Week 23: 50 Albums That Changed Music

[Swish]

The selection this week is one that I've never heard and probably won't seek out based on the description of the music and the artists that it supposedly influenced. Augustus Pablo - King Tubby Meets Rockers Uptown (1976)

Jamaica's invention of dub - a stripped-down, echo- laden instrumental remix of a vocal track - was spawned principally on the B-sides of local reggae hits and in the island's competing sound-systems, with technician-engineer King Tubby as its master creator, a man who could 'play' the mixing console. This collection of etherial melodies by melodica maestro Augustus Pablo distilled the art into album form. It would be years before the West caught up. Without this...no DJ remixes, no house, no rave.

Gee, I don't know how I could live without DJ remixes, house, and rave "music". Spare me. That doesn't mean it wasn't influential (are you listening J?), it's just that I won't ever put this stuff on equal footing with true musicians and song-writers. It's a monstrosity dammit!

Swish

[nobody]

Another that shows an english leaning as the DJ culture and subsequent music forms have been much less visable in the US.

I'd also add that dub music and the subsequent toasters talking over the dubs were a precurser and heavy influence on the development of rap music as well. So, we can point here for something that helped kick start a whole mess of music lots of folks can't stand.

Personally, I'm thankful for the development of rap and am so-so on the DJ stuff. But, really, just for its influence on the emergence of dub music itself, I'm more than happy to have this album on the list regardless on influence on the larger sphere of music. Enabling dub to pick up steam and thrive as an album length art form is more than enough to make a case for this album, which is indeed excellent.

[3-LockBox]

I got nothin

[Dusty Chalk]

I got nothin

Ditters.

[Troy]

ZZZzzzZZZzzz . . .

[bobsticks]

Let us speak as men do. Let us recognize that real music incorporates pitch and timbre, and dynamics and, dare I say, some level of compositional integrity. This is another red herring foisted upon the world by some little Starbuck's-permeated hipster-wannabe.

Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, I own scads of old-school rap (T,Cube,PE, Suger Hill Gang,etc.). I've got Orbit and Moby. Hell, I've got almost the entire Wax Trax! catalogue. So I'm not some old codger sitting around with a pipe, but let's get real.

Change music? I'm dubious. I'm not even convinced that this changed "mood music"

[bobsticks]

NIce 1000th post, Swish-baby!

[BradH]

This is another red herring foisted upon the world by some little Starbuck's-permeated hipster-wannabe.

That wasn't the audience in Jamaice. That wasn't the audience in Brooklyn.

Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, I own scads of old-school rap

So, let's see. The dj's in Brooklyn combined Jamaican dub w/ krautrock, it's not music and you listen to it.

Sounds awfully avant-garde to me.

God forbid...

[bobsticks]

There's a big difference between the "fun factor" of ear candy or the sonic happenings of a social scene and true artistic endeavor.

[BradH]

There's a big difference between the "fun factor" of ear candy or the sonic happenings of a social scene and true artistic endeavor.

Not when the Beatles did it.

Why is hip-hop not a true artistic endeavor?

[SlumpBuster]

So I'm not some old codger sitting around with a pipe, but let's get real.

Really? Because...

I suppose there is some artistry in modern hip-hop--if one considers a breadth of knowledge of other people's work, the skill to manipulate that into something conforming to legal standards, and the ability to intertwine it with the requisite themes of mysogeny and victimization artistry. I fail to see how a computer programmer composing three minute ditties can be compared with concentrated efforts by masters in the realms of jazz and classical.

codger is as codger does.

And a statement like "requisite themes of mysogeny and victimization artistry" makes me doubt that you have "scads" of rap record, but rather suggests a gross misunderstanding of hiphop. It's like suggesting that all metal is about Satan, or all country is about cheating dogs, or all jazz is masturbatory noodling, or all opera is about vikings.

I will admit that hip-hop is a crazy frustrating genre. It's a hot and cold, hit and miss genre. They need to outlaw skits and guest appearances by everyone's cousin. But, if you fail to see the artistry in Sugar Hill Gang's "Rappers Delight", or Paul's Boutique's "Sounds of Science" or Chamillionaire's "Ridin' Dirty," then no one is ever going to convince you otherwise. Whether its high art or low art is irrelevant if the audience is not even looking.

[Troy]

And a statement like "requisite themes of mysogeny and victimization artistry" makes me doubt that you have "scads" of rap records.

Because he used the word "scads?"

[nobody]

I'll toss out a few comments on a couple of the many topics brought up on this one...

The "rap's not music" thing is ridiculous on a board that's primarily rock based and in regard to a list that is basically rock/pop based. The arguments are no different than those who said rock was not music because it wasn't jazz or jazz was not music because it wasn't classical. You just define music by describing your favorite type and make a circular argument that anything not your favorite is not music. It's an easy ploy that's been used forever. But, c’mon the bottom line is people listen to it for pleasure, dance to it, drink to it, etc… It serves the same function that music always has in our culture. It’s music. If you don’t like it, fine. But, your personally not liking something does not mean it was music. If you want high art...go listen to a symphony. But, taking part in this thread and on this board pretty much says that for everyone except Pat D., you're not taking the high art road anyway.

Oh…and method of construction does not speak to the quality of the finished product in my opinion. But, this is an old process vs. product artistic argument. Personally, especially as time erodes the nature of creation and you are left with the product in the end, I feel you have to judge what has been created, not the method of creation. And, while the Beatles may not have used samples, they used enough studio trickery that they reached a point where they couldn’t even play their music live anymore. At that point are they creating music or are they just playing hi-fi tricks? An argument could be made either way, but I’ll stick with music for the same reason I just laid out.

As to how can it be influential if it didn't cross the Atlantic? If did. Jamaica to UK...a little thing called the Atlantic's in there ya know. Now, if the argument is that to be influential it has to be big in the US...that's a bit ethnocentric for my tastes. Besides, most of the albums mentioned in this or any other list are mostly influential within their genre. So, the judgment then becomes how influential to Jamaican dub was this record and considering until it was put out, you mostly had B-sides and singles and no full albums of dub, you'd have to say it was hugely influential. That dub then went on to influence a whole spectrum of other genres only adds to the record's significance.

[audiobill]

Never heard of it, but I'm always willing to give a "New-to-Me" listen.

Thanks Swish for the thread.

Man -- you've stuck with this thread throught tick and tin.

I'm finding that the higher the # on your list -- the more intriguing the read/listen.

Cheers,

Bill

[SlumpBuster]

Yeah, this might sound dumb, especially in light of the signature I've got below, but this record ain't that influential. Even I find it a bit too droning. Yeah I've got an old bootleg cassette of this that I copied in college. I still listen to it, especially while cleaning the house.

But doesn't, or at least shouldn't, the definition of "influential" include having crossed the Atlantic ocean? This record may be influential in Britain, but not in the States. Try telling the kids that rocked the basement house parties circa 1979 in the Five Burroughs that there would be no DJ culture without dub. That's just dumb.

[nobody]

Oh...and those kids rockin' the house parties were well aware of Jamaican DJ culture. DJ Kool Herc, the original godfather of hip hop, was Jamaican.

[-Jar-]

I suppose I, being one of the boards biggest fan's of dub should chime in here. I have this cd, among about 20 to 30 other dub classics, and in my preference, it probably would not rank in the top 5. It's decent, for sure, and it was influential, sure. But there were others that followed who took the idea of dub to higher levels, in my opinion. KING TUBBY's is a fun record, no doubt. It has scads of Jamaican charm and spirit. But a mind-blowing dub freakout, it isn't, especially compared to records that came later by Lee Perry, Scientist, Aswad, Sly & Robbie, and the whole On-U-Sound gang, Dub Syndicate, Creation Rebel and Adrian Sherwood.

But to add one other item...

One band that has not been mentioned in this discussion (unless I missed it), is the Clash. LONDON CALLING tops almost every list of influential and great rock records. Just about all their records are considered classic. Without Jamaican Reggae and Dub, there WOULD HAVE BEEN NO LONDON CALLING (at least, not in the form that we know it, I'm sure it would have been a lot less interesting).


So, in my view, this record belongs on that list, as it represents ALL great dub records, and well, to me, dub is at least 1/50th of the story of modern rock music, if for nothing more than it's influence on The Clash (and other punk bands from Bad Brains to Stiff Little Fingers), as well as electronica, techno, hip-hop, trip-hop, jungle, IDM and other musics that millions of people all over the world enjoy today..

There.

-jar

[nobody]

I tend to agree with you that dub records evolved into something grander. But, sometimes one of the old style ones just sounds right to me...althogh I'll usually grab King Tubby over Agustus Pablo myself.

And my favorite Clash dub influenced stuff is side 2 of the 10" version of Black Market Clash...which was partially gutted from Super Black Market Clash, which is why the latter sucks.

[-Jar-]

I tend to agree with you that dub records evolved into something grander. But, sometimes one of the old style ones just sounds right to me...althogh I'll usually grab King Tubby over Agustus Pablo myself.

And my favorite Clash dub influenced stuff is side 2 of the 10" version of Black Market Clash...which was partially gutted from Super Black Market Clash, which is why the latter sucks.

yes.. I was thrilled when SUPER BLACK MARKET CLASH came out, then I was pissed when I got it home and realized the versions were different...

so I went on eBay and found a copy of the original 10" - had to have my Robber Dub.

-jar