Best Amplifier Choices under $3000 for AV123 LS6 speakers.

[Mr Peabody]

It could be that the X-ray does have some break in. It seems Frenchmon experienced it. I was just commenting on the Siltech. I didn't used to think hardware needed break in but the ERC-1 seemed to need a bit of time. Emo says they don't but that wasn't my experience. I didn't notice a break in period with prior players. So maybe the X-ray will improve. There should be a noticeable improvement with the Siltech though.

I'm beginning to wonder also if the Yamaha is not letting all the quality get through. I was also wondering where you bought the Siltech because their website warned of counterfit cables being sold. I would think yours shouldn't be suspect if bought from a dealer but you might want to check with Siltech if you bought them off Ebay or something.

The Emotiva preamp is on sale for $349.00. I hate for you to keep throwing money around without a result but if no one else has another preamp for you to experiment with the USP-1 could be an inexpensive way to bypass the Yamaha to see what happens and if you still don't hear anything you can always return the USP-1. It would also be a good way to see how the pre & power sounds together.

[Mr Peabody]

It could be that the X-ray does have some break in. It seems Frenchmon experienced it. I was just commenting on the Siltech. I didn't used to think hardware needed break in but the ERC-1 seemed to need a bit of time. Emo says they don't but that wasn't my experience. I didn't notice a break in period with prior players. So maybe the X-ray will improve. There should be a noticeable improvement with the Siltech though.

I'm beginning to wonder also if the Yamaha is not letting all the quality get through. I was also wondering where you bought the Siltech because their website warned of counterfit cables being sold. I would think yours shouldn't be suspect if bought from a dealer but you might want to check with Siltech if you bought them off Ebay or something.

The Emotiva preamp is on sale for $349.00. I hate for you to keep throwing money around without a result but if no one else has another preamp for you to experiment with the USP-1 could be an inexpensive way to bypass the Yamaha to see what happens and if you still don't hear anything you can always return the USP-1. It would also be a good way to see how the pre & power sounds together.

[devuonoste]

Hi frenchmon & Mr. P. I just want to let you know that I bought the siltechs from Spearit Sound that Mr. P suggested so I hope they are authentic. Frenchmon, how long did you run your xray for before you began to notice an improvement? I have run mine for about 30 hours or so. I was also thinking that the Yammy might be preventing any improvements in sound quality from getting through and I think it may be my bottleneck. I can't think of any other reason, because I should at least notice something between the Toshiba vs xray and siltechs. Also, I'm having a hard time comparing because sometimes I think Oh Yea! there's a significant difference and then I switch and I find there is no difference. The music sounds virtually identical. The only thing that would help me determine for sure, is if I could A/B by simply having 2 of the same CDs and just pressing between DVD and CD-R on the yammy, that way the comparison would be extremely quick and it would be easier to compare the sound. I have tried difference CD's and different types of music and still get the same result. I looked on the Emo website and I almost decided to buy, but my wife would kill me if I bought anything else this year. I may just wait and get a better pre-amp like your CJ early next year. Is there any way that the CD could not be performing well or is there any way to check to make sure the interconnects are OK. The CD seems to work fine. The only weird thing is Audioadvisor/MF sent 2 remotes that are identical. The work OK but sometimes they don't seem very responsive but overall they work OK.

[frenchmon]

Hi frenchmon & Mr. P. I just want to let you know that I bought the siltechs from Spearit Sound that Mr. P suggested so I hope they are authentic. Frenchmon, how long did you run your xray for before you began to notice an improvement? I have run mine for about 30 hours or so. I was also thinking that the Yammy might be preventing any improvements in sound quality from getting through and I think it may be my bottleneck. I can't think of any other reason, because I should at least notice something between the Toshiba vs xray and siltechs. Also, I'm having a hard time comparing because sometimes I think Oh Yea! there's a significant difference and then I switch and I find there is no difference. The music sounds virtually identical. The only thing that would help me determine for sure, is if I could A/B by simply having 2 of the same CDs and just pressing between DVD and CD-R on the yammy, that way the comparison would be extremely quick and it would be easier to compare the sound. I have tried difference CD's and different types of music and still get the same result. I looked on the Emo website and I almost decided to buy, but my wife would kill me if I bought anything else this year. I may just wait and get a better pre-amp like your CJ early next year. Is there any way that the CD could not be performing well or is there any way to check to make sure the interconnects are OK. The CD seems to work fine. The only weird thing is Audioadvisor/MF sent 2 remotes that are identical. The work OK but sometimes they don't seem very responsive but overall they work OK.

After about 30 hours the Xray started to breakin for me. I had two cds that where the same and I demoed both of them together with the Rotel and Xray and they sounded the same. And then the Xray started sounding better than the Rotel. Smoother, more air around the instruments and the sound stage got better. And when I added the A+ cables there was even a better improvement. The highs where more revealing. The monopriced cables had my speakers sounding bright, and bloated in the bottom. The A+ has a more even or balanced presentation without the brightness but more clear and crisp highs with a touch of warmth. So I believe you should start experiencing some of the same. If not, it has to be the yammie. I have a friend who has a very good Yammie, the RX-V3800 and its a very good Home theater receiver, but I doubt if its a very good pre/pro for audiophile two channel sound. My SACD was used in my home-theater before I got my two channel system. When I wanted to listen to it in two channel all I had to do was put it in direct mode and it was two channel. I thought the SACD sounded good, but not nearly as good in my two channel system. So that may be your problem. The Xray is a very good and outstanding player. The Yammie may be choking the Xray. Musical Fidelity put two remotes in with every Xray. THe romote takes a little getting use to. You have to point it directly at the Xray in order for it to perform. You will get use to it. The best way for me to evaluate a player is to listen to a acoustic Jazz CD with a sax or trumpet, a piano, upright bass, and drums. That way I can tell right off the bat what quality of sound I get. Less instruments. If the music sounds congested with out air, something is not right.

[Mr Peabody]

The Siltech are A-OK then. Can you copy a CD on your computer or have some one do a couple? then you can compare the two quicker and even switch the discs from player to player to make sure what you hear isn't differences in the CD and copy. Or maybe your friend has some of the same CD's. If you have headphones you can try listening through them for comparison, it may help you hear some nuances.

[frenchmon]

One other thing...you might want to let the CDP and the new cables run all night to break them in.

[devuonoste]

Thanks for your input Mr. P. and frenchmon. I think by now the xray should be at least starting to break in, as I have been letting it run all night 2 or 3 times since I've had it and I run it all the time when I'm home. I think I will try to do some comparisons when I get dual copies of one or more CD's. I agree with using acoustic jazz cd and I also want to have music that incorporates singing, as I like to see how the system deals with vocals. The CD's I have been using are Chris Botti, 'Italia', (mostly Trumpet, guitar, drums and every second song with vocals from Adrea Bocelli, Dean Martin, etc); Burmester Vorfuhrungs CD3, Eric Clapton 'Unplugged', and Dire Straits 'Sultans of Swing', etc. With the last two I only play the songs which are slower paced and have portions of the song where guitar, bass and drums are emphasized. Before I got the xray I used to listen to a lot of Jazz music from my tv channels and they would go through my system through the Toshiba, HD box and the yammy/Emo; however, I can't make any comparisons through the xray. I need to get some Jazz CD's in the near future. I have been making a list of some CD's that I may purchase in the future. Thanks again for your input. I hope to have my issue resolved ASAP but I may need to wait for a good pre-amp.

[Mr Peabody]

Don't limit your listening to just slow or acoustic, sometimes the more complex will help flush out a difference. Listen for subtle background noises, I like to pay attention to the bass line, snare drum, cymbals, piano, to name a few.

Sometimes it is difficult, when I was comparing my Audio Note DAC to then a potential purchase of my T+A at first it was subtle but as I listened more the differences became to make themselves known.

As apparent as the difference was between the ERC and X-ray I'd think it would even be more so against a Tosh DVD player. Even using the Yamaha DAC. Go ahead and play the title track of Sultans and give it some power.

Does the sub play when in Direct mode? Which input is the X-ray plugged into?

[devuonoste]

I agree that the xray vs Toshiba should exhibit more of a difference than the Emo vs Xray and I hope that I will be able to figure out what's limiting the system's performance. With that being said, the system does sound really nice; however, I thought the xray would bring it to an even higher level. I hope it is just the yammy or some setup mistake I have made. I don't think I have made any errors though but you never know, I will keep searching.

I have tried different music and I have tried the title track of Sultans. I usually try to listen at different levels to see if there's a difference and I have compared at -30, -25, -20 and -15db on the yammy. -15db is getting pretty loud. I usually don't go beyond -5db, as it is extremely loud at that level, but I didn't go that loud during the comparisons.

I am not using a sub, as the LS6's go down to at least 25HZ in most rooms and my room sometimes gets overloaded even though I have the bass setting on medium. I actually may change the bass setting to medium/small to avoid this but I haven't got around to doing that. I know there are many things which I need to improve on, especially getting room treatments, etc. but the conditions should affect each player the same and even if it wasn't at least I could explain why one sounds different than the other, but they both sound virtually identical. I think I may wait to confirm this when I get dual CD's so I can A/B quickly.

The X-ray is plugged into the CD-R input in the yammy and into a power bar that has most of my components plugged into. It is a power bar I purchased from the audio/video store that I purchased the yammy from. I don't have any power conditioners,etc and I'm not sure if this would make a difference. Also, I tried to plug the xray into the CD input that is located next to the CD-R input in the audio component jack area of the amp, which I think is analog and still no difference. I even hooked it up via the coax to the digital portion of the amp and no difference. I put it back to the CD-R, as I know you said it would be best to hook it up via analog inputs. Hope I can figure this out in the near future. Thanks again for trying to help me.

[frenchmon]

devuonoste...how is your system now? Are you starting to hear a real difference? And what do you think of the Siltech cables?

frenchmon

[devuonoste]

frenchmon, I have been away for a couple days and haven't been able to listen to my system. I also need to purchase a CD or two to match one(s) in my collection so I can A/ B to better compare between the xray and the toshiba and then I can compare between some interconnects. I will post as soon as possible

[devuonoste]

frenchmon, I just have a question on how you isolated and elevated your CDP. You mention you built a platform for it but is it off on it's own or do you have it in a rack? I have my Emo, the Xray and the XXX in an open rack that has thick glass shelves and steel pillars. Do I need to put the xray/xxx on the top of the rack and have it elevated with a platform or small pillars or do I need to have it separate from all other equipment? You can see my rack at: http://www.efurno.ca/Common/NoBot/VT...Audio-Rack.htm. If you don't mind can you let me know how you would position the xray and the xxx. I ordered a couple of CD's that I really enjoy and I already have so I can make a quick A/B comparison between the xray and the toshiba and hopefully they will arrive ASAP. Also, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with the Conrad-Johnson premier 18ls pre-amp (solid state I think), as there is one for sale at audiogon for $1490. I have read some reviews and they are all pretty positive. The only weird thing is that I was viewing the audiogon post and originally the person had it on for $999 and the next thing I know is that it changed to $1490. Oh well , I could always ask the individual. Anyways any input on this pre would be appreciated. I know I may not be buying until early next year but I'd like to deteremine which pre-amp and amp combo would work the best for my needs. As it stands now my first choice would be Conrad Johnson MF2500A and CJ PV14LS2 but I'm wondering how the 18ls would work. Also, any other suggestions on amps are welcomed as well. I have been looking for the CJ MF2500A but lately none have been coming up for sale.

[frenchmon]

frenchmon, I just have a question on how you isolated and elevated your CDP. You mention you built a platform for it but is it off on it's own or do you have it in a rack? I have my Emo, the Xray and the XXX in an open rack that has thick glass shelves and steel pillars. Do I need to put the xray/xxx on the top of the rack and have it elevated with a platform or small pillars or do I need to have it separate from all other equipment? You can see my rack at: http://www.efurno.ca/Common/NoBot/VT...Audio-Rack.htm. If you don't mind can you let me know how you would position the xray and the xxx. I ordered a couple of CD's that I really enjoy and I already have so I can make a quick A/B comparison between the xray and the toshiba and hopefully they will arrive ASAP. Also, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with the Conrad-Johnson premier 18ls pre-amp (solid state I think), as there is one for sale at audiogon for $1490. I have read some reviews and they are all pretty positive. The only weird thing is that I was viewing the audiogon post and originally the person had it on for $999 and the next thing I know is that it changed to $1490. Oh well , I could always ask the individual. Anyways any input on this pre would be appreciated. I know I may not be buying until early next year but I'd like to deteremine which pre-amp and amp combo would work the best for my needs. As it stands now my first choice would be Conrad Johnson MF2500A and CJ PV14LS2 but I'm wondering how the 18ls would work. Also, any other suggestions on amps are welcomed as well. I have been looking for the CJ MF2500A but lately none have been coming up for sale.

devuonoste, I have my system sitting on an audio bench 57 inches long and 24 inches wide. I like it alot. And I have my Xray sitting on top of my old Rotel which is sitting on teh platform of the bench. The Rotel CDP I don't use anymore.

As you can see, I prefer to have my Xray sitting side by side. I have the player sitting on 5 stacks of ceramic blocks. Each block has 3 smaller square block taped together with clear packing tape. I put three of the blocks in the middle, spaced out going from front to back and one block each on the outside of the transport and the outside of the power-supply. The power-supply and the transport each share a side of the blocks in the middle. This has lifted the Xray up about 1and1/2 inches up, which gave my system a very noticeable improvement in overall sound. I've also did the same with my SACD player as well. I first did it with my Rotel CDP and have done it to all my CDP's and its worked for me every time. The ceramic I bought from homedepot for less than $5 bucks on clearance. Its really nothing more that the small square ceramic tile you see used as back splash in kitchens. All I did was buy a few and taped them together and it worked fine for me. If you don't want to fool with it, I've heard this work really well http://www.vibrapod.com/ and you can get them really cheap. I might buy some my self.

If I had your rack, I would put them side by side like I have mine, and I would put them on the top shelf, unless you have a TT. then I would go second shelf. Make sure your rack has isolated feet as well. Just click on the small picture to get a close up.

frenchmon

[Mr Peabody]

www.spearitsound.com has also had a Premier 18 for sale, higher price but guaranteed no funny business, and if you email Jack he will help you on the differences between the CJ preamps. Wait and email during the week so Jack will answer, his helper Dick isn't really a lot of help. My guess is the PV14 will have a richer midrange. The 18ls may be a good choice though being solid state if wanted to integrate two systems. Also, the "Premier" is CJ's higher quality gear so the 18ls is certainly going to be a great preamp. Probably overall better than the 14ls.

From what you report I'd be skeptical of that seller.

[devuonoste]

thanks for the info Mr. P.

[devuonoste]

frenchmon,

Sorry for being so ill informed but I don't know what a TT is. Also, my rack feet screw into the side tubes, acturally all of the side tubes and feet screw in together, and their lengths can be determined by the shelves, as they are where each tube screws in. It is very heavy and solid. Do you think it's OK? The unit looks exactly like the picture in the url I included in my post above. What is the benefit of having the CDP and XXX elevated? I know it's better sound but what specifically has improved with respect to sound quality and do you know how elevating the unit improves the sound? Thanks for the photo you sent and thanks for your help.

[frenchmon]

frenchmon,

Sorry for being so ill informed but I don't know what a TT is. Also, my rack feet screw into the side tubes, acturally all of the side tubes and feet screw in together, and their lengths can be determined by the shelves, as they are where each tube screws in. It is very heavy and solid. Do you think it's OK? The unit looks exactly like the picture in the url I included in my post above. What is the benefit of having the CDP and XXX elevated? I know it's better sound but what specifically has improved with respect to sound quality and do you know how elevating the unit improves the sound? Thanks for the photo you sent and thanks for your help.

TT=turntable. No your rack looks very nice. I was just hinting at placing something under the feet of your rack for added protection for vibrations. But you may not need it especially if you are on carpet. With me adding the blocks I got a wider sound stage, a deeper bottom end, greater highs and mids. I really notice better seperation. You will have to try it and see if you get better sound. Some people say its all sycophile stuff but it really worked for me and others. If you want to read a thead I started and a very good technical debate about why and why not it works read here. I'm rantzmar over there.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=34393

frenchmon

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

I forgot to mention as you read the debate, I think one guy said he was going to try it, and it did work for him.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

Look what this guy did to elevate his CDP....he paid good money for his isolation.






frenchmon

[devuonoste]

Thanks frenchmon. I feel kind of silly for missing turntable. I guess it's been a long time since I've considered or thought of a turntable. Very interesting thread you posted here, great read. Any thoughts on what would be better, the vibrapod or Herbies audio component feet (these were mentioned in your thread)? I could make something myself but I'm wondering if spending a little more to get ones that are purposely built would improve sound even more. At some point I'd like to get a TT but it won't be for a little while. Does anyone have any suggestions on a TT that would be relatively affordable and be a good bang for my buck? I know I should start another thread about this topic but I'm wondering if anyone here has some thoughts. I know there's some audiophiles that swear by TT sound quality and others don't like them as much due to their noisy background. Well thanks again for your help.

[frenchmon]

I'm not sure which would be better. I've only used the ceramic blocks. I've thought about buying some of the vibrapods because they look much better than my block. And the price is right as well 4@$25.

frenchmon

[devuonoste]

Well, I finally picked up my CD's and did an A/B comparison between the xray and the toshiba. I am a bit dissapointed, as the only difference seems to be an ever so slight increase in detail and a slight improvement in bass extension and impact. These improvements are not always audible and I wonder if at some points I notice a difference because I am biased. I'll have to do a lot more A/B comparisons with other CD's and spend some quite time and do some serious listening but I was hoping for a more significant change, as I think the Xray should outclass the toshiba by quite a bit. I'll have to get someone to take control of the remote and do the switching and that way it will be like a blindfold comparison and should remove any bias. Also, I'll have to get others to take a listen as well because I can't rule out any defficiencies in my hearing, although I don't think it's the case as I'm usually the one that can tell between the slightest differences in sound quality but you never know. Note that this is just my initial impression, as I have only compared the two 3 or 4 songs and for about half an hour. There should be no break in issues anymore and I'm wondering if it is the Yammy. I doubt it's my speakers as they are very highly rated by many that have had the chance of hearing them and they are supposed to have great detail and sensitivity to components upstream. I'd love to try a pre amp but I'm not sure I want to spend the money right now, I know my wife doesn't, . Mr. P. I know you were thinking of selling your CJ preamp and I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind sending me an email with a price you were hoping to get for the preamp. I can't guarantee, I will purchase now, but it will give me an idea on how much I'll have to spend in the near future. My email address is: devuonoste@hotmail.com. Thanks.

[Feanor]

Well, I finally picked up my CD's and did an A/B comparison between the xray and the toshiba. I am a bit dissapointed, as the only difference seems to be an ever so slight increase in detail and a slight improvement in bass extension and impact. ...

Well there you have it. If you are expecting CDP/CDP differences comparable to speaker/speaker or even amp/amp differences, you are likely to be disappointed.

[Mr Peabody]

Email sent. I can only guess the Yamaha is the problem. When Frenchmon brought his X-ray over the difference between it and the ERC-1 was apparent.

[devuonoste]

Feanor, I didn't expect the kind of difference as I would with a speaker/speaker comparison or amp/amp comparisons; however, I do expect some difference and as I state in my last post, I am not even sure there is ANY difference between the two. The xray should provide me with some improvement, as we're talking about an almost $3000 dedicated CDP (MSRP) vs a $200 upconverting DVD. My point above was that during those times I hear a slight difference it may be due to a bias to the xray. If I can confirm a difference, even if slight, is occurring all or most of the time when I can do a blindfold type of analysis as I state above, then I'll be happy, as I know I should probably get a significant improvement when I get a good preamp.