Favorite musical epics?

[Troy]

Going with Progfan on this one.

Altho you're right KC5, if you like it, you like it. Doesn't matter who plays on it.

But none of the albums that anybody in that band did as a solo project (including the post-Waters releases still called "Pink Floyd" like Division Bell or Momentary Lapse) are anywhere near as good as the albums put out by that band in it's heyday.

Like Lennon/McCartney, their synergy made the magic.

[kingcrim05]

Can't argue personal taste, that's one thing i know lol

I just want to figure out why people don't like Divison Bell. To me it's a very emotional album. The track order is very important and the songs tend to blend together well. The instrumentaton is incredible, the sounds achieved, to my ears, are of Pink Floyd quality (i think it's very arguable that pink floyd has some of the best sounds on the planet), and DB meets those standards.

It's the type of album you can listen to the whole thing through, without opening your eyes once....

I gotta say give it anotehr spin guys, i'm sure it's been a long tiem for some of you......and i'll pop in Animals again =)

[Dusty Chalk]

That's okay, I'm with you KC05 -- well, not really. Animals tops them all, in my book (with Wish You Were Here, of course), but I dig A Momentary Lapse of Reason and Division Bell more than The Wall and The Final Cut -- those were more like Roger Waters solo albums than Pink Floyd. I consider those more "real" Pink Floyd albums than those two.

[ForeverAutumn]

For me, the answer is simple. No Roger Waters=No Pink Floyd.

Why are all these Pink Floyd discussions hidden in other threads?

As I've mentioned earlier, but you may not have been around progfan, I've been relistening to my entire PF collection in chronological order. It's been an interesting ride.

Here's an observation of mine. If I didn't know that Rogers Waters was not involved in A Momentary Lapse of Reason, then I wouldn't have guessed it. Although all of the songs on this disk were written or co-written by Gilmour, the lyrics seem to be a natural extension of the political themes that Waters picked up early in his writing and really brought to the forefront in The Wall and The Final Cut.

There's an interesting interview with Waters in the June issue of Uncut. In it, he says that Gilmour didn't want to release The Final Cut because he thought that the lyrics were too political. He also criticizes Gilmour's ability to be a songwriter. Basically saying that you don't learn to write songs, either you have the gift or you don't and Gilmour doesn't (I'm paraphrasing).

Well, I think that the lyrics in AMLOR are just as politically charged and are more interesting than those in The Final Cut. The music, IMO, is better than either The Wall or The Final Cut.

While the concept of The Wall was brilliant, the albums after his departure are excellent. In fact, I think, better than the Waters controlled material (i.e. The Wall, TFC). I believe that TFC is their weakest album and, not coincidentally, was the album that the rest of the band had the least input.

I'm beginning to think that, in general, Rogers Waters is trying to boost his own stature in PF history and steal the credit for PFs earlier success by putting down his bandmates. I don't buy the arguement that Pink Floyd without Roger Waters is not Pink Floyd. It all sounds like sour grapes to me.

[progfan]

To elaborate on my no Waters no Floyd comment:

I agree with Waters himself on the topic of Gilmour-the man just cannot write as well as Waters. I remember when Lapse of Reason was released. I was still in high school. I thought the album was brilliant then. But over time, I liked it less and now I can barely listen to it. Sure, there are some political references on the album, but Gilmour's gentle, almost folky take on politics can't compare to the bite and outrage of Waters'. The anger and the edge of Waters' lyrics are what have made albums like Animals and The Wall so essential for me. But AMLOR sounds like Pink Floyd-lite to my ears. Almost New Age in places, particularly side 2. Ditto for TDB. Granted, TDB is beautifully recorded and probably a more rounded album than AMLOR. But as someone else pointed out, it is the synergy of Waters/Gilmour/Wright/Mason that made the Floyd who they were in the seventies. OTOH, If Waters had done the same thing and reformed the Floyd without Gilmour, it still wouldn't be Floyd to me. They bring out the best in each other. Just as Floyd's albums have suffered from a lack of Waters, Waters own albums are slightly clueless without Gilmour. Eric Clapton and Jeff Beck just don't go with Waters style of writing. IMO, of course.

Then there's the cast of thousands that appear on the album and on stage. Were it not for Gilmour's distinctive style of playing, I could be fooled into thinking I was watching a tribute band. I never saw the band live in the seventies, but the bootlegs I've heard have suggested a rawer and tougher sound that I find more appealing than the flawless, almost inhumanly perfect computerized sounds of the more recent tours. And the idea of the band playing in stadiums again seems antithetical to the very things Waters himself was ranting about after the Animals tour. I just don't think he would put himself in a position to play stadiums anymore.

If Waters is trying to "steal" the credit for Floyd's work, well, I think he deserves it. Sure, the guy can be a jerk but if you look at the writing of the band's classic era, Waters contributed much more than Gilmour did. You might not like ANimals or The Wall as well as the reunion era Floyd, maybe because of Waters perceived megalomaniac tendencies, but these are some of the band's most famous albums. So these are some of the reasons why I feel that No Waters=No Floyd.

[ForeverAutumn]

Progfan, your points are well made. There is no doubt that the best PF is the Waters/Gilmour/Wright/Mason collaberations. And I guess where the lyrics are concerned, I prefer the folky fluid lyrics over the harsh in-your-face lyrics of Waters. Just as I prefer the more spacey music of Obscured by Clouds and Meddle over the harsher sounds of The Wall.

It's been many years since I've listened to TDB and I really don't remember much of it. But, it's playing as I type this. So far it has the feel of some of the earlier classic Floyd. Some nice Gilmour guitar moments.

Edit: As I continue to listen, I could live without the back-up singers. Take It Back is sounding a little cheesy.

[progfan]

Forever Autumn said:

"Just as I prefer the more spacey music of Obscured by Clouds and Meddle over the harsher sounds of The Wall."

After all the points I made, I agree with you on Meddle! Perhaps it's my fave Floyd. Obscured sounds like a dry run for Dark Side to me. Although the movie is quite good. Have you seen it?

[ForeverAutumn]

After all the points I made, I agree with you on Meddle! Perhaps it's my fave Floyd. Obscured sounds like a dry run for Dark Side to me. Although the movie is quite good. Have you seen it?

Movie? For DSOTM or OBC? The only movies I've seen are The Wall (about a zillion times) and Pompeii (sp?).

[BradH]

Basically saying that you don't learn to write songs, either you have the gift or you don't and Gilmour doesn't (I'm paraphrasing).

That may be the stupidest thing Waters has ever said. None of them had the "gift" after Syd left. It took everything they had to continue and Gilmour was a HUGE part of that. Waters songwriting abilities eventually grew while, at the same time, he dominated the larger projects by throwing such a fit that they let him have his way. (Granted, they have no one else to blame but themselves for this.) And, if I recall, all of their musical ideas were used on the Wall, weren't they? The grand concepts may have been Waters' but don't all their names turn up in the songwriting credits?

[mad rhetorik]

To elaborate on my no Waters no Floyd comment:

I agree with Waters himself on the topic of Gilmour-the man just cannot write as well as Waters. I remember when Lapse of Reason was released. I was still in high school. I thought the album was brilliant then. But over time, I liked it less and now I can barely listen to it. Sure, there are some political references on the album, but Gilmour's gentle, almost folky take on politics can't compare to the bite and outrage of Waters'. The anger and the edge of Waters' lyrics are what have made albums like Animals and The Wall so essential for me. But AMLOR sounds like Pink Floyd-lite to my ears. Almost New Age in places, particularly side 2. Ditto for TDB. Granted, TDB is beautifully recorded and probably a more rounded album than AMLOR. But as someone else pointed out, it is the synergy of Waters/Gilmour/Wright/Mason that made the Floyd who they were in the seventies. OTOH, If Waters had done the same thing and reformed the Floyd without Gilmour, it still wouldn't be Floyd to me. They bring out the best in each other. Just as Floyd's albums have suffered from a lack of Waters, Waters own albums are slightly clueless without Gilmour. Eric Clapton and Jeff Beck just don't go with Waters style of writing. IMO, of course.

If Waters is trying to "steal" the credit for Floyd's work, well, I think he deserves it. Sure, the guy can be a jerk but if you look at the writing of the band's classic era, Waters contributed much more than Gilmour did. You might not like ANimals or The Wall as well as the reunion era Floyd, maybe because of Waters perceived megalomaniac tendencies, but these are some of the band's most famous albums. So these are some of the reasons why I feel that No Waters=No Floyd.

My feelings 'xactly.

After Syd left Roger was the leading songwriter in that band. I don't think that can be denied. That said, Gilmour is his musical superior. Put together an excellent songwriter and an excellent musician, and what do you have? Pink Floyd. Even The Final Cut benefitted tremendously from Gilmour's limited involvement; so in that I'm not even entirely comfortable in calling The Final Cut a Waters solo. Waters' solo efforts without Gilmour have been uninspired, to say the least. Strong lyrically, sure, but nondescript music, and Roger's voice is only worsening with age.

Without Waters, A Momentary Lapse Of Reason and The Division Bell aren't Pink Floyd; they are Gilmour solo albums in all but name. Pretty music (I wouldn't expect anything less from a talented guitarist like Gilmour), but without the lyrical bite that Waters provided, it's left sounding hollow and banal by comparison.

Here's how I would rank the albums, IMO (assuming that the last two count as 'Floyd):

1. Animals
2. The Wall (hmm...guess I have an apparent Waters bias, huh?)
3. Dark Side Of The Moon
4. Meddle
5. Piper At The Gates Of Dawn
6. Wish You Were Here
7. The Final Cut (this actually would be rated higher than WYWH if "Not Now John" wasn't on it)
8. Obscured By Clouds
9. Tie: More, Ummagumma
10. The Division Bell
11. Saucerful Of Secrets (mostly for the title track, "Set The Controls For The Heart Of The Sun," and "Jugband Blues"; the rest is twaddle)
12. A Momentary Lapse Of Reason

I haven't heard Atom Heart Mother yet. I plan on rectifying this shortly.

[BradH]

After Syd left Roger was the leading songwriter in that band. I don't think that can be denied.

Of course it can. There WAS no songwriter in the band just after Syd drifted into orbit. PF fans were astonished that the band was going to continue. Waters wasn't gifted with songwriting, he had to work for it like every one else. In terms of volume, yeah, he had the lion's share but his early songs from that era aren't any better than Wright's, imo. But credit where credit is due, they stuck to it and Waters possibly worked at songwriting a little harder than the others. And that's really my point. I've heard many, many songwriters, everyone from Bryan Ferry to Elvis Costello to Andy Partridge, describe it as a craft you have to learn. Even McCartney and Lennon wrote their first 200 songs and basically threw them away. Now, if Waters is saying Gilmour is so ungifted that he CAN'T write songs, no matter how hard he tries, well....that's another issue.

Funny thing about artists. If you dismiss their work as something that just magically appears, they'll tell you there's a lot of hard work involved. If you dismiss their work as something anyone can do given enough effort, they'll tell you an artistic x factor is needed. Personally, I'd say it's about %10 X Factor and %90 sweat.

[ForeverAutumn]

Here's a quote from the Uncut interview that I found particularly interesting...

Uncut: What were the contributions of Dave and Nick to The Final Cut? Did they give them willingly?

RW: Oh, absolutely. Nick played drums and Dave played guitars.

There you have it boys and girls. In the words of Roger Waters...Dave played guitars.

Edit: Oh, and here't the quote re: songwriting....

...since I left the band, Dave has collaborated with all kinds of people to get some kind of an output, because he isn't actually a writer. You either write or you don't. If you do, you can't help it. You can't stop yourself doing it. And if you don't write, you can't start yourself doing it. You can't think, "Oh, I'll become a writer now", and start writing. If it were as simple as that, I'm sure Dave and Rick would write. If it were easy, everybody would be doing it. But it's not. It's a very specific skill.

[BradH]

...since I left the band, Dave has collaborated with all kinds of people to get some kind of an output, because he isn't actually a writer. You either write or you don't. If you do, you can't help it. You can't stop yourself doing it. And if you don't write, you can't start yourself doing it. You can't think, "Oh, I'll become a writer now", and start writing. If it were as simple as that, I'm sure Dave and Rick would write. If it were easy, everybody would be doing it. But it's not. It's a very specific skill.

Just as I suspected. He sees himself as an artist and Gilmour as a technician. Probably a small element of truth in that given Waters' occasional sloppy bass playing onstage contrasted with Gilmour being one of the most underrated guitarists alive. But on the point of songwriting, it sounds like he wants to have it both ways. Or maybe several ways. If you do you can't stop yourself. If you don't you can't start. Huh? You start by starting, even if it sucks at first. And starting is exactly what he did when Syd left. Okay, okay, let's say he's born to the muse, he's a divine gift form the spheres, etc. But then he ends it by saying it's a very specific SKILL. And that's true, but it's a very specific skill you have to learn. He's trying to wrap what he does in artistic mysticism that can't be understood by mere technicains like David Gilmour. This is truly one band that will never reunite.

[Troy]

And if you don't write, you can't start yourself doing it. You can't think, "Oh, I'll become a writer now", and start writing.

Bollocks.

[BarryL]

Here are some:

Van Der Graff Generator: A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers and House With No Door
The Flower Kings: The Truth Will Set You Free
Spock's Beard: The Light
Yes: Perpetual Change
Bowie: Station To Station
Harry Chapin: Sniper
ELP: Pirates
Refugee: Grand Canyon Suite
Pat Metheny Group: As Witchita Falls, So Falls Witchita Falls
Arlo Guthrie: Alice's Resteraunt

[Dave_G]

First of all I can't believe this thread is getting up to 40 posts, pretty damn good.

Secondly, I think that Roger Waters was and is still the best member of Pink Floyd.

I have seen PF without him ( bummer ) and have seen him solo several times.

PF sans RW relies too much on lights, foof, and "show", to cover his abscence.

RW solo is killer. The R.A.D.I.O.K.A.O.S. concerts were some of the best ever.

David Gilmore of course was/is a key member, but I think PF was "Rogers Band" so to speak. Kind of like when PG left Genesis.

Any doubters need only watch the RW concert dvd called "In The Flesh". That sums it all up for me.

But all of this is just my opinion, folks.

Dave

[Dusty Chalk]

Secondly, I think that Roger Waters was and is still the best member of Pink Floyd.

I disagree completely. My favourite has well gone to Gilmour at this point. I mean, listen to the bassline of "One of these Days", "Shine On You Crazy Diamond, Pt. ...7? is it?", and "Sheep". You say "reinvents himself", I say "repeats himself".

I have seen PF without him ( bummer ) and have seen him solo several times.

PF sans RW relies too much on lights, foof, and "show", to cover his abscence.

Dude! Have you heard about their earlier concerts? They used to depend on foof, show, lights, lasers, volume (enough to kill fish, at one particular incident), huge inflatable octopuses, and other such "spectacle" -- that's one of the reasons I love them so much. Sure, it's visual smoke and mirrors, but they've got the music to back it up. My favourite kind of concert is when it's the best of both worlds. A lost art. It's one of the reasons I liked Sigur Rós live so much -- although completely different form of visuals (mesmerizing, rather than explosive or amusing), it's still a "best of both worlds" type of scenario, and perfectly suited to their music.

But I digress...my point was, Pink Floyd have always had a flashy stage show, and are not using it to cover Roger's ommission. On the contrary, I applaud them for hiring multiple additional musicians to pull it all off live, rather than having half of it pre-recorded, as is too often the case.

David Gilmore of course was/is a key member, but I think PF was "Rogers Band" so to speak.

Hardly. He only really took over around 1978/1979 or so, during the writing of the wall. Look at the writing credits to Dark Side of the Moon, Animals and Wish You Were Here to get a better idea of whose band it is.

Kind of like when PG left Genesis.

Excellent analogy, but I don't think it makes your point, I think it makes mine.

Any doubters need only watch the RW concert dvd called "In The Flesh". That sums it all up for me.

Convinces me of nothing.

Not meant as a flame post/response, but you just said a lot of things with which I heartily disagree. Cheers.

[progfan]

On the contrary, I applaud them for hiring multiple additional musicians to pull it all off live, rather than having half of it pre-recorded, as is too often the case.

Well, they had no problem pulling it off live in the seventies without all those extra musicians. Sure, they had a sax player and couple of backing vocalists, but not 2 or 3 guitarists, 2 keyboard players, 2 percussionists, 3 backing singers, a horn player like they did recently. I had the same problem when The Who reunited for their 1989 tour. It just wasn't The Who with all those extras hanging around. Tommy sounded far too corny with all the window dressing.

He only really took over around 1978/1979 or so, during the writing of the wall. Look at the writing credits to Dark Side of the Moon, Animals and Wish You Were Here to get a better idea of whose band it is.Excellent analogy, but I don't think it makes your point, I think it makes mine.Convinces me of nothing.

Well, Gilmour is only co-credited with one song on Animals (Dogs). And Waters wrote all the lyrics for Dark Side and WYWH. The others made some contributions to the songs pre Animals, but if you tallied everything up, clearly Waters wrote the most. Personally, I don't like the idea of Floyd without both Waters and Gilmour.

And Genesis put out some great albums after PG left. What about "A Trick of the Tail" and "Wind and Wuthering"?

[Dusty Chalk]

And Waters wrote all the lyrics for Dark Side and WYWH.

Lyrics, schmyrics, I was talking about the music.

The others made some contributions to the songs pre Animals, but if you tallied everything up, clearly Waters wrote the most.

Again, I wasn't talking about the lyrics, I was talking about the music.

And Genesis put out some great albums after PG left. What about "A Trick of the Tail" and "Wind and Wuthering"?

Exactly.

[DarrenH]

Getting back to the original question. Not that there's anything wrong with a good Floyd discussion......

The Necromancer - Rush (Caress of Steel) 12:30
The Fountain of Lamneth - Rush (Caress of Steel) 19:59

I just revisited this album today and I must say this rawks. The whole album is highly under-rated imo. One of my fav Rush albums.

Baker St. Muse - Jethro Tull (Minstrel In The Gallery) 16:40

One of my most favorite Tull songs from one of my most favorite Tull albums.

Pharoah's Dance - Miles Davis (B!tches Brew) 20:05
Miles Runs The Voodoo Down - Miles Davis (B!tches Brew) 14:01

Not a lot of love for BB around here but this smokes to my ears. Great, great stuff.

Right Off - Miles Davis (Tribute To Jack Johnson) 26:54

If ya didn't like BB you might groove to this. Fantastico.

Nine Feet Underground - Caravan (In The Land of Grey and Pink) 22:40

Excellent Canterbury style riffin' and rockin'. I dig this stuff.

Salisbury - Uriah Heep (Salisbury) 16:22

This is flat out one of the best songs Uriah Heep ever wrote. It rules!

Darren

Edit: I have to add this. Can't believe I overlooked it.

Atom Heart Mother - Pink Floyd (Atom Heart Mother) 23:43

[DPM]

1) Isildurs Bane/The Flight Onward from Mind Volume 1
2) Led Zeppelin/Achilles Last Stand from Presence
3) Led Zeppelin/In My Time Of Dying from Physical Graffiti
4) Jethro Tull/Baker St. Muse from Minstrel In The Gallery
5) Porcupine Tree/Russia On Ice from Lightbulb Sun
6) White Willow//Gnostalgia from Sacrement
7) Deep Purple/Child In Time from In Rock
8) Jane's Addiction/Three Days from Ritual de lo Habitual
9) King Crimson/Starless from Red
10) Djam Karet/Feast Of Ashes from Burning The Hard City
11) Porcupine Tree/Buying New Soul from Recordings
12)Porcupine Tree/Even Less (full length version) from Recordings

Dave M

[Mark of Cenla]

Kansas - "Song for America"

Camel - "The Snow Goose"

Jethro Tull - "A Passion Play"

Spock's Beard - "Flow", "The Great Nothing"

Transatlantic - "Stranger in Your Soul"

[audiobill]

I'm enjoying reading this thread, esp. the PF discussion -- you'd think this was Rocky Road the way RRers are getting passionate about an old band....he,he,he,he......

Two more oldies for ya:

1. CSNY's "Suite Judy Blue Eyes"

2. The Who's "Doctor Jimmy/The Rock/Love, Reign O'er Me" -- from Quadrophenia (this is a bit of a cheat, but I consider these one song)

Cheers,
audiobill