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  1. #1
    Rocket Surgeon Swish's Avatar
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    More of Howard Stern busting Led Zeppelin.

    I know that Rich From Texas won't like this since he was a big fan and all, but I just have to get this out of my system. Many of you already know that Led Zep ripped off many of their best songs from other artists, but this segment on Howard Stern, with the world's foremost 'classic rock expert', has a lot more information that you may find interesting. For instance, while they never gave the proper credit to the original artists, they did so on recently released 'greatest hits' cds.

    Anyway, I'm not saying they were a crappy band or anything, just that they really cheated everyone by ripping off others and representing it as their original music. It's fraud no matter how you slice it. If you would like to hear the clip, go here and scroll down about 6 lines to the highlighted "Click this to listen..." line.

    G Swish
    I call my bathroom Jim instead of John so I can tell people that I go to the Jim first thing every morning.

    If you say the word 'gullible' very slowly it sounds just like oranges.

  2. #2
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Jimmy Page ruled at the time. You could keep the rest of them IMO.
    Some great music from "The Song Remains the Same."
    They copied? Shame on them. Still liked the music though.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  3. #3
    Rocket Surgeon Swish's Avatar
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    You liked 'their music'?

    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Jimmy Page ruled at the time. You could keep the rest of them IMO.
    Some great music from "The Song Remains the Same."
    They copied? Shame on them. Still liked the music though.
    It would be more appropriate to say "I liked the way they played the music of others'. In other words, they were either a very good cover band or good at rearranging the songs of others. Yes, they did have some original music, but too many songs were blatant copies.

    Swish
    I call my bathroom Jim instead of John so I can tell people that I go to the Jim first thing every morning.

    If you say the word 'gullible' very slowly it sounds just like oranges.

  4. #4
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swish
    It would be more appropriate to say "I liked the way they played the music of others'. In other words, they were either a very good cover band or good at rearranging the songs of others. Yes, they did have some original music, but too many songs were blatant copies.

    Swish
    OK, I think they did a great job of taking someone else's music and turning it into something I like listening to.
    Do all artists write their own stuff?

    I still like "The Song Remains the Same."
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  5. #5
    Rocket Surgeon Swish's Avatar
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    You know the vast majority either write their own songs..

    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    OK, I think they did a great job of taking someone else's music and turning it into something I like listening to.
    Do all artists write their own stuff?

    I still like "The Song Remains the Same."
    ...or give credit to whoever does, but LZ didn't do that, so shame on them. Again, the issue isn't whether or not you like the band or the songs they recorded, but that they ripped off other artists and didn't give them credit. They lost numerous lawsuits over it in recent years, so it's not some big secret, although I don't see Rolling Stone a.k.a Teen Beat covering the story in their rag of a mag.

    Swish
    I call my bathroom Jim instead of John so I can tell people that I go to the Jim first thing every morning.

    If you say the word 'gullible' very slowly it sounds just like oranges.

  6. #6
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swish
    ...or give credit to whoever does, but LZ didn't do that, so shame on them. Again, the issue isn't whether or not you like the band or the songs they recorded, but that they ripped off other artists and didn't give them credit. They lost numerous lawsuits over it in recent years, so it's not some big secret, although I don't see Rolling Stone a.k.a Teen Beat covering the story in their rag of a mag.

    Swish
    Sorry, didn't mean to rain on your thread.

    I do think that what they did sucked. People should be honest.

    Will "Fast Times at Ridgemont High " have to change their credits too?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  7. #7
    Forum Regular BradH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swish
    It's fraud no matter how you slice it.
    This issue is blown so out of proportion it's just tired at this point. Yeah, they should have given credit where it was due but that credit is not nearly as large as Zep's detractors like to think (if "think" and "Howard Stern" can be used together). Creatively, if anyone got ripped off it was The Yardbirds more than Howlin' Wolf or Robert Johnson. Zep's approach to the blues comes straight out of the Beck & Page eras of the Yardbirds. Besides, the old blues artists lifted sh!t wholesale.

    Zep were not innocent saints by any means but they were damn sure not frauds or a cover band.

  8. #8
    Close 'n PlayŽ user Troy's Avatar
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    I remember reading about this 20 years ago in that "Hammer of the Gods" book.

    IIRC, basically, Robert Johnson didn't write that stuff either. It was all based on spirituals and slave songs, right? All LZ did was make these heavy and loud arrangements of them utilizing new instrument and recording tech to make the stoner kids go crazy.

    If there should have been royalties paid, I have no idea who shoulda got 'em.

  9. #9
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    Gee G Swish. And I even thanked you for posting that link to Wolfgang's Vault. This is how you thank me? Do you know that Donovan McNabb has the power to lock anyone he chooses out of the stadium, and I have his phone number?

    Looks like I've got a lot of typing to do tonite but right now I'm hungry.

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    I wasn't able to find the thread where someone included a link to the Wikipedia explanantion of Led Zeppelin, but here it is anyway:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Led_zeppelin

    This time, read the whole enchilada and and not just what a few "critics" from Rolling Stone, and a book writer trying to make a name for himself had to say, then realize that in the 70's, "stoners" like me listened to them for the loud, driving beat, the fact that they were played all over FM radio, including MMR, YSP, Q-102 in Philly, and concert after concert for a decade where they played to sold out shows everywhere they went.

    I don't know how old you are Swish... were you even alive in the 70's? Do you know anything about the culture of the time? I remember quite well what was going on back then, and the politics of music was absolutely nowhere in my, or anyone else I hung around withs mind.

    I have nothing but great, stirring memories of the times when I absorbed myself in their music. Willie Dixon? Bert Jansch? Jake Holmes? Who the f**k were they? Who cared back in the 70's? Not me. You on the other hand seem to have some baggage you're carrying around that you need to keep bringing up here. You base your beliefs and opinions on what Howard Stern says, what John Mendelshon says, what Denny Somack... a DJ says, and what the writer of Teen Spirit, whoever he is (BTW, isn't Teen Spirit part of a title from a song Curt Cobain wrote?) says? All a$$holes trying to make a name for themselves IMO. Is Howard Stern the God you worship?

    Tell me G Swish, who makes the important decisions in your household? Your wife or your kids?

  11. #11
    Forum Regular MindGoneHaywire's Avatar
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    Who the f*ck was Willie Dixon?

    And you're asking others if they were alive in the 70s, as if being old enough to have lived through that decade means that much to this discussion?

    You've got to be kidding.

    Tell you what, do some research on Willie Dixon & then come back & admit that you had some learning to do yrself.

    Brad, I disagree on this being blown out of proportion: it was never all that well-publicized outside of the small circle of people who actually care about such things. Like Swish (who is older than I am, and I remember the 70s, thank you), I listen to Howard Stern also, and if you haven't heard the clip in question, then you can't deny he makes a compelling case. It ties together a lot of the more disturbing aspects of what was touched on in Hammer Of The Gods.

    If only they'd at least added the names of the blues guys, or Spirit or whoever, as partial collaborators, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. That they did, was disgusting and illegal. I won't go so far as to call them a cover band, because I do think they did some great things, even if I'll be fine with never hearing any of them ever again. But that's part of why it's so strange that they would've done this--they were that good, and they didn't need to cut anyone out of credit for tunes they arguably IMPROVED.

    I don't like others.

  12. #12
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    I'm not saying what Zepplin did was right but they sure weren't the only band that done it. What is that old saying, something about immitation is the best form of flattery. Did they cover a song or just expand on an influence? It is ironic though that when this band in the 80's came out called Kingdom Come, who sounded a lot like Zepplin, was getting some recognition for one of their songs and Robert Plant was going around accusing them of ripping it off from Cashmere. So I guess what comes around does go around.

    I do think the issue is exaggerated. There isn't a single artist who didn't borrow something from another artist at one time or another. Did every Thrash band give credit to Dave Mustaine and his once partner from Metallica for developing that style of guitar? I remember him being quite upset with the late Mr. Dimebag over Pantera's success using his style of guitar. Or, Ray Charles who basically got started boogginizing gospel songs. And man, look at the crap when sampling began...... It just seems like something becomes an issue when it is in another persons best interest to make it one. I mean Zepplin's first album came out in 1969, did it take all these years before some one finally realized what they sound like? Did we all the sudden find these Blues albums in a vault or time capsule and the light bulb turned on? Should we gather our Zepplin collections and burn them on a baseball field? Well, you sure the .... ain't gettin' mine. It says in the first amendment I can bare arms and rock my ... off to Led Zepplin!

    A friend of mine who is like an expert in oldies burned me some discs of people I never heard of before and I was amazed at how many of those songs I recognized but were made popular by later artists. I have no idea if they were given credit, this is just a side note.

  13. #13
    Forum Regular BradH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindGoneHaywire
    But that's part of why it's so strange that they would've done this--they were that good, and they didn't need to cut anyone out of credit for tunes they arguably IMPROVED.
    Exactly, it's just weird more than anything. What the hell did they hope to gain? It's not like they were trying to hide their blues roots or anything. It's a weird issue. Cream went the complete opposite way so we get their version of "Crossroads" credited to Robert Johnson. That might make everyone feel better and might be more legal but, artistically, that's as bizarre as Zep giving no credit whatsover. My main point is this: if Zep had properly credited Willie Dixon, Howlin' Wolf and Robert Johnson, I suspect nobody would be calling them a cover band in 2007, they'd be praised for their radical interpretation. Yet, it would be the same damn records! Here's another thing: Zep was still considered dino rawk by the critics until the hip-hop dj's started sampling Bonzo off "When The Levee Breaks". Think about that. Within the history of the blues you could throw a rock anywhere and hit a song about levees. How many of those tracks got sampled? It was Zep's sound and style that inspired the dj's, not the blues itself. That matters because the way you play or interpret a song determines whether you're really original or just a cover band.
    Last edited by BradH; 07-04-2007 at 02:13 AM.

  14. #14
    Forum Regular BradH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    Willie Dixon? Bert Jansch? Jake Holmes? Who the f**k were they? Who cared back in the 70's?
    Well, obviously Led Zeppelin did.

  15. #15
    Rocket Surgeon Swish's Avatar
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    My wife makes all the important decision. Just like...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    I wasn't able to find the thread where someone included a link to the Wikipedia explanantion of Led Zeppelin, but here it is anyway:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Led_zeppelin

    This time, read the whole enchilada and and not just what a few "critics" from Rolling Stone, and a book writer trying to make a name for himself had to say, then realize that in the 70's, "stoners" like me listened to them for the loud, driving beat, the fact that they were played all over FM radio, including MMR, YSP, Q-102 in Philly, and concert after concert for a decade where they played to sold out shows everywhere they went.

    I don't know how old you are Swish... were you even alive in the 70's? Do you know anything about the culture of the time? I remember quite well what was going on back then, and the politics of music was absolutely nowhere in my, or anyone else I hung around withs mind.

    I have nothing but great, stirring memories of the times when I absorbed myself in their music. Willie Dixon? Bert Jansch? Jake Holmes? Who the f**k were they? Who cared back in the 70's? Not me. You on the other hand seem to have some baggage you're carrying around that you need to keep bringing up here. You base your beliefs and opinions on what Howard Stern says, what John Mendelshon says, what Denny Somack... a DJ says, and what the writer of Teen Spirit, whoever he is (BTW, isn't Teen Spirit part of a title from a song Curt Cobain wrote?) says? All a$$holes trying to make a name for themselves IMO. Is Howard Stern the God you worship?

    Tell me G Swish, who makes the important decisions in your household? Your wife or your kids?
    ...every other household in America. But seriously, I don't worship Howard. In fact, as a rock-solid conservative, I'm opposed to many of his political views, although I do find the show funny at times.

    I also liked LZ when I was a lad, like most of my friends, and I was in my teens in the 70s, so I certainly remember that decade well.... sort of. And like J, I couldn't care less if I never heard them again. There's just plenty of new music that I enjoy to listen to 'classic rock' any longer. Not that it all sucks or anything, I just grew quite weary of it.

    I brought up this LZ topic because I thought many on this board would be interested (I was correct) and if anyone doesn't like it, well, what can I say? Express your thoughts on it (you did) and we can debate them. I stand on my position that it was a blatant ripoff that was rightfully exposed, albeit many years too late. I really take pleasure in the fact that they are now giving credit to the original song-writers on their 'greatest hits' records. Can you spell redemption?


    G Swish
    I call my bathroom Jim instead of John so I can tell people that I go to the Jim first thing every morning.

    If you say the word 'gullible' very slowly it sounds just like oranges.

  16. #16
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    Swish, you make a good point about posting. Who knows what others here will be interested in and like it or not, but let's not be afraid to throw a new thread on, that's what keeps us going. Actually this LZ thing would have gone unnoticed by me if it wasn't for the thread.

    And, if you are a conservative, for gawd sakes put your foot down and tell your wife who wears the pants around there You are an embarrassment.

  17. #17
    Rocket Surgeon Swish's Avatar
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    I know full well who wears the pants in my house!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Swish, you make a good point about posting. Who knows what others here will be interested in and like it or not, but let's not be afraid to throw a new thread on, that's what keeps us going. Actually this LZ thing would have gone unnoticed by me if it wasn't for the thread.

    And, if you are a conservative, for gawd sakes put your foot down and tell your wife who wears the pants around there You are an embarrassment.
    It's Cathy. Once I learned that, it was smooth sailing ever since.

    Hey, I'm not afraid to post my views, no matter how ridiculous they may be. I was one of the early 'prog bashers', or more appropriately, I jumped on the anti-prog bandwagon many moons ago, and it was fun. I'm sure you know we have a large contingent of prog fanatics on RR, but we also have a large number who don't care for prog, and rightfully so, and it makes things more interesting at times, just like this LZ bashing has done. It's been quite some time since J and Brad H have posted a lengthy diatribe, and I always relish reading them, and if a post draws some ire from a few people, all the better in my opinion. We can't all be patting each other on the back and agreeing with everything or this board would never last.

    G Swish
    I call my bathroom Jim instead of John so I can tell people that I go to the Jim first thing every morning.

    If you say the word 'gullible' very slowly it sounds just like oranges.

  18. #18
    Forum Regular audiobill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swish
    We can't all be patting each other on the back and agreeing with everything or this board would never last.

    G Swish

    Here, here!! Nice retort Swishman (pat, pat!!) I do enjoy clashes like these. It's what makes reading and posting interesting.

    Now, please excuse me, as I have some Led Zeppelin BBC sessions to listen to.

    Great thread,

    Bill

  19. #19
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swish
    We can't all be patting each other on the back and agreeing with everything or this board would never last.

    G Swish
    Yep! Right you are. I've never been a LZ fan and I couldn't care less what they did or didn't do. By the time I was old enough to take notice of them, I was so sick of hearing Stairway to Heaven and Cashmere, that I had no interest in hearing anything else by them. Probably my loss in the long run. But I have found this discussion quite fascinating and I will listen to the Howard Stern thing (I haven't had a chance yet).

    I miss the old days of actual discussions and disagreements on this board. It's what made the place tick. And I learned a lot from those exchanges. Thanks for trying to bring some of that old passion back. We need more of it.

    Just keep throwing new threads at the wall...you never know which one will stick.

  20. #20
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    I'm not a huge LZ fan, nor did I grow up in the 70's. But I do read a lot about music history, I do study and continue to listen to a lot of music to have an equally worthless opinion.

    I think LZ did a bit more than just creatively interpret from other artists. But I'm not so sure what they did was terribly abnormal at the time. A lot of what I've read suggest this was the nature of the business, especially 35-40 years ago. Bob Dylan's been borrowing a lot, and not always giving credit, too. He's still revered as one of the best song-writers ever.

    I agree, if they credited their, uhh inspirations, this would be non-issue, instead of a very minor one that only people with no vested interest in the alleged crime seem to care about.

    But they didn't. As to why? From what I've read LZ was as much about the image and mystique, mystery, and total aversion to any form of communication with the media and public. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a conscious decision to not give due credit in order to preserve the "legend".

    Whatever the reason, it's too bad. But at the same time, I don't think it diminishes the talent the band had. I probably don't agree with a lot of moral decisions a great many of my favorite musicians make. But to me, the songs, the music are entities themselves, separate from the people that play/write them. For example, whatever the case may be, Billy Jean is a kick-ass tune and nothing MJ could ever do will diminish that. Same goes for LZ. We could discover 100 more ugly truths about the band, but their music (and it is "theirs", I don't see many other cover/rip-off bands achieving even 0.01% of the success) will endure.

  21. #21
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    FA!..... you aren't a LZ fan?! I've been in love with you for so long and now this comes out. I had you on a pedestal as my perfect soul/R&R mate. Well.... I will just visit my imagination and put a spin on this as to maintain my fantasy. This little bump will just make our relationship stronger, right?

  22. #22
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    FA!..... you aren't a LZ fan?! I've been in love with you for so long and now this comes out. I had you on a pedestal as my perfect soul/R&R mate. Well.... I will just visit my imagination and put a spin on this as to maintain my fantasy. This little bump will just make our relationship stronger, right?
    It's not that I don't like LZ. It's just that all I've ever really heard is the stuff that gets played over and over and over again on the local classic rock station. I'm just so sick of those songs, that I have no desire to delve deeper.

    If it helps any, I always thought (and still do) that Robert Plant is sexy. And...well...since in my imagination you look just like him...

  23. #23
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    Funny thing is, I'm listening to Willie Dixon right now (I Am The Blues is a long time favorite of mine where he takes the vocals on his own songs), and I really don't like Led Zepplin much at all.

    Yet, I think while they stole the notes, they played those notes so differently than the old blues men that they did indeed make a significant musical contribution to the end product. Those may be the same songs, but they sure as **** sound different. Just amping it all up and giving the blues that metallic crunch changes the whole vibe considerably.

    I pretty much wish they had left well enough alone. But, if you like their sound, I do believe they brought a lot to the table themselves in creating it.

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    Yeah, LZ does get regular rotation on most Rock stations. There are a few good songs that don't seem to be as favored though, No Quarter comes to mind, one of my LZ favorites. I like the majority of Robert Plants solo work, especially his first couple albums. His cover of Darkness Darkness is very good. The album Plant and Page did called No Quarter is good. They took several of LZ's standards and rearranged them adding some Middle Eastern musicians as spice. It's hard to imagine anyone who collects music not having at least a couple LZ albums.

  25. #25
    Forum Regular BradH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    From what I've read LZ was as much about the image and mystique, mystery, and total aversion to any form of communication with the media and public. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a conscious decision to not give due credit in order to preserve the "legend".
    That was a result of being trashed mercilessly in the British press from day one (and plagiarism wasn't the issue). They retaliated by not doing many interviews until Lisa Robinson of Hit Parader went on the road and blowjobbed her way to the inner circle in '75. They were more open to the press after the Physical Graffiti era. A lot of bands in the early 70's had a mystique about them because of the nature of the media at the time. Same with movies. I remember it well and I'm sure a few other old farts on the board remember it too. There was no internet giving the latest coverage on the minutia of backstage shenanigans and arrest charges. No MTV documentary on the making of anything. No concert videos to rent. FM still had an underground feel. Led Zep wasn't a household name even at the precise moment they were outselling the Stones on the road. This is why people like Yes or Pink Floyd or Jethro Tull were considered avant garde, new, mysterious and underground even if they were on a major label. Try telling that to a punk rocker. But that's what happened and it worked because the music biz just wasn't that big. By the late 70's, FM radio was cramming Zeppelin down everyone's throat 'till their nose bled. But my take on their sound stems from when I first heard it, starting in 1970. So yeah, I'm biased. I can play every freaking song they did on the drums without thinking and quite a few I've bothered to learn on the bass. It's a blast to play and I literally can't remember the last time I just sat and listened. For me, there's no point in that anymore. And you know what? I wouldn't walk across the street to talk to the sorry b@stards unless it was John Paul Jones. So I'm not impressed with the idea that suddenly in 2007 we should all be shocked, shocked, that Led Zeppelin often acted like a bunch of thugs.

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