Week 23: 50 Albums That Changed Music

[bobsticks]

There's a big difference between the "fun factor" of ear candy or the sonic happenings of a social scene and true artistic endeavor.

[BradH]

There's a big difference between the "fun factor" of ear candy or the sonic happenings of a social scene and true artistic endeavor.

Not when the Beatles did it.

Why is hip-hop not a true artistic endeavor?

[bobsticks]

Not when the Beatles did it.

Why is hip-hop not a true artistic endeavor?

Well, when the Beatles did it they started from nothing and worked toward a creative vision using musical instruments. I don't recall the Beatles using sampled loops of anyone elses compositions, but I'm not that familiar with all their work. Further, I don't really view rock/pop music as they apex of artistic expression either.

While certainly less original than krautrock, I suppose there is some artistry in modern hip-hop--if one considers a breadth of knowledge of other people's work, the skill to manipulate that into something conforming to legal standards, and the ability to intertwine it with the requisite themes of mysogeny and victimization artistry. I fail to see how a computer programmer composing three minute ditties can be compared with concentrated efforts by masters in the realms of jazz and classical. Nor do I feel the need to do any "multi-culturalism" handholding so everyone can feel good about their chosen form of expression.

"Valid" is a binary state, so if I admit that even one work is acceptable then I concede the point of the potential validity of the "art form". I do concede as there is some good stuff. Most, not so much. But, valid is a far cry from "good" and not mutually exclusive to "influential". Farther still is it from "higher art".

To make an analogy, hip-hop is the rice cakes of music. Yes, rice cakes can be filling and can even taste good with the proper accoutrements, but in the end they are largely empty calories. A diet of nothing but rice cakes would be devoid of any real nutrition and the body and mind would quickly turn to mush. Good for a snack but no substitute for three squares to be sure. Certainly not haute cuisine.

By now, Brad, you and I are way off topic--debating entire genres. Let it suffice to say I think it a blow to the already tenuous credibility of the list that this is in the "Top 50 Influential Albums of All-Time".

[bobsticks]

By the way, thanks for using the term avant-garde...most just say "Full of sh!t "...

[BradH]

By now, Brad, you and I are way off topic--debating entire genres.

Well, then what is the topic? In your first post you said the Guardian's pick didn't influence music because this album wasn't "real music" and, by implication, neither were "T,Cube,PE, Suger Hill Gang,etc" even though they're in your collection. That's a helluva lot more sweeping than debating the Guardian's confusion over whether dub or dj culture came first.