Week 6: 50 Albums that Changed Music

[Troy]

Which MK song was that, Brad? Give me a link if you got one.

Was there ever a punk SRV? Someone respected as a player like he was? I'm sure a few will turn up, but I think they won't exactly be major artists and they are probably crossing over into other sub-genres of rock. The punk thing just wasn't about "Have you seen that guitar player? He really makes it sing." Emotional responses to punk rock consist of "Yawwwwww!!" and then you sucker-punch the guy next to you. Punk was about the visceral agressive, in-the-moment angst of feeling oppressed and furious at the world. You know, teenage stuff. There's so much more to life that I want to see reflected in music.

This whole argument about having chops is better than not having them is moot anyway. There are excellent artists at either end of the spectrum, it's a case by case situation with every band. It's a stupid argument that one genre is better than another. It's like arguing over whether Hefenweizen is good beer or not. There's no correct answer.

Why did Patti only influence women artists? (No one's mentioned Allanis Morrisette yet) What woman influenced Patti? Joan Baez? Joni Mitchell? Suzi Quatro? Or was she more influenced by male artists? If that's the case, then there were about 1000 artists closer to the trunk of the tree than her. No, she's on the list specifically because she's a woman.

All I keep seeing in my minds eye is Gilda Radner doing her infamous Patti Smith sketch from the late 70s. It was terribly insulting, but a spot on representation of what she was like when I saw her. Wendy O. Williams was a lot more fun.

As to whether the list is random or not is news to me. I guess I am the only one that never looked at the whole list . . .

[3-LockBox]

This is supposed to be the SIXTH MOST INFLUENTIAL ALBUM OF ALL TIME!!

I was kinda thinking this list was in no particular order.

I don't know what the gender of the person/s responsible for this list, but it smacks of someone lauding their own personal collection.

[MindGoneHaywire]

>No one's mentioned Allanis Morrisette yet

You responded to a post of mine that you obviously didn't read. Hmm?

>Was there ever a punk SRV? Someone respected as a player like he was?

Close. Wayne Kramer, Robert Quine, Richard Lloyd, Tom Verlaine, Billy Zoom, Mick Jones, Chris Spedding...I can go on, if you wish. Obviously not as popular, and probably not quite as respected, but certainly close. But so what? It's a genre that wasn't necessarily about playing. Which seems to translate somehow to it being a genre that was about not being able to play well, which is nonsense unless you're looking to read into a Steve Jones remark as being the basis for a movement that existed when he was still playing Chuck Berry riffs in a musical environment whose most daring figures were doing glam, glitter, and pub rock.

>The punk thing just wasn't about "Have you seen that guitar player? He really makes it sing."

It was to some people, actually. Are you that unaware of the mystique that Johnny Thunders embodied? He was the contradiction in terms suggested by the phrase 'punk rock star.' And players far technically superior to him admired him greatly. But then he made it sing, and they couldn't.

>Emotional responses to punk rock consist of "Yawwwwww!!" and then you sucker-punch the guy next to you.

Nonsense on stilts. In more than 20 years of listening to the stuff & attending the shows, I've never seen nor heard of what you're describing.

>Punk was about the visceral agressive, in-the-moment angst of feeling oppressed and furious at the world. You know, teenage stuff.

Patti, Television, Richard Hell, X, and the Clash were singing about teenage stuff? Gee, that's interesting. Patti Smith was 28 when this record came out. Richard Hell was the same age when his first record was released, and his guitar player was 35. When the first Television album came out, Tom Verlaine was 28, Richard Lloyd 26. Debbie Harry was over 30 by this time, Chris Stein 26 when the first Blondie rec came out. Just because the Ramones & the Dictators sung about teenage stuff doesn't mean that's 'what punk rock was about.' Do you not even know what the lyrics these people wrote were about?

>There's so much more to life that I want to see reflected in music.

Yeah, it's not like art, poetry & jazz had anything to do with what these people were doing. All teenage stuff. I see.

>It's a stupid argument that one genre is better than another.

Agreed. But if you read the thread again, you'll see where the connection between this record and 'punk rock' was questioned, on the basis of the competent musicianship. Then you'll see where I did bring up Alanis Morrissette. What you won't see is me arguing 'better.'

>Why did Patti only influence women artists?

Who said that? A focus on her influence in that respect has to exclude her influence on non-females? I guess you REALLY didn't read my post. Hell, the first record I mentioned as showing a significant Horses influence was the Jim Carroll record.

Pay attention, would ya?

>she's on the list specifically because she's a woman.

So what? So she shouldn't be there, because she's a woman? It's easier to be lazy & only point to female artists or female-fronted rock bands that she influenced, but that doesn't make it impossible to look elsewhere. There WAS a 'women in rock' movement, even if it was only created by the press, again, whether you like it or not. Why are you looking to deny it? There was a hair metal movement 20 years ago, whether I like it or not. I don't deny it.

>Gilda Radner doing her infamous Patti Smith sketch from the late 70s. It was terribly insulting, but a spot on representation of what she was like when I saw her.

I didn't think it insulting at all. Do you think Patti Smith found Candy Slice insulting? Maybe she did, but that was done at the same time Patti's most successful song was done, the Bruce Springsteen cover. I've always thought Patti Smith was kind of uptight & lacking in a sense of humor, someone who takes things waaayyyy too seriously, but I don't think she's not smart enough to get bent out of shape over a parody.

3lock...

>I was kinda thinking this list was in no particular order.

No, it is numbered, but there's no particular rationale presented anywhere as to WHY the numbered order is to be taken as, say, 'the MOST influential record' vs. 'the FIFTIETH most influential record.'

>it smacks of someone lauding their own personal collection.

Well, of course. True, but kinda obvious. It's possible a music writer would write a piece about 'important' or 'best' or 'influential' albums while looking towards records they DON'T own, but kind of unlikely. Do keep in mind that they more than likely have grown up reading a lot of what's written about pop music, which means they've read a lot about many of these records. I have no problem with challenging the selections, but if that's what we're going to do, a little logic & reason wouldn't hurt, ya think? A dismissal of Horses with a flippant 'meh' doesn't stand up so far as I'm concerned, even if you factor in a pro-punk/anti-prog bias (which isn't as visible here as some might wish it to be...so they can b*tch about it). I'll do my best to find better reasons to dismiss choices when we start getting to the overload of Britpop, even if it's there because this piece came from a British paper.

That said, the selection I think that has the potential to be as controversial as any on the list has a placement I will vigorously defend when the time comes.

[Troy]

Jeepers J, you gotta not take this so seriously. So I missed your Alanis comment. There's a LOT of words in this thread, OK? Sheesh.

I just don't buy Johnny Thunder being considered a "guitar rock star" Taking solos like a SRV would be booed off the stage at a real punk show.

All the punk shows I went to back in the day were excuses for brawls and lurid public drunkeness. Perhaps it's calmed down in the interveneing years, but then that kinda goes against what the whole punk thing was originally about, don't it?

Rock music is 90% teenage music. Kids stuff. Get over it. Punk bands manifested it differently, but yes, it was ultimately just a way for kids to piss off their parents and look cool to their peers. Anytime rock tries to move beyond that, that music is roundly shouted down by the cogniscenti rock press as being "pretentious" when the reality is that precious stuff like Patti and Television were just as pretentious in thier own way.

Wow, Jim Carroll. That's the only male you could come up with? LOL.

Look, clearly I didn't catch that these are not in any order. My bad (I guess, I mean, I never saw any rules so the obvious assumption is that they ARE in order).

My major gripe was that Patti is given far too much importance being placed 6th. But it sounds like you woulda seen it as BS too.

I can't deny that she influenced all those artists, but that was never the point of my argument.

Frankly, she doesn't deserve this much typing!

[3-LockBox]

3LB said: it smacks of someone lauding their own personal collection.

Well, of course. True, but kinda obvious. It's possible a music writer would write a piece about 'important' or 'best' or 'influential' albums while looking towards records they DON'T own, but kind of unlikely.

Well, I would hope that a writer (or group of writers) would try to have a broader veiw of such a list than just their own personal tastes (of course, you can't twist their arm, and they did get paid where as we, well...) It isn't the "50 albums that changed music for me" list, but the writer certainly seems to concentrate of his/herself. A "50 albums that changed music for 3LB" list is going to be vastly different from yours, just as your list will vary drastically to someone else, so on and so forth, you get the picture. But this rag is making a pretty bold comment by stating that this list is the "50 albums...". Its their rag and they have a right to their opinion. Certainly, Patti Smith was influencial on someone, I've heard other female artists say as much. For me, its the "that changed music" part that I question. The term "changed music" implies a lasting, indelible and obvious mark was left on the face of music. The Village People can lay more claim to that than a third of this articles picks.

Myself, I'd like to think I could come up with a similar list that was more comprehensive, and objective, but then again, that'd prolly be impossible, and boring. (don't worry, I'm not even going to try) I think that in the coming months, this weeks installment is gonna seem way more intelligent compared to what's coming down the pike.

[BradH]

Which MK song was that, Brad? Give me a link if you got one.

I got it in a trade a couple of years ago. I'll just send the whole show. The sound quality is good enough for official release. MK has quite a few boots of that caliber. This blues is at the end where some crappy girl singer w/ the club joins in for another train wreck like the Zappanale Festival in Germany. MK's solo is a passable rock solo. "Pathetic" is probably too strong a word. But it's hardly SRV caliber. My point is this: if the blues are so freaking simple and stupid then MK should be able to pull off a scorcher but it's just not in him.

Was there ever a punk SRV?

No.

Someone respected as a player like he was?

Yes.

I'm sure a few will turn up, but I think they won't exactly be major artists and they are probably crossing over into other sub-genres of rock.

No, no, let me guess. Punk is garbage but the stuff that's good is (drum roll, please)...New Wave. It's a phony distinction cooked up by the post-disco music industry after the press decided the Sex Pistols were ground zero for punk.

The punk thing just wasn't about "Have you seen that guitar player? He really makes it sing."

It certainly was in Tom Verlaine's case. But I guess what Television was doing in 1975 was post-punk New Wave because it didn't sound like what Generation X was doing in 1979. (Or Green Day in 2006.)

Punk was about the visceral agressive, in-the-moment angst of feeling oppressed and furious at the world. You know, teenage stuff.

Sounds like the L.A. version to me. Which I never liked. I'm not a Patti Smith fan but when you mention her name, "mosh pit" is not exactly the first thing that comes to mind.

Why did Patti only influence women artists?

What about Michael Stipe? Oh wait, never mind. Actually, I'm not sure what this has to with anything. Horses was influential. Do I like it? No. I don't give a rat's @ss about her intellectual, angst filled vision of New York. I prefer the Ramones' vision or Television or Talking Heads. But Jay's right, this is like the VU thread where the counter-argument regarding influence consists of holding your fingers in your ears, jumping up and down and saying, "It sucks, it sucks, it sucks..."

[3-LockBox]

But Jay's right, this is like the VU thread where the counter-argument regarding influence consists of holding your fingers in your ears, jumping up and down and saying, "It sucks, it sucks, it sucks..."

No, I don't think anyone said it sucked. I don't question whether she ever influenced anyone or if the album itself was influential. I question whether it 'changed music'.

Yes, Patti Smith (and perhaps this album) was influencial to a number of acts. But did this album change music? I don't think so. This album wasn't exactly innovative or different to my ears. She seemed very influenced by VU, in fact, that's how I'd sum Smith up; she's a female version of Lou Reed, only with armpit hair and less make-up.

[MasterCylinder]

Yes, Patti Smith (and perhaps this album) was influencial to a number of acts. But did this album change music? I don't think so. This album wasn't exactly innovative or different to my ears. She seemed very influenced by VU, in fact, that's how I'd sum Smith up; she's a female version of Lou Reed, only with armpit hair and less make-up.
__________________


Agreed.
Didn't change music, armpit hair and less make-up......same tits though.

[skewiff]

Is this the 6th most influencial album? Don't know, but I do know this is a hughly influencial album.

Jay has it correct, you can hear the PSG in all of the artists he mentions, I personally think Patti Smith is iconic. Before her we basically had the singer/songwriter female artist(no need to list them) and after Horses....... I think U2 need to be included in the list of influenced.

I love Horses, Easter and most of her later work.

Tony

[Resident Loser]

...Maurice either...it's that other guy...you know the other joker...Hey Troy, welcome to the club!

Seems as though MGH has a problem with folks dismissing his personal faves, eh? Well, whadya' expect from a card-carrying Manhattanite...

Even if I scratch my head real hard, the only PS song I can come up with is her "collaboration" with Springsteen on Because The Night...

Like the old ad used to say "...When you say Bud, you've said it all..." I concur with Troy's BFD on this one...

As an aside, if you eliminate Sinatra and Davis from the list, it leaves you pretty much with rock/pop in it's broadest sense...so, if the compilers have stated re: The Velvet Bathrobe and Necco Wafer

"...has since become arguably the most influential rock album of all time..."

...and they go on to place it in the number one spot, why is it not a fair estimation that there is a specific pecking order and that the Horsey offering from P(m)S is indeed their choice of sixth-most influential album?

jimHJJ(..."neigh" say I...BTW given the choices, I also think the list is about 40 or so albums too long...)

[MindGoneHaywire]

Troy...

>Jeepers J, you gotta not take this so seriously.

Like I've got anything better to do. Why'd you think I haven't emailed you back, anyway?

>I just don't buy Johnny Thunder being considered a "guitar rock star"

Well, that's not what I said. I stand by "punk rock star." If you disagree, you'll have to back that up with something.

>Taking solos like a SRV would be booed off the stage at a real punk show.

Maybe you can let us all know what a 'real' punk rock show is, then. I've seen plenty of jamming at what I always thought were, but you're now letting us know weren't, punk rock shows. Geez, I thought you might've actually heard Marquee Moon. That song & Another World from the first Voidoids album are both 10 minutes long, or longer. There are long songs on Patti Smith records, also. Thunders traded off extended solos with Walter Lure regularly. And most punk rock bands did have guitar solos, the Ramones were an exception. Is the smoke you're blowing at least capable of intoxication? Don't Bogart that red herring.

Remember, Johnny Thunders was the guy whose band Sid Vicious worked with after the Sex Pistols broke up. Are you now going to tell us that wasn't real punk, either?

>All the punk shows I went to back in the day were excuses for brawls and lurid public drunkeness.

Brad's right, that was a California thing. In these parts it was usually, if not always, about the music. We all know about riots at Black Flag shows. Ever hear of that happening at CBGB's?

>Perhaps it's calmed down in the interveneing years, but then that kinda goes against what the whole punk thing was originally about, don't it?

You're apparently more of an authority than I ever realized. But I don't know what you're talking about.

>Rock music is 90% teenage music.

This coming from the guy who's into Zappa, XTC, Wall Of Voodoo, and prog. I think this hasn't been true for about 4 decades now.

>Anytime rock tries to move beyond that, that music is roundly shouted down by the cogniscenti rock press as being "pretentious" when the reality is that precious stuff like Patti and Television were just as pretentious in thier own way.

Go back to the week 1 thread & see what I replied to you about artsy-fartsy/pretentious. That doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, or not worth listening to. I like plenty of stuff that I'd agree is considered pretentious. It can be annoying, for sure, but it's not the end-all and be-all kiss of death. Patti Smith's obsession with poetry, love of Mapplethorpe & his ideas, and fixation on the mistresses of artists she admired aren't what I like about her music, but it wouldn't exist in the form it does if not for those things, so I accept that it's artsy-fartsy.

I also accept that she was something of a female Iggy on stage, she didn't break her neck mid-performance in 1978 skipping rope, ya know. She was also known to have diddled herself while onstage. If you're going to bring Wendy O. into this, you're going to have to accept that she was a female GG Allin to Patti's Iggy.

>Wow, Jim Carroll. That's the only male you could come up with?

Oh, brother. One, it was off the top of my head, two, I tend not to point to names I'm not huge fans of if I'm talking about influence in these terms, three, it is easier to focus on the 'women in rock' thing you're so eager to dismiss. Okay. REM? Sonic Youth? There are three males in X, too. Talking Heads, perhaps? Violent Femmes? Beck?

>My major gripe was that Patti is given far too much importance being placed 6th. But it sounds like you woulda seen it as BS too.

Yeah, something like that.

>Frankly, she doesn't deserve this much typing!

She does when the discussion involves the stuff you're typing.


3lock...

>this rag is making a pretty bold comment by stating that this list is the "50 albums...".

Maybe, but the article is titled 50 albums that changed music, not THE 50...

>Its their rag and they have a right to their opinion.

It's a Sunday newspaper, and it is an opinion piece in an arts section.

>For me, its the "that changed music" part that I question. The term "changed music" implies a lasting, indelible and obvious mark was left on the face of music. The Village People can lay more claim to that than a third of this articles picks.

I'd disagree with that. It's not 'sold a lot of records' or 'captured the mass imagination.' The Village People may have advanced gay disco music, but it already existed and their impact was felt through singles, not albums--and to this day it's pretty clear that a lot of people don't even get that their songs are gay anthems.

>I don't think anyone said it sucked.

I think Brad was referring to the use of the term 'Meh.' I took it to mean something similar.

>did this album change music? I don't think so. This album wasn't exactly innovative or different to my ears.

In 1975? Really? Perhaps you could name a few albums you'd heard to that point that make this sound neither innovative nor different. The closest similarity would be to 2 of the 4 VU albums, so far as I can tell; Leonard Cohen didn't have a lot in the way of her version of Gloria, I don't think, and musically I hear a world of difference between her & other singer-songwriters such as Dylan (for whom I feel a direct comparison with Patti Smith is osmething of an insult, frankly).


mastercylinder...

>Agreed.
Didn't change music

If she, along with Joni Mitchell, wasn't the prime influence on 'women in rock,' please tell me who was.


genius...

>Seems as though MGH has a problem with folks dismissing his personal faves, eh?

This record is not a personal fave of mine, and, outside of 'Birdland,' I haven't listened to it in years. I have a problem with people denying influence because it's not one of THEIR personal faves.

>Even if I scratch my head real hard, the only PS song I can come up with is her "collaboration" with Springsteen on Because The Night...

What honesty. Provides us with a strong frame of reference for yr credibility in discussing the influence of the record.

>I concur with Troy's BFD on this one...

Then by all means please tell us who influenced the artists I listed: the Pretenders, X, Suzanne Vega, Alanis Morrissette, Liz Phair, the Liliths, hell, how about Sinead O'Connor or maybe even Sheryl Crow...PJ Harvey? And please, if you could keep it to some artists you can point to who were influential on these people, rather than telling us how this listing consists of worthless nonentities who never did anything, that'd be real swell.

>why is it not a fair estimation that there is a specific pecking order and that the Horsey offering from P(m)S is indeed their choice of sixth-most influential album?

I seem to remember seeing this point mentioned before, and agreeing with it. To a point. Either you feel the record was influential, or not, as a "BFD" would indicate not. I'd never call this the 6th most influential record of all time, but I'm not taking the numerical order as seriously as you apparently are. And I did notice the word 'arguably' in yr own quote.

>"neigh" say I

Fair enough. Outside of the profound "BFD," perhaps you could let us know why.

[SlumpBuster]

I just don't buy Johnny Thunder being considered a "guitar rock star" Taking solos like a SRV would be booed off the stage at a real punk show.

All the punk shows I went to back in the day were excuses for brawls and lurid public drunkeness. Perhaps it's calmed down in the interveneing years, but then that kinda goes against what the whole punk thing was originally about, don't it?

Okay, I've been resisting the urge to jump to the defense of punk. It is my fave genre, so I'm biased. Besides, MGH been doing a fine job. However...

First, Patty is a great choice. She was one of the first women to swagger out on stage with her d!ck pulled out. And, if you weren't careful you might get slapped in the face with it too. When she sang "Rock & Roll N------" it meant something. Imagine that volitilty of that song being released today. Someone suggested Wendy O. Williams. While I love Wendy, she is too tragic of a figure. Patty and Wendy are two separate breeds.

Second, I've seen SRV quality guitar solos at punk shows. Social D has some incindeary playing. Anti-flag has some similarly massive guitar shredding, IMO.

Finally, the problem with Troy's analysis (and subsequent bagging on punk) is the assumption that punk can be defined as something. That there is a difference between real punk and fake punk. I think punk is to slippery to be confined to a definition. In the documentary, "Another State of Mind" there is a scene where Minor Threat is playing some dive, but they don't have a PA for the singer. They play anyway and the crowd supplies the vocals. Its a great scene that captures a real punk moment. Doesn't sound like a bunch of drunk kids beating on eachother.

As far as I'm concerned, punk has room enough for all. Even crap like Good Charlotte. One Good Charlotte record may lead a 12 year old girl to Sum 41 then to Dookie, then the Ramones, then Joan Jett, then on down the line until one day you hear "Kick out the Jams" and "I just wanna be your dog" blasting from her dorm room freshman year. Now that's punk rock.

[nobody]

Actually the idea that punk mellowed later is really oppsite of the truth. Punk started out really diverse and inclusive. It didn't get regimented until later days. Admittidly, there was a lot of the violent stuff around though. I was young and angry around 80-83/4...good times with all that stuff. But there was so much more.

And, ya know, it doesn't have to be all prog vs. punk anyway. Pat Smear of the Germs was a huge Yes fan after all. And if you want endless jamming, check out the all instrumetal Black Flag Process of Weeding Out album...nothing but ten minute jam sessions.

And, if you want a single great musician, I'll nominate George Hurley of the Minutemen as a drummer that could play with ANYBODY. Check him out sometime...we're not talking straight up 4/4 rocking hard either. He was powerful, but could play a lot of intricate rythms and was much more than just a backbeat to the band.

[MindGoneHaywire]

The main problem with Troy's attempts to define punk is that it wasn't around very long before the sorts of generalizations he's putting forth sounded kinda foolish. Between Detroit, NYC, London, and L.A., it became too broad within 3 years to be able to apply any particular generalization accurately.

The other problem is that he's just plain wrong, because relatively long-form guitar lead work was commonplace among bands like Television, and the Heartbreakers, as I've mentioned, did plenty of jamming as well. To say that such stuff at 'real' punk shows would've inspired booing is simply uninformed, and I'd love to see the argument that says that either of those bands, both of which were co-founded by Richard Hell, were somehow not 'real' punk. Since Thunders' posing, outfits, and 'rock star' attitude were apparently so antithetical to what some people think this was supposed to be all about, I have to wonder why Sid Vicious chose to have him in his band.

[SlumpBuster]

Since Thunders' posing, outfits, and 'rock star' attitude were apparently so antithetical to what some people think this was supposed to be all about, I have to wonder why Sid Vicious chose to have him in his band.

Agreed, except for the Sid Vicious part. He's not really a paragon of good judgment.

[MindGoneHaywire]

Of course, but keep in mind that he did some good things musically. Like lifting the part from the Jam's In The City to create the riff for Holidays In The Sun, doing a great vocal on the Eddie Cochrane covers, an interesting take on My Way, and...working with Thunders.

Violently attacking Patti Smith's brother, apparently without provocation, was not a particularly bright or laudable move. But the point is that prior to the aspect of punk that was anti-rock star becoming a talking point for people who thought it was defined by that far more than it ever actually was, plenty of punk bands were not defined by this at all. The last show the Patti Smith Group played was for something like 75,000 people in Italy, and in their last year or two the Ramones played for audiences of similar sizes in South America. If guys like Thunders who weren't shy about soloing somehow weren't real punk, then why, and why would Sid have wanted to work with him?

[Dusty Chalk]

I hope it's obvious that what I stated was a generality, in explanation of Jay's general aphorism. Just as Jay's statement was an overgenerality, so was mine.

Hey, Troy, you're a Bill Nelson fan, where does he fit in?

[MindGoneHaywire]

That's fine, Dusty. But I didn't refuse to remember anything.

If more people knew exactly what is involved in playing even three chords properly, we wouldn't waste much time with this nonsense because someone has a mistaken impression about something; and if others knew the slightest detail about the musical qualifications of people they seem to think possessed none, then nobody would care about how seriously I take any of this, either.

[Resident Loser]

genius...

>Seems as though MGH has a problem with folks dismissing his personal faves, eh?

This record is not a personal fave of mine, and, outside of 'Birdland,' I haven't listened to it in years. I have a problem with people denying influence because it's not one of THEIR personal faves.

>Even if I scratch my head real hard, the only PS song I can come up with is her "collaboration" with Springsteen on Because The Night...

What honesty. Provides us with a strong frame of reference for yr credibility in discussing the influence of the record.

>I concur with Troy's BFD on this one...

Then by all means please tell us who influenced the artists I listed: the Pretenders, X, Suzanne Vega, Alanis Morrissette, Liz Phair, the Liliths, hell, how about Sinead O'Connor or maybe even Sheryl Crow...PJ Harvey? And please, if you could keep it to some artists you can point to who were influential on these people, rather than telling us how this listing consists of worthless nonentities who never did anything, that'd be real swell.

>why is it not a fair estimation that there is a specific pecking order and that the Horsey offering from P(m)S is indeed their choice of sixth-most influential album?

I seem to remember seeing this point mentioned before, and agreeing with it. To a point. Either you feel the record was influential, or not, as a "BFD" would indicate not. I'd never call this the 6th most influential record of all time, but I'm not taking the numerical order as seriously as you apparently are. And I did notice the word 'arguably' in yr own quote.

>"neigh" say I

Fair enough. Outside of the profound "BFD," perhaps you could let us know why.

...and pretty much still have none...It was your vague reference to 'the other guy" and "other joker" in your response to Troy that caught my attention...

Duh? Neigh...Horsey...cheez Louise...

Other than the Springsteen ref, she leaves no particular musical memories...I barely recall Radner's SNL spoof...

jimHJJ(...like I said, about 40 or so albums too long...)

[MindGoneHaywire]

No offense intended. My references were based on previous postings.

>I concur with Troy's BFD on this one...

>"neigh" say I...

>I had no opinion...
...and pretty much still have none...

People with 'no opinion' by definition do not concur with those of others, and they abstain from votes. People with no musical memories of the rec in question merely appear foolish offering 'neigh' when they can present no evidence to back up their 'neigh's. I do not say this to be hostile, and I'm much more interested in the why of yr 'neigh' than I am in the backpeddle of the denial of a stated position. Given no knowledge of the subject in question, which you have acknowledged, there must be a reason why you offered anything at all, and it speaks directly to my references to you in this thread on the basis of the other one.

I mean, come on. Be a devil's advocate; surely you're up to the task. Tell us about a couple of people I already mentioned, like Joni Mitchell or Laura Nyro, or a couple I didn't, like the Runaways or Janis Ian, to make the point that Horses wasn't influential. You'd be wrong, but I'm used to that, and at least it'd add something to the discussion beyond inexplicably stating you have no opinion on a subject you just offered one on.

[BradH]

If more people knew exactly what is involved in playing even three chords properly, we wouldn't waste much time with this nonsense because someone has a mistaken impression about something...

I wouldn't be so sure of that. I've heard some musicians say some incredibly stupid things. I'm sure you have too.

And, ya know, it doesn't have to be all prog vs. punk anyway.

That was mostly a British thing that got picked up over here as the hip thing to say. In the U.K. it was all wrapped up in class hatred and socialist politics. Liking Hawkwind might've been okay with Lydon because they were from the communes of Portobello Rd. but the decadent, high end artsiness of Roxy Music was right out. But the lion's share of that was posturing anyway. Looking aggressive and angry was the goal much like looking cool/heavy/groovy was in the 60's. A diary for an XTC roadie in the early days has quotes like "Great show. Colin looked very aggressive", etc. It was mostly image and they knew it. In London the whole thing got very codified. When the Stranglers started out they were criticized because they were older, took acid and used synthesizers. Speed was in, downers were out. Every spiteful mention of Pink Floyd included a sneer at downers. How could these old hippies make society better if they were crawling into their headphones, etc. But the Stranglers had the last laugh because eventually acid came in and so did synthesizers in a big way. Ironically, Roxy Music became the godfathers after all. (Imo, the synth pop movement killed the whole thing in '82.) Oh and everyone got older. Surprise! So, a lot of this posturing was very superficial surface noise that looked hip in the clubs. What was not superficial was the hatred of prog in some quarters. Look how often they mentioned the dreaded Polytech student who blighted the earth with his introspection. How dare they be introspective? It's true that a lot of prog bands lived on the British college circuit in the early 70's thanks to the network of social directors at the time. But that just made it the underground alternative of its day. If college students wanted to listen to stoned out, introspective and, at times, quite beautiful music, then I don't see that as any more illegitimate than the formula the punks lived by in London which went like this: 1)stay on the dole. 2)spend the money to look outrageous so that 3) you're guaranteed not to get hired because you had to prove you applied for a job if you wanted to 4) stay on the dole. That's a looooong way from CBGB's, folks. But, again, this London social club-going process turned out some fantastic music at the time. And there was plenty of rebellion within the ranks against the strict Sex Pistols view of the world. Don't forget, The Police were in those clubs. And I'll put The Jam's Sound Affects in my all time top 10 list of lp's of any genre, anytime.

[BradH]

There's something about the violence that took place that I mentioned to Jay in an e-mail years ago but I've never seen it mentioned here. When those London bands started touring places like Manchester, Birmingham or Newcastle, they found the violence there was worse than London. They were shocked that this was happening and were basically told by the local punks, "See, we're radical, too." Those punks were acting out what they had seen on the news reports and the results were even worse than London. It was a "me too" copycat phenomenon. While this was going on, there were musicians quoted in the press saying this could never happen in L.A. (Jackson Browne comes to mind). But by 1981 it was worse in L.A. than it had been anywhere. In retrospect, that shouldn't have surprised anyone because L.A. is a town where image can become reality fairly rapidly.

[Troy]

I wasn't gonna post in this thread because I just don't give a damn about Patti Smith. But I just can't control myself.

J, I never said she didn't have influence on other artists. (tho I think Talking Heads, Beck or REM are a REAL stretch, but I don't wish to belabor the point).

The BFD is in reference to my opinion that the artists she influenced were small potatoes. I think most Lillith faire artists were inspired by Baez, Joni Mitchell and even Stevie Nicks as much as Patti.

I see punk as more of an attitude than a specific musical type. Again, maybe it's a CA thing, but punk was WAY ugly out here.

I'll be the first to admit that much of Zappa, XTC, Wall Of Voodoo, and prog (ohh, LOTS of prog) is teenage music. Rock music is music for kids. The best rock music is made by people under the age of 25 or 30. It's a youth culture item. That's why most people our age don't pay much attention to music. I'll be the first to admit my own arrested development . . . will you? It's the kiss of death and a slide down the slippery slope into pretension if you take rock too seriously.

Dusty, Bill Nelson was not punk. He was a glam/progrock holdover from the early 70s who made some genre defining new wave albums in the late 70s and then drifted into ambient music thru the 80s.

[3-LockBox]

The Village People may have advanced gay disco music, but it already existed and their impact was felt through singles, not albums--and to this day it's pretty clear that a lot of people don't even get that their songs are gay anthems.

Wait...the Village People were gay?

BTW: your statement is the same argument I made that you're now refuting, i.e. the music already existed. Joni Mitchell? Sure, I get how she 'changed music' as far as women being given credence as serious rock artists (writer/performer) are concerned. But as far as women of serious RnR substance; I can think of Grace Slick, Janis Joplin, and Stevie Nicks (but of course I know Nicks can't count cuz she made too damn much money). But speaking of Nicks, do you think she needed Patti Smith to exist in order to branch out as a solo artist? I think Nicks woulda happened as a solo artist on her own. The Pretenders woulda happened on their own, but maybe they woulda sounded different.


meh... A term of indifference. Smith definately had a major influence on some artists. But I don't agree that she changed music.

"their impact was felt through singles-not albums"
I thought we came to the conclusion weeks ago that it didn't matter whether we're talking albums or records anyway. Besides, isn't it redundant to say 'gay disco'?

[BradH]

I see punk as more of an attitude than a specific musical type. Again, maybe it's a CA thing, but punk was WAY ugly out here.

So what? It was third gen by the time it hit L.A. Why does that have to define punk? Did you honestly think that's what was happening at CBGB's? More importantly, does it sound that way to you?

I'll be the first to admit that much of Zappa, XTC, Wall Of Voodoo, and prog (ohh, LOTS of prog) is teenage music.

Yeah, I'll give ya Zappa's lyrics but the best rock music has been done for the college age crowd over the decades so there was always a level of seriousness there. All that hip underground cool sh!t is what college age kids wanted to hear no matter what era. That's where the innovation has come from for 40 years. And you can throw XTC, Wall Of Voodoo and prog in that mix, too. That's bullsh!t about it being teenage music, sorry. Maybe in the 50's and early 60's but a pattern developed in the late 60's. These bands hit the college audience in their prime and then eventually work their way down to the high schools where the big money lies. I watched everybody from Zeppelin to R.E.M. do that.

It's the kiss of death and a slide down the slippery slope into pretension if you take rock too seriously.

If it weren't for a certain amount of pretention there wouldn't be any rock 'n' roll. Art may not be real but it doesn't have to be shallow.