a range of music the speaker is strangely uninvolving."

Yes looks like a real winner to me -- and this was AFTER taking into account that it will be purchased as a STYLE system -- reminds me of Bang and Olluffson reviews.

[RGA]

Elac 330 the supposed better model and this is at a paltry 65db a very SAFE volume level to achieve best results -- what a horrible 5db spike in the treble realm -- coupled with it's midbass lump not show in this graph and we should trust you over the 6 moons reviewers. Heck i don't trust them either but I know I don't trust you.

[theaudiohobby]

The link to RGA FR curves

Ho..hum ...I wonder what your two posts have to do with sensitivity...,now you post totally irrelevant FR curves, read the text closely

Further; I do the measurements on a typical listening level, about 75-76dB, based on a certain test track...I did not have the time nor the energy to optimize every speaker as making the notes by hand and further, the typing of these values into Excel is a time consuming prcess.

That says it all , now try to stay on topic, locating a truly sensitive speaker.

RGA, if you want to discuss ELAC 310iJET, start a new thread.