F bombs & graffic language

[Mr Peabody]

At risk of alienation I wanted to see how you all felt about hard rock, rap & alternative bands peppering their lyrics with F bombs & graffic language. It seems that maybe artists feel they won't sell or aren't "legit" if they don't do this. On the other hand there are many artists in these genres that seem to sell great with none of the gratuitous language.

For me, to borrow a phrase from B B King, the thrill is gone. If you could call it a thrill. I remember in high school when Ted Nugent (I think I am dating myself) released Double Live Gonzo the buzz was all about him saying, " anyone came to be mellow can turn around and get the F out of here" and making mention of Nashville's cat population. Then in the 80's we had the big sensorship battle. I am not in favor of sensorship, if they put language on the recording I don't like, I don't have to buy it. The same as if it sucked for other reason I wouldn't buy it. I can't think of the Tool album, but it's the one with Stink Fist, this album has a very angry feel to it and wouldn't have the same impact without some of the language. I mean if they said "insert that digit in your annul orphus" it wouldn't have the same effect as what they actually say. On other recordings if you remove the language you don't miss it. It seems like it is there just because you can. Of course, maybe that's why anyone uses prophanity. I just think in music is a "been there, done that" thing and now it's more annoying than anything else for me.

Children will here this stuff soon enough without me playing it for them. I admit that if given the choice I buy edited versions.

I just wanted to see if I was turning into some kind of ultra conservative or if maybe anyone else agreed with me.

[Dusty Chalk]

I stand by two adages, "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your ability to say it", and "they're just words".

Specifically, the former would be targetted at all the rappers and metalers who gratuitously spew those four letter words. I agree it's over done, I don't like it. But I will be damned if I will let any organization -- much less one even remotely related to the government -- decide which words I can hear, and which ones I can't. Only I can judge as to what offends me (and believe me, they do offend me). Personally, when that Pink Floyd lyric on The Wall tells how many channels and of what on the Teevee there is to choose from, no non-four-letter word can express the bile that is appropriate for the feeling. Alright, maybe "drivel" would work, but ...alright, bad example...anyway, Roger Waters chose to use that word, and I think that word works in that context. And if I don't like it, I don't have to buy it (but I did, like umpteen times, too -- but there are plenty of other words that I didn't).

The second adage is my own. When people get overtly offended over such words, they're giving power to words that they really don't want to give power to. They're allowing those words to offend them, when really, they would like to wipe it off their shoe, rinse it down the gutter, or whatever. So don't let 'em see you get offended, and they lose their power.

[Worf101]

words matter. Speech matters. The power to move with the spoken or written word is a keen double edged sword. With the spoken word you can have both Hitler and Ghandi. Such is its power. I feel like you Dusty, live and let live, and free speech whenever possible. But I don't give a blank check to hate speech that openly and actively advocated violence against any individual or group. Shouting "KILL (fill in the blank)" is not freedom of expression but incitement to riot and murder, that I do not condone.

Da Worfster

[Troy]

Swearing works in certain musical contexts, yeah. I'm not offended by it at all because in person I tend to curse like a sailor.

But when you are consciously writing lyrics, sitting there creating wordcraft, I can't imagine writing a bunch of 4 letter words into a song. It's too cheap, too easy and in the final anaylisis, just boring. It makes the writer look uneducated and illiterate.

Only children are really impressed by swearing. Adults have heard it all before. Adding a bunch of cursing to your music will make it appeal to 13 year olds, not adults.

[Gresh]

Swearing works in certain musical contexts, yeah. I'm not offended by it at all because in person I tend to curse like a sailor.

But when you are consciously writing lyrics, sitting there creating wordcraft, I can't imagine writing a bunch of 4 letter words into a song. It's too cheap, too easy and in the final anaylisis, just boring. It makes the writer look uneducated and illiterate.

Only children are really impressed by swearing. Adults have heard it all before. Adding a bunch of cursing to your music will make it appeal to 13 year olds, not adults.

Troy,

Agree with most of your points... Many of the artists that rely heavily on profanity are indeed uneducated and probably borderline illiterate... That's not to say unintelligent, because as I think we all know - it is 13 year olds who get a titter (hehe I said titter) out of profanity and buy these artist's products - the record companies know this.

On the other hand, sometimes a choice insertion of a four letter word is chillingly effective. Case in point for is Elliot Smith - just his whispered hush of "focked up" really conveys his sense of frustation and futility of a given situation.

I think no matter the genre, whether it's rap, rock, metal... profanity for shock value is cheap but in the proper contex can be an effective way of conveying thoughts...

On the same topic different spin... Does a comedian who uses profanity (Rock, Carlin) taking an easier way out than those who work clean( Cosby, Seinfeld)?

In the end, it's all sticks and stones...

[skeptic]

It fits the music perfectly.

If words could kill, I'd have been hung long ago. And as for skewering people when I feel like it, I have no reservations, no conscience and no remorse. But to anyone who thinks about it, these over used words are ineffective and rather than convey an insult to the person or object they are directed at, they speak much louder and clearer about the person who says them especially when used again and again. Like saying "have a nice day" they lose all impact. So what does that say about the singer (if you can call what these people do singing)? It says that he, like his music, is vacuous, vapid, insipid and a tiresome bore. (look up the first three if you have a dictionary and remember how to use it.) Then look at the mentality of the people who buy that music and go to those concerts and you will see why it has some commercial success. And to think that they not only let these people drive, they let them vote too. FiretrUCK that.

[MindGoneHaywire]

[QUOTE=skeptic]It fits the music perfectly. QUOTE]

You're the guy who said "John Coltrane sucks," and tried to tell me that no brass or woodwind instrument can possibly measure up to a violin, so listening to a lecture from you on popular music is just as much of a waste of time as getting a veal recipe from a vegan.

Yes, profanity can be gratuitous in pop music, and it's been that way for quite some time. Gangsta rap probably has as much to do with this as anything else, though the Mentors came before gangsta rap. Though I found the Mentors funny, and the first N.W.A. album, too. Some of you got a blues comp from me a few years back which included an extremely profane Lucille Bogan track from 1935. It was an exception, not the norm, of course--on vinyl. There may have been a lot more of that sort of thing going on in after-hours bars and whorehouses, who knows. Obviously, the times have changed. But Peter's point, which was an echo of what Lenny Bruce once said, hasn't. I don't really care how much profanity is involved in a record, because if the music's good & it makes sense, then it doesn't seem gratuitous. I have heard plenty of records where the profanity was gratuitous, and I didn't like the music enough to overcome this--but I look at this as a music issue more than a profanity issue. I don't know if I can name a lot of records where I like the music a lot but the profanity seems gratuitous & that ruins the record for me. When it seems unnecessary, I'm not really interested. Sometimes it makes sense. My view on this parallels fairly closely my feelings about movies. I'll sit through a great movie even if I think the language is a bit over-the-top as far as cursing. If the movie's only good then I might wonder why they didn't just tone it down a bit. But if I don't like it at all, the profanity doesn't really mean all that much. I've seen loads of crappy movies that weren't particularly objectionable, language-wise.

The problem is how much of this is marketed towards, and heard by, children, who often have no context. It's a problem. Some say words can't hurt kids, but I think it's difficult to deny that anti-social & violent & even misogynistic imagery--and I'm not just talking about gangsta rap--have an effect on some kids. The rights of the artist rightly come first, but the effect on civility is something that I think can be denied. I really don't think that any record is going to cause anybody to go out and commit crimes--and if it is, it would've been a movie you could blame it on, or a television show, or a poor role model. But it'd be nice if children heard a little less of this stuff, or at least had someone to explain what some it means. Although it's not really tongue-in-cheek anymore, for the most part...not to mention that if there were someone around to properly explain what it meant, that person would likely be a parent figure who shouldn't let a child hear something like that in the first place. So here it's a thorny issue. But I think too much of it is made at times, and overall it's more a question of music imitating life, not the other way around.

[kexodusc]

Music's more about image and marketing than ever before, so the profanity is to be expected, I guess. It doesn't bother me, though I find it boring and rarely adding anything to the performance these days. It was so much more intense when I was a kid.

I have to agree with Worf. Words mean something. I believe in free speech. I also believe in accountability. Everyone owes a duty of care to everyone else, that inludes the choice of words used, and their meaning. If the intention is art, I have no problem with profanity...if the intention is hate, I don't want to hear it.

[skeptic]

Yes image. I get a very clear image of the kind of people who like this kind of music. I get an image of thousands of screaming, yelling young fans filling Madison Square Garden, their brains numb on cocaine, heroine, marijuana, alchohol or speed, almost completely deaf so they barely can hear the blasting shrieking noise coming from a 50,000 watt sound system, thinking that if they can't remember it, they will have had a good time. Now what kind of tweeters did you say they prefer in their high end speakers? Bet there's no SET fans there.

[Troy]

Many of the artists that rely heavily on profanity are indeed uneducated and probably borderline illiterate... That's not to say unintelligent, because as I think we all know - it is 13 year olds who get a titter (hehe I said titter) out of profanity and buy these artist's products - the record companies know this.

Yes, they are shrewdly pandering to their target audience. So in that regard, they ARE intelligent. But the context I was talking about, these artists are gonna say f*** instead of another more concise word because thay CAN'T come up with that more concise word. The kiddies think its cool and badass because their parents and geezers like me roll their eyes and the pathetic cycle of illiteracy continues. In America today, stupidity is considered cool and inteligence is considered highbrow and dorky. A conspiracy to control the masses? Depends who you ask . . .

On the other hand, sometimes a choice insertion of a four letter word is chillingly effective. Case in point for is Elliot Smith - just his whispered hush of "focked up" really conveys his sense of frustation and futility of a given situation.

I think no matter the genre, whether it's rap, rock, metal... profanity for shock value is cheap but in the proper contex can be an effective way of conveying thoughts...

Absolutely. Re-read my first 2 sentences.

On the same topic different spin... Does a comedian who uses profanity (Rock, Carlin) taking an easier way out than those who work clean( Cosby, Seinfeld)?

Yes, I think so.

BUT

Carlin's genius is that he made comedy out of the fact that the words were obscene. He turned it around on itself. He will always be one of my favorites BECAUSE of this. Guys like Rock that spew constant 4 letter words conversationally, as part of their story telling style fall into the catagory of propagating people's inability to articulate. "If Chris Rock says f*** every other word, it's good enough for me". Thing is, Rock IS a really intelligent guy. And articulate too. He's just pandering to the lowest common denominator, going for the cheap laugh and for that, he gets very little respect from me.

[-Jar-]

Personally, when that Pink Floyd lyric on The Wall tells how many channels and of what on the Teevee there is to choose from, no non-four-letter word can express the bile that is appropriate for the feeling. Alright, maybe "drivel" would work, but ...alright, bad example...anyway, Roger Waters chose to use that word, and I think that word works in that context. And if I don't like it, I don't have to buy it (but I did, like umpteen times, too -- but there are plenty of other words that I didn't).

Yes.. that is definately one of the greatest "****s" ever uttered on record.

and while we're discussing that song, I've always wondered if the Gomer Pyle "Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!" was intentional or a brilliant accident. I seem to lean towards the former, but either way, it's brilliant...even though it took me a few years to come to that conclusion...

oh yea, and every explative in "Hooker with a Penis" is totally required. What rage that song expresses.. sometimes you just gotta let them loose..

-jar

[Resident Loser]

...any shock value...it becomes commonplace, unwelcome but commonplace...my objection to it all(and lord knows my language can be atrocious) is that it IS so commonplace...it has no meaning other than to offend...

I would rather see some sort of control than not...I don't want to be a captive audience...look at that stupid ball game with Toyota, or whatever her name is...I personally think sports and all the trappings about it are lame, but there are those who see it as a "family" sort of thing. Should they have been subjected to that banal stupidity?

Whether it's music, or film or whatever...it's all pee-pee, doo-doo, caa-caa...unfortunately, what sells, caters to the lowest common denominator...most of the audience are just slimey, low-class rat bags and the "artistes" are more than willing to provide a heapin' helpin' of verbal and visual excrement.

On a lesser scale, my wife and I find ourselves assaulted on a regular basis by tee-vee and radio ads...being forced to listen to crass and offensive(to OUR sensibilities) ads that exhibit behavior and music catering to that LCD mentality. Thank God for remotes, pity it can't be on auto-pilot.

jimHJJ(...and please, to those to whom the following statement might apply: kindly spare me the "free-speech" cr@p...)

[jrhymeammo]

_R.I.P. Mitch Hedburg 1968-2005_

Wait a minute, he's dead? I saw him with Atell and Black. Mitch was the funniest. Man, that's too bad.

[Dusty Chalk]

Yeah, it sucks. I only just discovered him, myself.

He was still alive when this thread was being constructed.

[Troy]

Wow, a 3 year old argument surfaces again. How amusing.

Is that Skeptic douchebag still posting here? He sure has a lot of posts.

[GMichael]

This is like the thread from the dead. I was 4 posts in before I noticed how old it is.

"This here guitar is guarantied to blow the b.lls off a charging rhino at 50 paces."

[Resident Loser]

...after all this time, some of skeptic's responses still make me LOL...

jimHJJ(...revere him as a god indeed!...)

[jrhymeammo]

I did this thing called "search" 99.9% of us are not aware of. Then came across this thread and saw the bad news..

Hey GM, where can I get that Guitar?