Speakers to hang on for life

[RGA]

The Sonus Faber Cremona speaker was over $10k - I was not a huge fan of the smaller standmounts which are the only other ones I've heard except for their top of the line model. I would not call the 1.6 remotely dynamic - quite the reverse - excellent left to right stage but not much depth and not much in the way of pressurizing a room. The Sonus Faber I heard was connected up with Linn's new streaming front end at over $10k and Simaudio's Moon i7 amplifier.

E-Stat - I get what you're saying but rather than look entirely at the "next model up" at 1200% increase why not start at the bottom. Because there are roughly 10 versions of the speaker you the customer with your hard earned money can decide which version you want and which upgrade you want and which you think is patently absurd.

I have no problem with your argument regarding increased prices but no one is holding a gun to your head. The best speaker soundhounds sells is the AN E/LX HE at $6,500 in my opinion and the guys who sell them opinions. So it's not expensive relative and is easily the best value in terms of sound they sell (granted subjective opinion based). The people who buy the upgrade models are people that want "more of the same" and added refinement in what they already feel is the best loudspeaker design on the market. People who think Magnepan is the best loudspeaker on the market would probably like to have upgrade paths - better ribbon, crossovers, connectors, etc. And if they love their speaker - they'll be willing to pay to get more out of it.

To me that is more "relevant" than the fact that AN also make a $125k version with external crossovers that use over $30,000 worth of Silver parts and all silver wired voice coils in a very rare Alnico Tweeter. Is it better than the $6500 version yes - is it worth it - probably not. It will only be worth it if you the rich customer believes it to sound better than every other speaker $125k and under.

I respect the fact that others may prefer what they prefer but walking away from those auditions at Soundhounds to be perfectly blunt the 20.1 was seriously and roundly embarrassed by the Quad, and the AN E/LX HE and the Cremona too. The salespeople just watch my reaction and laugh with a subtle "yeah we know."

But of course you and Feaner are talking to someone who is not a die-hard fan of panels - you are talking to someone who prefers HE/SET based set-ups so clearly we hear it differently. So I respect your choices and your hearing of it - you may very well go there and walk away with an entirely different perspective.

Sometimes I get too "I'm right" about this. I am merely saying this is what I heard in direct comparisons - I would be interested in your direct comparisons if you ever get an opportunity.

[Mr Peabody]

Just my opinion, the only electrostats I've heard have been Martin Logan. I can over look any blending issues with them because when listening I get more involved or attracted to the presence given by the panels. Electrostats are vastly different sounding than Maggies. I personally didn't get anything from the Maggies I've auditioned. I heard what I think must have been the 20.1's driven by Levinson and was amazed at the lack of bass response. To be fair the room this system was in had a lot of glass which could surely have been a problem. The 1.6's are at a good price and seemed to have a decent bass response to a point. But Maggies I am I guess indifferent about, I don't dislike them in the way I do Klipsch or Vandersteen, yet I don't find them to be something I desire to listen to either. To my ears the clarity and soundstage imaging pales in comparison to the ML's.

Before this thread I was not aware of Analysis Audio. After reading a couple reviews I would love to hear a pair. They also are reported to be exceptionally, or comparatively, easy to drive for a panel speaker.

I also was curious of Quad and found some Stereophile articles. Although one reviewer actually used Quad 63's as his reference as he wrote about the 989 which he admitted was better than the 63 his article didn't get me excited to want to hear a pair.

[RGA]

MR. P

You're probably talking about Art Dudly of Stereophile - he's been a long time owner of Quad panels. My contention is that for those people who like Electrostats then if there is a box speaker that you're going to like it's probably going to be the AN J or E. When I first heard stats I was a fan and they were the plan for a long time. Stat guys go to stats for a very good reason - and it's going to take something "special" to get them to change their mind. The AN E convinced Art Dudly so I am not sure why so many hav eissues with my views. Granted the way I state my opinions often comes across dogmatic.

ML's were created to get around size issues to make them domestically feasible - IMO they're not nearly as good as the Quad or Soundlab that I heard. Maggie and Quad are both panels but they're world's apart.

[E-Stat]

I have no problem with your argument regarding increased prices but no one is holding a gun to your head.

You're preaching to the choir. I'm not one of those who insists that companies who market $30k speakers are all crooks and walk away with enormous amounts of money. I've been to Dr. West's home and he does not live in a palace. In all fairness, however, AN should be included in your "for $14k, they should get the xover right" indictment.

I respect the fact that others may prefer what they prefer but walking away from those auditions at Soundhounds to be perfectly blunt the 20.1 was seriously and roundly embarrassed by the Quad, and the AN E/LX HE and the Cremona too. The salespeople just watch my reaction and laugh with a subtle "yeah we know."

And yet Feanor has experienced the opposite on different systems. The challenge with any hi-fi store is optimizing the system and the space for the speaker. And it most certainly does boil down to preference. I'm going to make a broad statement - while there are always exceptions, I find that "planar people" typically prefer classical or other forms of unamplified music. That is certainly the case with Bill and me. What music did you play in the speaker comparison?

rw

[nightflier]

It seems to me that the problem with bass is not really being addressed well by the industry. Horn and panel based bass modules are unwieldy and cone-based bass speakers are too slow to mate well. I'm just wondering, are there any other noteworthy but technologically different solutions to producing good bass?

Mr.P,

What speakers are you using in your 2-channel system? Or are you using headphones only?

[Mr Peabody]

My two systems share the Dynaudio t2.5. I should probably add something about that to my sig. I just switch the cables at the speaker for the application.

[RGA]

E-Stat

With regards to crossover - it depends if you're upgrading to fix a problem that if otherwise un fixed would lead you to sell the loudspeaker for something else or if you are upgrading to get an improvement merely because you can afford to. The design is the same the parts are improved - In the 20.1's case is the design altered or is just improved parts?

With the AN E part of the reason is that two things are changed - the woofer is changed for a different material which means a different crossover and or the type of woofer. The AN E has 6 different woofers at increased costs as one moves up the line. When you change a woofer it also requires a different crossover.

The AN E was originally designed by an opera house designer and acoustics expert L.L. beranek- Peter Qvortrup has one of the worl's largest collections of classical music. The original distributor Leonard Norwitz was and is a classical music reviewer. I think it's pretty safe to say the speaker is designed first and foremost with classical music in mind. It just happens to be able to do other things not just classical music. I don't see why one can't have their cake and eat it too. Art Dudly seems to enjoy listening to classical music on them as well.

My comparison is an assortment usually Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, Vivaldi's Four Seasons, Albinoni Oboe concertos (I played the Oboe), Barber. I am by no means "expert" on classical music beyond the emotional gut level. One poster on AA Soundmind/Skeptic would go on about the superiority of Piano over people who played violins and judged talent by the difficulty of the instrument. And his all Rock was rubbish and Coltrane is a talentless hack routine. If it moves me then I like it - for me that's the point of music.

Nevertheless, the dynamics in other kinds of music and recordings are important because if the system can't reproduce say Sarah McLachlan's "Silence" or Big Band, then it likely isn't doing classical justice either. It may be that the classical only speaker is shying away from the heavey lifting by compressing the sound into something pleasing but not giving you most of what's on the disc.

Granted I also usually bring something like Loreena McKennitt's The Lady of Shalott, Jackson Browne Acoustic stuff, Gloria Estefan, Madonna. I don't believe this music should suffer so greatly because franly it isn't that difficult to reproduce. Which means the speaker that can't do it can't do complex full range classical music either. As a classical music listener it is usually the first genre of music I play. Piano - the full rich tonality of the instrument. It's the acoustic instruments that makes the AN E stand out at Soundhounds. The Cremona has good bass and can play rock loud - you could as a rocker make the case for them or the B&W 802D that Soundhounds also carries. Quad and Magnepan have the exapnsive soundstages.

For me with acoustic instruments and human voice the only thing there that is in the running is the 2905 at double the price. But it is seriously compromised on Sarah McLachlan type stuff, rock, Madonna etc. Preferences - bottom line.

[E-Stat]

With regards to crossover - it depends if you're upgrading to fix a problem that if otherwise un fixed would lead you to sell the loudspeaker for something else or if you are upgrading to get an improvement merely because you can afford to.

There is nothing to *fix* other than to improve the quality of the parts. Just like with the Sound Lab hot rod option. There is no requirement to use Vishay resistors or Jensen inductors any more than there is the need for $40,000 worth of silver wire.

My comparison is an assortment usually...

Very well. Different music requires different gear. I like the fact that the AN design is a simple two-way affair.

rw

[nightflier]

I just got this from AudioAdvisor. Apparently they are now carrying Thiel speakers, at the same price as Crutchfield, BTW. What caught my eye is that Wes Phillips considers the CS3.7s speakers to hold onto for life. Considering he's hear some of the best speakers in the world, including ones that cost in the tens of thousands, it's a remarkable endorsement for a speaker that "only" costs $13K (that being about the price-point above which most people here seem to agree the price does not equate the value):

http://campaign.constantcontact.com/...335xFeInaVo%3D

Anyhow, for those who won't go planar, which it seems many people here consider the speaker to hold onto for life, maybe this is one alternative. I've only heard these at briefly in a show setting, so I can't really say much about them, but they did not sound special or different to me. Maybe I should give them a try.

On a more practical note, I wonder what their little SCS4s can do? In that size, I had always considered the little Harbeth HL-P3ES-2s the speaker to hold onto for life. But I'm not familiar with either.

[RGA]

I said this on another forum but if you are going to trust reviews then the two best ways to me are as follows.

1) Consensus - if many reviewers at many different magazines all agree about the sound of a particular product then it may have a better chance of you liking it too.

2) Find a reviewer with a similar ear to you. If they have reviewed 10 things and it is obvious from reading between the lines that you agree with that reviewer in most or all cases then if he likes something it may be worth seeking out.

You can't hear everything so the above two can widdle down the choices.

PS: Wes Philips is one guy like any reviewer. This is what he said about a system with the AN E:

Forget best sound of show, for sheer emotional delivery, timbral clarity, dynamic agility, and, yes, the highest fidelity, the Audio Note system may have been the best hi-fi I have ever heard. It was one of those magical moments that we audiophiles put up with all of the hassles for.
After the Audio Note demo. the rest was noise, so I quit on a winner. Not many people who come to Vegas can say that." http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/

For me personally I like to read that because I have been saying it for years and keep getting pounded for it. Nightflier - you clearly do not need any reviewer to tell you what's good. I suggest just listening and forgetting what reviewers have to say - be the reviewer!

[nightflier]

RGA, I take it that Wes has an ear similar to yours, LOL.

[RGA]

Nightflier

Actually I have not read a whole lot of Wes Philips and I'm not a big fan of Thiel but it's been a long time and opinions change - I hated V8 in my teens and now I quite like the drink.

But here's the thing because Wes made the comments he did and I agree with him - it makes me now want to revisit Thiel - because obviously the guy has good ears.

This is what I found about Art Dudley - he bought a pair of AN E's and so I went back and revisited the Quads. I never cared for the 57 or the 63 but he did love the 989. I went and auditioned a few times and the 989 replacement the 2905 I found a dose of magic in. I might find the same with the Thiels.

[IBSTORMIN]

My speaker of a lifetime is Infinity's RS-1B and there is a pair (four towers) on E-bay right now, no bids and $2250 to start! Haven't heard them, but would like to own them. I hear they are outstanding! I wish I could drive out there and pick them up. ANYONE in LA that can, please listen to them and tell me what they sound like!!!!!! Drool a little for me too.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...0694&viewitem=

[JoeE SP9]

I haven't heard them but I have heard the IRS Beta's I loved them. Still do!

[IBSTORMIN]

I haven't heard them but I have heard the IRS Beta's I loved them. Still do!

Ya just had to one up me, didn't ya. OOOHHHH YEAHHHHH IRS Beta - The Holy Grail ! ! ! Now That's what I REALLY want ! ! !

[nightflier]

I guess I was just fishing for some opinions on Thiels. They are still a bit out of my budget, but if they could be speakers to hang onto for life, it would be a good investment. Up there with Revel, Dynaudio, and Legacy, perhaps?

[JoeE SP9]

Ya just had to one up me, didn't ya. OOOHHHH YEAHHHHH IRS Beta - The Holy Grail ! ! ! Now That's what I REALLY want ! ! !

They still want your first born, right testicle and your right foot for them! I'm considering trying to negotiate a deal.

[basite]

I guess I was just fishing for some opinions on Thiels. They are still a bit out of my budget, but if they could be speakers to hang onto for life, it would be a good investment. Up there with Revel, Dynaudio, and Legacy, perhaps?

definately check them out...

heard the CS3.7's numerous times and was amazed of what they can do. Especially when you compare them with much more expensive speakers...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[E-Stat]

They still want your first born, right testicle and your right foot for them! I'm considering trying to negotiate a deal.

Not as much as the original IRS. Where the Betas went for a *mere* 10k, the IRS was more like $90k in its final years. I first heard them back in 1980. The Beta was a scaled down version of the monster.

Infinity Reference System

rw

[nightflier]

Just the right testicle? Hmmmm.

[IBSTORMIN]

They still want your first born

My first born is my 32 year old son that moved away from us to San Diego. A year ago He took my first grandchild, apple of my eye three year old granddaughter, with him. I'm pissed at him so they can have him.

right testicle

I got two, been married 33 years to the same woman so I don't use them much anymore. They can have that too.

and your right foot for them!

Now that might be a problem. Can't dance to the music.

[JoeE SP9]

My son is a sophomore at Rutgers. So, he might as well be gone.
My testicles I want to keep. I have a new girlfriend who is magazine pretty.
I need both feet. They give me traction when were doin' the do'.

Although, if someone made me an offer I might think about it! NOT!!!
BTW I saw a pair for sale recently. I think it was on Agon.

[Florian]

Didnt you post that you would give a testicle for the Grand ;-)

[GMichael]

They can have one of my testicles when I'm dead. Till then, I'll settle for the speakers I have.

[JoeE SP9]

Didnt you post that you would give a testicle for the Grand ;-)

Are you ready to make a deal?