If this came out in 1979, it'd get five stars.

[Davey]

Oh, and by the way, the big cultural and technological change in music beyond rock has already happened. It was called hip hop and it happened with more white and black kids growing up together than ever before, the turntable being turned into an instrument and social forces of upheavel in the inner cities. If you just wanna group it into rock, feel free, but to my ears, it's a very different beast with a totally different lexicon that has changed music forever.

Huh, where did that come from? I think you're in the wrong thread

[nobody]

see Troy's post above, talking about how rock came about...

[Troy]

Wonderful avatar davey, where'dja get it?

Hip hop is simply a derivation of R&B and rock.

Saying the implementation of the TT as an instrument is tantamount to the invention of amplified guitars or the synthesizer or modern recording tech is ridiculous. Apples and oranges.

[Davey]

Wonderful avatar davey, where'dja get it?

http://www.adelaide.indymedia.org.au...0479/index.php

[nobody]

No way. There are major differences. Using turntables and samples is a whole new way to construct music. Guitars were not indigenous to rock 'n' roll. The synthesizer wasn't used by rock exclusively when it was invented. Rock took existing instruments, guitars, and adapted them. Synths were brought out well into rock's run and were incorporated into it as they were many other types of music, like experimental electronic music, new age and others.

If anything turntables are more specific to rap and hip hop than guitars and synths are to rock. Turntables were used soley as a playback machine until rap used them as instruments themselves. Sure, the first uses were rudimentary and merely took R&B grooves and replayed them, but cutting vinyl beyond recogniation and using turntables to create new music was not far behind.

Secondly, singing was always extremely important to R&B, rapping is a totally different animal. You can't honestly compare the vocalizing in let's say Grandmasetr Flash with something from Earth Wind and Fire, can you? Those are two completely different uses of the voice, certainly as large a difference as jazz singing and rock singing. I'd say quite obviously larger.

If you just use "rock" as the catch all term for any popular music, well, yeah, you can just say it's all rock. But, there are very real and substantial leaps in music that were made with the birth of rap.

[Troy]

No way. There are major differences. Using turntables and samples is a whole new way to construct music. Guitars were not indigenous to rock 'n' roll. The synthesizer wasn't used by rock exclusively when it was invented. Rock took existing instruments, guitars, and adapted them. Synths were brought out well into rock's run and were incorporated into it as they were many other types of music, like experimental electronic music, new age and others.

Sure. The invention of this new technology changed ALL music. ALL music changed radically in the 60s because of it. That's my point!

But comparing the synthesizer or amp or 16 track to the TT (as used to make music) for being a reinvention of music itself is a terrible analogy. The synthesizer alone's far reaching uses as you note completely overshadow the use of the TT by one facet of music. As you say, "experimental electronic music" wouldn't exist without the synthesizer. There's just no comparison.

If anything turntables are more specific to rap and hip hop than guitars and synths are to rock.

Yes, and that is why they are inconsequential when compared to synths and amplification and studio recording making quantum leaps in music.

Remember, I didn't say rock music in my original post, I said popular music. This encompasses jazz, newage, show music, etc. ALL music changed with the synthesizer, amp and 16 track. The TT changed R&B.

Secondly, singing was always extremely important to R&B, rapping is a totally different animal. You can't honestly compare the vocalizing in let's say Grandmasetr Flash with something from Earth Wind and Fire, can you? Those are two completely different uses of the voice, certainly as large a difference as jazz singing and rock singing. I'd say quite obviously larger.

It's merely a derivation of the old "call and response" spirituals. Again, it's still JUST singing. It's not a reinvention of, a new way to perceive and design music the way the 3 things I keep mentioning were.

[nobody]

Well, you are lumping basically everything outside the experimental realm and classical into the same broad catagory now, so OK, if you wanna say that, sure we can link things up all over the place. Hell, we could even link jazz to classical for that matter and toss in some african tribal stuff. We could argue that music is music and that type of circular logic is pretty hard to pull apart.

I'd still say you're talking about a host of disperate genres, but I am a fan of music's music and hate getting too tied up in seperating stuff into catagories and don't have time to argue more...maybe tomorrow...

Personally, I see modern music as it has evolved in the US as encompassing three major movements thus far....jazz, rock, and hip hop


I

[Davey]

I know that I said this thread wasn't really meant to be about the Futureheads new album, but since I did say that I had it on order, just thought I'd follow up and say this thing is a blast. They really do sound like early XTC mixed with just a smidgen of Gang of Four and/or Buzzcocks (or substitute your own favorite). I'm surprised at how accurately it can be described. Some of that same sound as on the Hot Hot Heat album we did the big Rave Recs group review on (that was fun ), but I think with a more unified sound. At least on first listen. Not as quirky as XTC, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, because some of the quirk didn't always work for me. The catchy "Carnival Kids" is a standout on first listen, although to be honest, they don't really deviate much from the core sound. Of course, if this kinda punky-pop stuff isn't part of your normal music diet anymore you might wanna approach with caution. Too early to know for sure how I will rate it, but not 5 stars