March Music Madness: Nirvana vs. Joy Division

[newtrix1]

Please vote on your more favorite artist between Nirvana and Joy Division.

OK, let’s give this thing a shot. Again, rules are simple, just vote for your favorite artist. If a tiebreaker is neccessary, it will be determined by the best justification of why you selected your pick (of course you can just vote without typing a message too). Have fun!

[newtrix1]

Please vote on your more favorite artist between Nirvana and Joy Division.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I don't own any JD albums , but I may have to remedy that situation based on the recent thread. I guess my post won't be the tiebreaker eh?

[ForeverAutumn]

I'm embarrassed to admit that I don't own any JD albums , but I may have to remedy that situation based on the recent thread. I guess my post won't be the tiebreaker eh?

I went with Nirvana for the same reason. But if anyone would like to enlighten me on Joy Division, I could change my mind.

[newtrix1]

I went with Nirvana for the same reason. But if anyone would like to enlighten me on Joy Division, I could change my mind.

DEEPDISCOUNTCD.com? They have several J D albums at <$10 (includes shipping). I just ordered one today.

[DariusNYC]

I think Joy Division is a great band and a quite important one. And I think Nirvana is a great band and a quite important one. But I approve of the idea of Nirvana more. They were poppier and punkier at the same time. They seared themselves into the popular consciousness. They were dangerous and pissed parents off in such a big way.

(Personally, I've spent a lot more time listening to New Order than Joy Division, and for most purposes I like NO better.)

[Davey]

For a while in the early 90s I probably woulda gone with Nirvana because I really only knew the one JD album Closer and I knew 3 or 4 Nirvana albums. But now I have both JD albums and way more of the albums I listen to and love have roots in JD, either directly or indirectly. And that was such a fruitful period for rock music (as was the early 90s, but there was just so much more diversity in that post punk/new wave period). I haven't pulled out a Nirvana album for a few years now except maybe one or two listens to the MTV one.

[Jim Clark]

Silly me, I didn't even see how this could be a contest. Just goes to show how little I know.

jc

[ForeverAutumn]

DEEPDISCOUNTCD.com? They have several J D albums at <$10 (includes shipping). I just ordered one today.

I can order from there but they'll charge me $4.95 US for shipping. And I run the risk of have to pay CDN taxes and duty when the package crosses the border.

But I see that JD disks are fairly inexpensive on Amazon.ca. So, if I were gonna order one (and I'm not saying that I am) which one should I start with?

[mad rhetorik]

I love 'em both... but there's no way in hell that I can let Nirvana win this one.

Joy Division were extremely groundbreaking. Nobody really sounded like them during their heyday. They produced two classic albums, one awesome singles/B-sides comp, and a series of amazing live performances. Ian Curtis is one of my favorite vocalists, Peter Hook one of my fave bassists. They pretty much defined the post-punk genre.

Nirvana were great, no question. Kurt was a great songwriter, Dave Grohl a fine drummer, and they were the first Gen-X disaffected punk outfit to really break big; but they never put together one absolutely perfect album like Joy Division did (they came close with In Utero however).

[newtrix1]

You're asking the wrong guy, remember I don't have any of their albums yet. I know many here will frown upon this, but today I ordered the best of cd (because I wanted to hear that song "Love will Tear us Apart" as well as stuff from their 2 other 5 star albums. If you want to pick up one studio release I believe "Closer" is the one that gets most raves, but maybe someone else will chime in with more educated advice.

[mad rhetorik]

You're asking the wrong guy, remember I don't have any of their albums yet. I know many here will frown upon this, but today I ordered the best of cd (because I wanted to hear that song "Love will Tear us Apart" as well as stuff from their 2 other 5 star albums. If you want to pick up one studio release I believe "Closer" is the one that gets most raves, but maybe someone else will chime in with more educated advice.

Start with Unknown Pleasures.. it's less crushingly bleak than Closer and probably a bit easier to digest, with a few punky uptempo numbers like "Wilderness" and "Disorder" to balance out dirges like "New Dawn Fades" and "Insight."

And it also has "Shadowplay." One of the greatest anthems of all time.

Then you should go buy Closer. Post-haste.

[Davey]

Start with Unknown Pleasures.. it's less crushingly bleak than Closer and probably a bit easier to digest, with a few punky uptempo numbers like "Wilderness" and "Disorder" to balance out dirges like "New Dawn Fades" and "Insight."

And it also has "Shadowplay." One of the greatest anthems of all time.

Then you should go buy Closer. Post-haste.

I don't know. Neither Ricky or Autumn really strike me as good candidates for Joy Division appreciation. But it is good to at least hear what you might be missing. My vote would go to Closer, but if I was just starting out and knew that I'd like them, I'd opt for the box set since it has the only recent and decent mastering. The Permanent set from 1995 is pretty highly compressed and EQ'd so if you're a fan of the modern punchy sound that I find so irritating, it may be just the ticket

The original albums on CD are pretty dynamic but most will probably find them a bit lacking if you're used to a more modern sound. The LPs sounded incredible, at least my US pressing of Closer does, and the UK pressing is probably much better. I also unfortunately bought a later Factory vinyl reissue that I think was pressed in Italy and it sounds awful, but that's another story. Closer has great production. Many people appreciate the compression and EQ that gives the Permanent set a bunch of added bass because the bass player was extraordinary and it punches it up and gets it out front, but I'm more of a purist and want to hear them as they were meant to be heard, not how some modern label flunky thinks I should want to hear them. So if I was looking for a collection, I'd go for Substance. But I don't usually go for collections, so....I think Closer is the better recording and really shows off the bass that would later propel New Order to stardom. Great stuff, but not for everybody.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Silly me, I didn't even see how this could be a contest. Just goes to show how little I know.

jc

I thought the same thing. All this talk has forced me to pull out Closer and revisit what all the fuss is about.

To FA, I would recommend Unknown Pleasures first as it is slightly more accessible, but I'm with Davey; I doubt either you or Rick will have much time for any of their albums. Too relentlessly dark.

[Stone]

Silly me, I didn't even see how this could be a contest. Just goes to show how little I know.

jc

But it really has become a contest. This one's good but I'm really looking forward to the REO Speedwagon/Foreigner matchup.

[Mr MidFi]

This was an easy one for me. JD never really did that much for me. I file them next to The Smiths in the "it's not them, it's me" section.

Anyway, I was glad to break the tie.

[nobody]

This one was a tough call for me. I like both bands and I could make a decent arguement for either of them. In the end, I just thought about which band I actually listen to more, and really it's gotta be Joy Division for me. I occasionally pull out In Utero or the Nirvana Unplugged, but I can go a year without playing any Nirvana. Yet, I can't think of six months going by without at least throwing on the Love Will Tear Us Apart 12" or something at least from Joy Division.

And, while I think Nirvana was a great band that got rock radio going again, their offspring seems to have been fairly limited and mundane, while Joy Division spawned and continues to spawn legions of followers still producing interesting music. Nirvana's the kind of band that makes people think about who influenced them and broadens minds that way it seems, getting alternative and punk bands that came before them more attention than they previously had, while Joy Division is more of a movement starting kind of group that never hit commercial heights, but has slowly but surely continued to provide the spark that keeps burning in every new generation.

OK...the more I talk, the better I feel about my vote.

JOY DIVISION

[newtrix1]

This one's good but I'm really looking forward to the REO Speedwagon/Foreigner matchup.

Maybe I can squeeze them in after Kiss vs. the Bee Gees.

P.S. somebody better break this tie, cause I sure don't want to pick a winner here!

[Dusty Chalk]

Hmmm...two bands where the lead singer killed himself. Other than that, I see no resemblance.

I dug Joy Division, but they're a bit too intense for me, most of the time. Yes, that's right, they're too depressing even for me, Mr. I-listen-to-depressing-music-head.

Besides, Nirvana are just better songwriters. Joy Division sometimes come across as Gregorian Monks with access to a new wave studio, and I could just never fully appreciate that sound.

[kexodusc]

As much as I like Joy Division, I can't vote for them here. And I don't think I've spun a Nirvana CD in two years, I listen to a fair bit of J D though.

In the end, I realize my current contempt for Nirvana has more to do with the overplaying, overmarketing, etc they've experienced, not the music itself. To choose Nirvana I didn't pick so much my "favorite artists" as much as I picked who I was most thankful for. Considering both have rather humble roots, all one has to ask is "What the hell has Joy Division done for music?" As much as it pains me, I think we all have to admit, Nirvana did more with one song than Joy Division's done with their entire catalog. If Joy Division never was, I don't think I'd care much...Don't know that I can honestly say the same thing about Nirvana.

Not a knock on J D though...

[MindGoneHaywire]

On the music alone...I listen to Nirvana more frequently & connect with their stuff more. I think Cobain was a master of pop songs. To compare directly doesn't exactly make sense because, really, there are two different things going on, but I would say Joe Div did what they did nearly as well as Cobain. Ultimately I guess I relate more to Cobain's tunes than JD's. A different shade of bleakness, one that connects more with my r'n'r sensibilities, I guess. And while Ian Curtis was a great stylist as a vocalist, Cobain was one of the best singers ever in the rock genre, in my opinion.

In terms of influence/importance, the bands that came after Nirvana with obvious influence, I'm interested in, oh, none of them, I guess. Well, perhaps the Vines, but that's probably about it. I do like some, or quite a bit, of what JD spawned, though I do think the current crop of retro-postpunk are vastly overrated, for the most part. But the other aspects far overshadow this one for me.

Joe Div were unbelievably innovative, and they were probably the most important band within the scene & genre they were involved in. Nirvana, well, perhaps not as innovative, but easily the most important band in their scene (which I think is valid in spite of anyone who's going to scream "What about Pearl Jam?!?") changed the world with one song. That probably wouldn't mean as much to me if I didn't care for what they did, but on that basis, I don't think there's even a comparison. Moreover, JD becomes New Order, who for me have some fine moments, but overall what they do is not really my cup of tea. The remnants of Nirvana carry on issuing forth stuff that's occasionally pleasing but ultimately empty, at least for me. But it's not a stylistic change involving creative differences as radical as what you mostly hear between most of the JD stuff & NO. That says something, too. Now, for me JD's best tune is Dead Souls, and Cobain had moments I consider to be as strong in terms of what I hear as the strengths of that tune. I listen to a melody wrapping itself around three chords in a song like Heart-Shaped Box, I don't hear anything approaching that in the JD recs I've heard, and while I don't own 'em all, I have heard 'em all. Maybe I missed something along the way, but I never heard something quite that developed in the melody department from them. And ultimately that might be the most important consideration for me.

[unleasHell]

sorry, but the results of this poll remind me why I don't come in here much, i'm too old, and I can't relate to younger music fans.

Nirvana had like four good songs and while they may have influenced 20 other Seattle bands, Joy Divison influenced a GENERATION of bands, it's sorta sad that more people don't know that.. Anyone know that the CURE formed after hearing JD?

Nirvana really broke NO new ground, Joy Divison tore up the rules and rewrote them..

Cobain a great Singer? huh? I must have missed something there, or a great writer, yeah I saw Tean Spirtit tonight and the words are so relavant.. come-on were you all on drugs said Mr Hand? the Pearl Jam Singer sings circles around him..

Ian Curtis sang with a tortured emotion, technically he was not a good singer, but way better than Kurt Ca-boom

Sadder still are the posts from people who have never heard of JD..

ah nevermind...

and on the bright side, did I tell you guys I am doing Model Photography nowadays?

[kexodusc]

Thanks for the eye candy, unleasHell ...but I have to ask...have you been in touch with the current generation?
For better or worse, I still hear a ton of Nirvana knock offs (Seether, etc) and there's no denying WHO had greater influence...JD might have inspired a few groups (all the way to Nine Inch Nails), Nirvana turned an entire culture upside down (and ended the pop/glam-rock reign at the top of the charts). Not only that, let's be realistic...we probably are just entering a period where kids who grew up listening to Nirvana as influences are starting to make music themselves...so it's too early to judge the full extent of Nirvana's impact. Even if they aren't the best group from their era...

As for JD tearing up the rules and rewriting them....Have to disagree again...these two did just as much ground-breaking IMO...Only difference being one is credited with starting a musical revolution.

Man, I wish I had your job