Speakers to hang on for life

[GMichael]

He's got enough balls now.

[Mike Cason]

I would have to say my favorites are the speakers I built myself. I built the main cabinets in 1995 with Rat Shack drivers & xovers. In 2002 after completing my new home, I purchased a 65" TV and the speakers just didn't match what the large screen presented, like in a movie theater.

I toured the high end shops and couldn't afford the 20k plus speakers on display, and quite frankly, most weren't worth the asking price IMHO. I decided in order to get what I wanted, I had to build them myself.

For the past 7 years, I've built, rebuilt, tore down and rebuilt them again so many times and have finally acheived an awesome setup. I've built my own mains, center speaker, and dual stacked subwoofers. I have 16-15" passive radiators in my mains and subs and a soundstage that puts you in the front row, center chair of any music concert or movie you watch. I re-designed the Bang & Olufsen Redline 60 surround speakers. You can listen to my system at high SPL levels virtually distortion free.

To put a value on my system would be impossible with the many hours of R & D, software, and drivers I've used and changed. The bottom line is that DIY, if done correctly and patiently, can be very rewarding.

I hold auditions for DIY groups, HT installers, and regular folks; all leaving my home in awe.

It's all about how bad you want something and how hard you will work to get it.

Mike

[Feanor]

I would have to say my favorites are the speakers I built myself.
....
To put a value on my system would be impossible with the many hours of R & D, software, and drivers I've used and changed. The bottom line is that DIY, if done correctly and patiently, can be very rewarding.

I hold auditions for DIY groups, HT installers, and regular folks; all leaving my home in awe.

It's all about how bad you want something and how hard you will work to get it.

Mike

Welcome to AR Forums, MIke. Have you got pictures of your stuff you can share with us?

[Mike Cason]

Feanor,

I tried to upload a few, but they all need resizing and I need to get to a job. I'll try to do that this evening when I get in.

In the mean time, you can visit my website in my signature and see large photos of each of the speakers I built with descriptions. I have links to Yahoo and Photobucket on the lower right side of my home page with many detailed construction photos.

Mike

[Florian]

Are you ready to make a deal?

The real question is, are you?

[Feanor]

Feanor,

I tried to upload a few, but they all need resizing and I need to get to a job. I'll try to do that this evening when I get in.

In the mean time, you can visit my website in my signature and see large photos of each of the speakers I built with descriptions. I have links to Yahoo and Photobucket on the lower right side of my home page with many detailed construction photos.

Mike

Mike, that's a great site.

I'll take the time later to read you design notes later. I'm interesting in building some speakers myself, perhaps when I'm retired in a year of so. I'd like to explore using WinISD; right now I'm doing some research using Harris Tech's BassBox and Cross Over Pro programs that are easy to use.

I respect your interest in concert DVDs. Personally I listen mostly to straight music in stereo, but I'd like to expand my opera on DVD collection which is currenly only 8 or so operas.

[Mr Peabody]

Feanor, for music on video you should be getting the Blu-ray. Big difference in audio over DVD when using the Tru-HD or DTS-MA.

[Mike Cason]

Mike, that's a great site.

I'll take the time later to read you design notes later. I'm interesting in building some speakers myself, perhaps when I'm retired in a year of so. I'd like to explore using WinISD; right now I'm doing some research using Harris Tech's BassBox and Cross Over Pro programs that are easy to use.

I use Crossover Pro 3 and it works very well.

I respect your interest in concert DVDs. Personally I listen mostly to straight music in stereo, but I'd like to expand my opera on DVD collection which is currenly only 8 or so operas.

Thanks for visiting my site and your compliment.

I've been a stereo fan for years, but with my new NAD AVR and its exceptional decoding capabilities, I find myself listening to more music and concert DVDs in Pro Logic as well as stereo.

In stereo, my mains really shine and in Pro Logic, you feel like you are in the audience with all of the suround sounds of the people and music, still with outstanding musical quality thanks to my redesign of the Bang and Olufsen Redline 60s and the quality drivers I've used in my mains..

I'll still try to resize some photos this weekend.

[Feanor]

Feanor, for music on video you should be getting the Blu-ray. Big difference in audio over DVD when using the Tru-HD or DTS-MA.

No doubt you're right, Mr P. But before I get Blu-ray I've got to get an HDTV. 27" CRT -- die, die, DIE!!

[Mr Peabody]

Back to ML's for a moment. I ran across this review of an older Quest speaker which I thought was pretty good, the reviewer hits on a lot of points you all brought up. I thought the whole matching of dynamic driver to panel was over blown because it just wasn't that apparent to me. According to this Stereophile review it wasn't to them either. They also have reviewed several models. With that being said he does talk about how you have to move front to back to get the correct, or what sounds right, spot for good tonal balance. I ran across this by accident and when he began to address disspersion patterns, crossover frequency and placement it seemed relevant to what we were discussing. Newer models do an even better job in my opinion.

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...ml/index1.html

I think I linked to the 2nd page, the first page also has some good info.

[mlsstl]

With that being said he does talk about how you have to move front to back to get the correct, or what sounds right, spot...

That gets back to the question of just how many second chances a speaker (or any piece of equipment) should get.

A year or two ago I was curious about how many different makes and models of speakers were on the market. I quit counting at one thousand. It would simply be impossible for any one person to give a thorough audition to every speaker on the market.

Martin Logan is probably in the top 20 or 25 speakers that I've heard multiple times and my reaction has been consistent. I realize that one more listen when the wind is from the east at 20 knots, there is a gibbous moon phase and Venus is in the west may provide perfection, but it shouldn't be that hard. ;-)

I had a similar conversation with a fellow over on Audiogon concerning horn speakers six months or so ago. He was quite insistent that I just hadn't heard the right one and it seemed very important to him that I develop the same level of passion that he possessed on the subject.

[JoeE SP9]

The real question is, are you?

Gee Florian. I'm only willing to give up one. The foot and my first born are totally negotiable.
Back to reality:

I have my eye on a pair of Duetta II's. I'm currently trying to negotiate with the owner. We'll see. Wish me luck.

[02audionoob]

Anyone here got any thoughts on JM Reynaud speakers, especially the little ones like the Offrande?

[E-Stat]

With that being said he does talk about how you have to move front to back to get the correct, or what sounds right, spot for good tonal balance.

The spooky thing about a true full range electrostat is that their character remains constant whether you have your face pressed up against the panels or you are at some distance away. Walking up to them from a distance has virtually no effect on the tonal balance or perspective. Just like real instruments. That is simply not the case with most speakers. My daily live reference is wifey playing her baby grand. Perhaps I am hyper-sensitive to coherency, but ever since I heard Dayton-Wrights back in '76, I have favored their uniformity. Perhaps the M-L design would be more successful to diehard planar guys like me if they chose a complementary dipole woofer arrangement as in found in Siegfried Linkwitz' highly regarded Orion. If not driver type, why not at least choose a consistent radiation pattern top to bottom?

That's most likely why I share Mlsstl's feelings about horns - while you can drive them with linear flea powered amps, each frequency range exhibits a different radiation pattern.

rw

[Mr Peabody]

I believe there can be good sounding horn speakers based on very good ones I've heard from Electro Voice. However enjoyable the liveliness or whatever you want to call that type of presentation they will always have short comings by design for sitting between them engaged in critical listening. I haven't heard the ultra expensive horn speakers but for me it don't make sense to by a 3 watt amp to have to spend $25k to hear it at adequate levels and maybe or maybe not have good sound quality.

If some one don't like ML's that's fine. I don't like Vandersteen and some do. I just didn't find the reason given justified or totally accurate. In E-stats case, if I heard other ESL designs as he has maybe I would understand that better. I agree that I don't particularly want a speaker that is difficult to set up to sound the way it should nor do I want to be the only one to enjoy them because only the "sweet spot" is where they sound "correct". I guess ML's will share with horns the fact that some will enjoy them but each will have their limitations. I found ML's have a lot to offer and some one who hasn't heard them should at least give them a try to see for themselves.

[mlsstl]

Just to set the record straight, I think people should listen to Martin Logans if they are in the speaker market. They've got a big following and plenty of places sell them so you don't have to do the pilgrimage to some remote mecca to audition them.

I also like other electrostatics. I've heard the Quads and think they are great. I'd love to own a pair if I had the right room and the money. I also like planars which share a lot of characteristics with electrostatics. (I owned a pair of Magnapan 1.6QRs for several years and only sold them due to a house move.)

As noted much earlier in this thread, I think people differ in their priorities for the various characteristics one can assign to audio reproduction. That explains why every well regarded speaker on the market always has a dedicated following as well as a contingent that simply says "yeah, whatever...."

That certainly doesn't bother me. In fact, it keeps things interesting.

[JoeE SP9]

Well said mlsstl. It's all about what you yourself like. I could live with just about any planar. Any horn or JBL's or any of the Japanese JBL clones leave me saying "whatever". I could go on and on. Everyone has their preferences. It's the same thing with the music itself.

[nightflier]

for me it don't make sense to by a 3 watt amp to have to spend $25k to hear it at adequate levels and maybe or maybe not have good sound quality.

I think the industry really hasn't addressed the problem. Electrostatic and panel speakers, for all their virtues have significant shortcommings (size, power requirements, room positioning, bass integration, necessary tweaking, etc.). We can all agree that there is no perfect speaker, but jeez, there ought to be one that is decent and possible to live with. It seems to me that there ought to be something that works better.

Another thing I try to keep in mind is that many inefficient speakers use more power than what is socially responsible. I know not many people care about this, but consider that a 200W amp, used for a few hours a day, five days a week will consume about 180KWH (Kilowatt Hours). Granted, 200W is high, but not when we consider multi-channel amps and receivers (not to mention all the other gear) that many people use as well. Multiply that by about 100K people in the US, that's 20K MWH, which equates to about 1 million gallons of oil, just to satisfy our audio pleasure (paraphrased from Teresonic website). Perhaps our desire for big panel speakers, and the huge amps to drive them, is tied to the bigger, louder, more obnoxious syndrome we all succumb to every once in a while.

There has to be a better way. Horns aren't the solution, although they have their place. If Coincident, Westlake, Teresonic, and Legacy can design speakers that are way more efficient and still highly-rated, then maybe that should be the goal. Von Sweikert, Magnepan, Dynaudio, Apogee, and the rest are perhaps the Hummers of the speaker world and need to be go on an Obama-style diet, LOL.

[Mr Peabody]

Was that article talking about class A/B? If using a digital switching amp I wouldn't think the consumption would be that bad. Besides that I'm sure there's more wasteful things to worry about, crank it!

[RGA]

Mr. P

You don't have to run a 3 watt amp if you don't want to - the great thing about efficient speakers is that you can run any amplifier - you buy based on sound quality not power requirements. Many speakers seems to need many hundreds of watts - those amps typically sound - not great. So you spend large on a tough to drive speaker and then you have to buy an expensive high watt high negative feedback amp to drive them.

[E-Stat]

but jeez, there ought to be one that is decent and possible to live with.

I've had various stats, all of which have been quite possible to live with for 32 years. "Bass integration" is unnecessary when you use a single driver or multiples of the same driver for all ten octaves.

It seems to me that there ought to be something that works better.

Full range ion speakers are as yet impractical.

Perhaps our desire for big panel speakers, and the huge amps to drive them, is tied to the bigger, louder, more obnoxious syndrome we all succumb to every once in a while.

Huh? Louder, more obnoxious? You're certainly not talking about any Maggie or electrostat I've ever heard.

There has to be a better way.

But, there isn't. Yet.

rw

[theaudiohobby]

I've had various stats, all of which have been quite possible to live with for 32 years. "Bass integration" is unnecessary when you use a single driver or multiples of the same driver for all ten octaves.

Having own some electrostats (still have two ESLs in storage) and now a horn loaded dynamic speaker, "bass integration" is as much room issue as a driver issue, infact I will go as far as saying that given a competent design, room issues are a much bigger factor than drivers similarity. Non of the full-range electrostats I have owned have integrated (smoother bass response) as well as my current Tannoys (horn-loaded coaxial) in my room. Furthermore, the Tannoys sound more coherent than the Audiostatics they replaced, coherency is influenced by a couple of factors with speaker drivers being just a single factor in that equation.

[nightflier]

What about Coincident as a speaker to own for life?

[Auricauricle]

I think that the previous post that considers the material being a key component in determining one's preference for speakers is well worth revisiting. I also subscribe to the fact that in speakers, no one has successfully developed a "one-size fits all" device.

In terms of electrostatic speakers go, to my ears, the Quad ESL 63's were and are some of the best producers of voice, wind instruments and strings. Chamber ensembles are reproduced with great presence and the coherence and staging made me feel as though I had taken a chair joined in....

With planars, I have been lucky to know a local audio dealer sells ML's, which I have spent a little time listening to. Very pleasant they were, too, but did not reproduce near the fat, round tones of the Quads, IMO. For vocals and strings (especially accoustic guitar), the ML's were very good, but I just didn't get that "wow" feeling that the Quads gave me. Other planars I have listened to are the Apogee Centaurs and the Carver Amazings. Unfortunately, I cannot recall much about the Centaurs and the Carvers weren't that amazing....

Horn-wise, I have been fortunate enough to listen to quite a few Tannoys. A friend owned a nice pair of Studio Red Monitors that reproduced big bands (with Ella Fitzgerald) very faithfully, with crisp drums and brassy trumpets and horns (yeah, I know...). I have also listened to their higher-end models including the Signatures, the Edinburghs, the Sterlings, and the Westminsters. I spent an afternoon gushing over the Edinburghs' ability to pump Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here with great finesse. Similarly, the big Tannoys were very adept at reproducing orchestras. Beethoven's 6th (Omar Suitner, Denon) was played with beautiful subtlety and love, and I fell in love with the speakers (until I saw the price). I finally bought a pair of Klipsch Hereses, which I enjoyed for awhile, until the horn-sound became unlistenable. I liked the Hereses' ability to jam out Bruce Springsteen, etc., but when my taste in music became more refined (ahem), I found their sound a bit harsh.

In conventionally designed speakers, some of the best I have listened to include some very impressive boxes made by Fried. The speakers I listened to reproduced all sources with smooth and transparent alacrity, allowing me to enjoy an immense wealth of material.

At present, I own and listen to a pair of Polk Monitor 7c's with an Eosone RSP-112. While they are not in the same league as the speakers you guys are talking about or as the ones mentioned earlier in the post, they are pleasant and enjoyable enough to endure while I grope my way through grad-school....

Just a few thoughts to wrinkle a couple of eyebrows and noses....

[AJinFLA]

At the time I was seriously looking for main speakers one of the things that was hard to get used to with ML's is the lack of that physical sensation you get from a box speaker.

That's because it is a velocity source, there is no net pressure change in the room as the box (pressure source).

Nightflier, being in CA, you really should visit Linkwitz for a listen to his Orion system. It combines all the attributes of the panel type speakers (dipoles) using much smaller piston sources (dynamic drivers). The full setup (++) includes pressure source subs that you can certainly feel, though no so much in the 80hz region as you might desire on occasion. Go give a listen for yourself.

cheers,

AJ