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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
<snip>
hermanv, the MMG series have captive speaker wire, so changing that out is probably not an option. If I do spring for a larger pair, I'll definitely explore that. I'd be very curious to hear how something like the Mapleshade wire would do compared to my garden-hose-sized wire - that's still something I'm interested in trying out. Upgrading cross-overs is probably outside my comfort level, especially on the more expensive speakers - I would hate to screw that up.
I am not familiar with that model. Since Magnapan has been doing this for many years, they may well have read the cable critique. If so, it would certainly be no surprise if they found a good cable match and then made it integral or captive.
I can easily sympathize about a reluctance to change capacitors. There is a correlation between those capacitors most people think sound better and physical size, the better ones can be quite big and may not fit into he space allocated by the factory. If the speakers are new, who wants to jury rig a carbuncle on your new expensive toys?
Besides if the speakers are new the crossover is likely to need a hundred hours of break in. For normal listening, this would take months. And if they are a newer design, Magnapan may well have made a capacitor design change.
In any event, congratulations, all reviews and forum posts say you have bought a fine product.
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The MAP-1 for $1200.00 is a deal. If you try Maple Shade be sure to post a review. I've always wondered if they lived up to what they wrote about them. They look a bit thin.
Why so hot, ever hear of AC? Get you some of those triple pain gas filled windows. I thought you would have moved into one of those under ground homes by now since you are our leading Green guy :)
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Green with envy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Why so hot, ever hear of AC? Get you some of those triple pain gas filled windows. I thought you would have moved into one of those under ground homes by now since you are our leading Green guy :)
I do have aircon, but that room is furthest from the AC unit, and gets the least. As far as going green, I've got double-pane windows, a heavy curtain (don't laugh, it makes a big difference), a whole-house fan, but it's not enough. Ceiling fans are next on the agenda, as soon as I get the money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
The MAP-1 for $1200.00 is a deal.
It comes without the remote, which I was not originally aware of, so that's a bit of a bother. McCormack's website is pathetic, to say the least and nobody there seems to want to answer the phone or email - I'm beginning to have doubts on that one. Anyhow, I'm going to see if I can get a lower price because of all this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
If you try Maple Shade be sure to post a review. I've always wondered if they lived up to what they wrote about them. They look a bit thin.
Yes they do, and it's what's always kept me skeptical. But I need to simplify things and a thiner wire would be a whole lot more manageable in the spaghetti soup I'm brewing behind my gear.
Hermanv, if there's one thing Magnepan can be criticized for it's the slow pace of change in their designs. Yes, they have a few models every now and then, but the technology has not changed much and they tend to stick to older connectors, wires, and capacitors a lot longer than they should.
I also can't seem to get a response from Magnepan. I know they're supposed to be phone-friendly, but that has not been my experience. At the risk of sounding suicidal about it: all I wanted was a center channel!
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There is hope for the Maple Shade, my Siltech aren't all that thick and the bass response is excellent.
Spearitsound has the MAP-1 and matching 5-channel amp for $4490.00 the pair new and that may include shipping. Jack Tozzi will answer your McCormack questions. His side kick that sometimes helps answer email isn't very informative but Jack usually is and he isn't afraid to tell it straight. Of course, the Rotel might already be there and the McCormack probably throws some heat. They may shoot you a deal on just the MAP1 though.
My sub is out and I have some other expenses to deal with so if you are even remotely interested in my Primare PM me an offer. It does have video but the analog is very good. In fact, going to Marantz was a step down in sound quality. Looking back if I knew then what I know now I wish I had bought a better BD player with decoding and bass management and stuck with the 31.7's analog input. I have two remotes :)
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Mr. P, that Primare is still in the back of my mind, but I'm hunting down the McCormack for an in-home audition first. One thing I don't like about the McCormack is that it's only 5.1 while the Parasound was 7.1, but I'm pretty sure they'll be very different in sound quality, too. In any case, the McCormack better impress me and I'm certainly not going to buy it w/o first hearing it.
On another note, the Rotel arrived last night. I haven't had a chance to fire it up, but I did get a chance to look inside (there was a small piece of plastic rolling around inside, so I opened it up). The first thing that struck me was that it is supposed to be 7-channel but it has 5 smaller isolated circuit boards, and two larger ones, so I can only guess that the two larger ones are for the front L&Rs. This doesn't jive completely with what is stated in the manual where it says that the 7 channels are identical.
I'm first going to use it as a 2-channel amp in place of my Spectron. I can't do a direct A/B comparison because I have no easy way to switch it, but I'll be taking notes. Once I am comfortable that it can handle the MMG-Ws adequately, I'll put it in the A/V rack and see how it handles a full-length film. My contact who sent the amp says that while it doesn't get very hot, it will get "warm to the touch" so I'll be checking for that.
If it does run too warm, then I'm going to go solid state and buy a 3-channel Odyssey Stratos for the rear channels and use the Spectron for the fronts. It can do 150/300/600 watts, theoretically, wich should be plenty. Klaus says that his amp has enough power reserves that it should run cool even running Maggies. I'm not so sure I believe that, but I've had great luck with Odyssey, so that is becoming a very real alternative. It's only $1550 and I'll try to negociate a 12v trigger into the deal, if I go that route. I have a Parasound SCAMP I can use, but I'd rather avoid the extra wiring.
Another question: someone on Audiogon is asking $925obo for a pair of Magnepan MG12s. Good deal or should I go up to the 1.6s? The 12s are a scosh smaller than the latter and the specs are about the same, but do they sound very different?
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Spearitsound will allow some time for return if not happy, although not as generous as other online retailers. You might check, I think www.amusicdirect.com either picked up McCormack or some pieces. Either way you aren't obligated if you wanted to shoot Jack some questions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
Another question: someone on Audiogon is asking $925obo for a pair of Magnepan MG12s. Good deal or should I go up to the 1.6s? The 12s are a scosh smaller than the latter and the specs are about the same, but do they sound very different?
12s and 1.6s sound exactly the same. 12 just puts out slightly smaller sound. If I was in your possible, I would look for a pair of 10.1QR. Modification work on the corssover looks extermely accessible.
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10.1qr? Those are not listed on the website. Are they much older?
Speaking of the MMG-Ws, for sh*ts-n-giggles I pushed them as hard as they would go last night. And yes, they do have their limit and will start to drop off very fast once you reach it. I've never heard that on Maggies and I would probably want to go louder than we did last night, so maybe these should be relegated to rear duty after all.
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Hi Nightflier, I own a system like your looking to make, so perhaps I can give you some of my findings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
1. The mid-range is great, but the top end is very easy to reach. I'm pretty deaf, but I can easily hear where the speaker ends. Would a super-tweeter help?
I've never added a super tweeter to any speaker, so on that account I'm in the dark. Perhaps yes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
2. Are the MC1s that much better? I can see that the top end would be much improved, but the bottom only adds 20Hz. For more than 3x the price, are they worth it?
The short answer is yes. The MC1's quasi-ribbon tweeter is so good that in some respects it's BETTER than the tweeter in my 3.6's on SOME program material. The MC1's tweeter is always sweet, where the 3.6's true ribbon can get a bit forward with poorly recorded material. (like most HT stuff!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
3. Can I comfortably use a MMG-C in the front with MC1s on the L&R? Or would I then really need to step that up to the CC3 (also at 3x the price)?
I would say ABSOLUTELY, however the CC3 will BLOW the MMG-C away on both resolution in the upper treble, and total output. Worth the upgrade eventually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
4. What are my options for the rear channel(s)? My room is small and these speakers throw a huge sound stage, so two more MMG-Ws in addition to the rears would really be overkill. Would I be able to use a single MMG-C or am I blaspheming with that suggestion?
The MC1's hang with little intrusion into the room in a 5.1 setup. Really they are less intrusive than the old stand mounts I used to use. For a 7.1 setup you will want 4 to 5 feet from rear the speakers to the back of the seating position. I think MMG-W's will be find for surround duty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
5. Due to circumstances, the only multi-channel amp I now have available to me is a 125/180W one. Frankly it can't do the job and peters out with loud effects. Someone suggested the Rotel RMB-1076/1077 since it can dip down to 2 ohms. I'm partial to Class-D and have had several so I don't have doubts about the technology, but it's only a 100/200 watt amp. Has anyone used these amps with Maggies and had good results?
I run a mixed setup amplified wise. The mains are run with class D PS Audio amp, the rears with my receiver (Pioneer Elite), and the center with a Musical Fidelity class A amp. You DON'T need an amp capable of 2 ohms with ANY maggie. They are all a resistive load, so the only problem will be how loud you want to drive them. I get my room PLENY loud and the most powerful amp I use is less than 200 per channel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
I know the higher-end Maggies have substantially greater range, but they are also more expensive, larger, and as I've found out, very heavy too, which makes them a pain to ship. So I really want to stay with the wall hanging speakers. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
As much as I love my 3.6's, I wouldn't be upset with a set of MC1's across the front. As long as you have a sub in the mix you've got a serious setup for both HT and audio.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Any one try or hear what happens when Maggies are driven by tubes?
Yes, and with the right setup it's magical. I've heard Maggie 3.6's driven by a set of reference Audio Research amps. Crazy good! Like floating in a sea of sound.......
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Geoff, that was very good info. Thanks. I think I'll be going forward with the MC1s as the mains, and the MMG-Ws as rears. So provided it all works out, I'm looking at:
McCormack MAP1 Preamp
Rotel RMB-1077 amp (7-channels, 200/400W ea.)
Magnepan MG-MC1s front L&R
Magnepan MMG-C center
Magnepan MMG-Ws rear L&R
If the MAP-1 doesn't work out, I'm at a loss for a simple multichannel preamp. Mr.P said that CJ makes a tubed one, but I'm not too crazy about adding tubes because of the heat. Of course, that would allow me to add the "tube sound" to the system.
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10.1QR can be found once in a while on Agon, and yes they are older than 12s.
Here is a pick from Agon that is currently being sold.
http://pic5.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1244658358.jpg
Not sure how handy you are, but if you will be modifying its crossovers, this one looks quite easier than 12s or 1.6QR. You would have to cut its socks for other models to access its crossovers. I would love to try another pair of Maggy's but its stock crossovers would have to go. I wish Magnepan offered crossover upgrade on their products.
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Modifying crossovers on the 1.6's is not too difficult, but you have to settle for an external mount.
I wonder if Magnepan has made any progress in bringing their mini panel to market. They displayed it at the January 2009 Consumer Electronics Show (see Squeegy's post on modifying x-overs in this forum. In his reply, E-Stat provided a link to Stereophile's picture of the mini panels displayed at the show).
To me, the mini panels look very intriguing as rear speakers in an HT setup, or even maybe as a center channel, particularly in a smaller/limited space listening area. I haven't seen any news on them other than the CES picture.
Bill
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Geoffcin, where've you been all this time? Modding under cover :)
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MG10.1 or MC1?
OK, the 10.1s have similar specs to the MC1s, but the reviews on the latter are far more positive. Some people have had horrible experiences with the 10.1s. If (and that's a big IF) that's just from a couple of disgruntled owners, and I do get the 10.1s, I will have panels that are the same width as the MC1s, 7" taller, that will handle an additional 50W of power and will have easier to mod cross-overs (although that is something I'm still not sure about doing). The drawback with the 10.1s is that they will have to be placed on the floor, away from the wall in what is really a fairly small room.
The bottom line is that I would only get the 10.1s if they would sound better than the MC1s. Used, the 10.1s are cheaper, but I had budgeted $800-ish for the front L&R anyhow, so the cost difference isn't really the issue for me. Any thoughts / recommendations?
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NF, have you hooked up the Rotel yet? Have you decided on a preamp? Spearitsound was showing a Refurb CJ MET-1 5-channel tube preamp for $2500.00 retail $7500.00. This is a killer deal, the refurbs usually carry full factory warranty.
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Yes, I have. Actually I've been very busy. Here's what I've done so far:
- Replaced all my speakers with Maggies (MG12s, MMG-C, and MMG-W)
- Replaced the Outlaw Amp with the Rotel
- Replaced the Preamp with a McCormack
I just finished replacing the rear speakers last night (it turns out that the wall measurements in the Magnepan manual are off, BTW). I don't like the sound of the Rotel as much (a bit on the mushy side of neutral), but it eats up half the watts as the Outlaw, so I'll live with it. Anyhow, I'm trying to use the Spectron for the fronts, so that won't be as much of an issue for stereo listening. The reason the Spectron is not there now is because I need RCA-XLR adapters and it has no 12v trigger. Maybe I'll have to rethink this part a little.
The McCormack is a nice upgrade. Super simple to set up and very good sound, definitely an upgrade from the Outlaw 970 pre/pro. For 2-channel music, it's a bit lush, certainly more so than my Plinius pre, but that gives movies a bit of extra weight and authority, so that's also something I can live with. I only have one source right now, so I don't need an HDMI switchbox. The McCormack remote is a little chitsy, but I will probably get a Harmony remote for the whole system in the near future. One other drawback is that it doesn't have a remote on/off from standby. You have to go over to it and turn it on. My room is small, but jeez, you'd think McCormack could have added that in.
For the source, I'm using a crappy HK player that is just OK for sound and a bit less OK for picture - in short, my non-upconverting Sony SACD/DVD player runs circles around it. On the other hand, the HK does upconvert (to 1080i only), and has HDMI output, which is what I need to run the video over Cat5 to the TV on the other side of the room. It also has passable bass management and channel calibration, a must for the plain-vanilla options on the McCormack. If the Oppo universal has good SACD, that's going to be the next upgrade.
For the speakers, I'm toying with Magnepan's suggestion to run the front L&R signals through the sub and let it handle all the bass management. It's a bit odd to do it that way, but they claim it makes for a cleaner integration of the severely hobbled center channel (100Hz-16Khz) with the larger speakers. Theoretically, this should only work with a processor, because you loose all the bass intended for the center and rear MMG channels, but how much bass are we talking about, really? I have to do more testing and see what I like better.
I will say, though, that the many options on the SVS PB12+, really come in handy in a screwy setup like this one. I'm still dealing with a bit of brightness on the MG12s, mostly because my room is too small for them. In hindsight, the MC1s would have been the better option, but finding a pair of those on the used market is pretty rare, whereas the MMG12s are popping up all the time. The room problem, however, is only temporary, since I don't plan on staying in this house too much longer (we're bursting at the seams).
I sold my room correction panels when I moved to the smaller room last year, so I need to
re-invest in some of those. Right now, the MG12's are right up against the wall and they really need some damping behind them. The center channel, according to Magnepan, should also have some damping behind it. I'll probably ask around in the DIY forum what others have done, because I'm really not ready to buy panels at retail prices right now. I know it sounds petty, but I just don't see why they should be that much.
Anyhow, that's what I've done so far. The sound is very good, even with the room issues. Once I get the Spectron and Oppo in there, I'll spend more time fine-tuning everything.
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You have been busy.
I agree with you on the sound of Rotel in general, it's even worse with both pre and power Rotel.
You might also be surprised at how much bass is in the center and surrounds. Especially the center. I'd recommend getting the Oppo or something similar with good bass management so you can use it to balance everything.
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Nightflier, if your MG12's are too bright you can tone it down with the resistor that Magnepan supplies to replace the jumper's on the back or the speakers.
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Blackraven,
Good point. I had forgotten about that.
Mr.P,
Don't get me wrong, it's an OK amp, but not for driving Maggies. When I tested it with my Talon Khites (easy to drive speakers), it proved to be fast and clean. I guess the best way to describe the sound is "without too much weight" which is really not what a bridghter sounding, open & airy speaker like the MG12 needs. The Spectron, in that respect, is a much better match - it has all of the Rotel's good qualities and then adds the "missing meat." Of course, it could also be that the Rotel doesn't have the needed power and that I'm really pushing it beyond what it was designed for.
This whole business with the cross-over is a whole other pickle, though. I really don't know what to do. On the one hand, the sub has additional dials for equalizing and could really be a great complement to stereo sound. But then I would have to "throw away" the bass in the center and surround channels. If, and that's a big if, the settings inside player are smart enough they should re-direct the bass from at least the center channel to the fronts (when these are set to large), but then I would still loose the bass from the surrounds. For that reason, I'm tempted to go with a more upscale BR player like the Denon so that I know I will have the configurability in the player that I will need.
This migration away from the many options of a processor is proving to be more work than I had hoped. Of course, it's my own fault for also changing out the speakers at the same time, obviously a big no-no in this hobby. It's just that these were a noticeable upgrade from the Viennas, and consequently a huge cost-savings too. In hindsight, I kind of wish I would have gone with the MC1s instead. That way I would have had to designate them as "small" and avoided the recommended fine-tuning that Magnepan recommends.
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Well, while you are contemplating spending more money take a look at the REL subs which offer independent separate volume controls for the inputs which allow for one set up for stereo and another for LFE. Or, you could buy a matching sub as the one you have and set the player to "no sub" and run one sub for each channel. For instance, left channel to sub and then out to main left speaker. With this though you'd have to be able to hopefully direct the rear and center bass to mains.
I'd try a typical HT set up first before anything where the sub crossover is bypassed and use the crossover in the player, setting the Maggies to "small" Hopefully, this will play a 2.1 for you in stereo.
An odd thing with my SVS, when I had the Velodyne I didn't get bass from the sub in stereo but with the SVS I do. It's great. The only thing I can imagine is maybe the 2-channel signal was too weak to turn the Velodyne on. That doesn't seem likely but I didn't change anything on the preamp. Another thought is the SVS plays higher so therefore I hear the bass with the SVS.
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I thought I would give a quick update. I'm now running:
- HK DVD-48 player (until the next upgrade)
- Sony SACD/DVD
- McCormack MAP-1
- Spectron D1 to the front L&R
- Rotel RMB-1077 to the center & rears
- Magnepan MG12s (front), MMG-C (center), and MMG-W (rears)
- SVS SB12+ (sealed sub)
The DVD player video is going straight to the TV via a Cat5 connection, the McCormack handles volume control and switching between the SACD and DVD for the 5.1 inputs. The front L&R is currently going straight to the Spectron, but as soon as I get some XLR adapters, I'll pass it to the Sub's XLR inputs so that it can do the filtering instead of letting the crappy HK do it. Fortunately the Sony SACD has more options on that front - and it sounds much better to boot (too bad it doesn't have HDMI or DVI).
Speaking of sound, I'm not too impressed with the MAP-1's vaulted surround mode from 2 channels, but on multichannel sound it sounds very powerful, which is important considering that the rest of the system is a bit crisp-sounding. I've also driven the MG12s to extremely high levels (the kind that will make you squint, and they did not break up, thin out, or sound compressed. The Spectron can output watts in spades and the Maggies just took it. Now that's not how I plan to listen all the time, but it's nice to know the system can do that.
On movies the sound is a little less impressive, and I'm still having to turn the center channel up a few decibels over what the pressure meter recommends. But it's still a very impressive and immersive sound. I watched some scenes from TLOTR and the width of the soundstage while keeping the clarity is truly remarkable. I'm still futsing with the sub settings, though and I'm not quite where I wan to be there. Maybe once I get the sub integrated with the front speakers it will sound better. Oh and I still need to try the MG12s with the resistors in place, as well.
I have a pair of MC1s possibly coming in a couple of weeks. They are black and the rest of the system is white, so color-wise I'm not crazy about it, but I'll give them a listen if/when they get here. The other upgrade is a better source. I'm still not certain on which way to go there, yet. The Oppo certainly looks good, but I'm keeping my options open.
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Sounds like your on the right track, congrats. Magnepans can be very rewarding to listen too with the right equipment and power.
For a source, consider a DAC like a used Benchmark or PS audio Digilink III, Cambridge Audio 640c, Music Hall 25.2 or Marantz SA8001-80003
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Nice set up NF. Glad things are coming together. I am really impressed with the SVS Ultra 13, if you decide you need a sub that will integrate beautifully and remain linear at higher bass frequencies it's the sub for the job.
The Marantz BD-8002 has been out long enough you might be able to find a deal on it. But it doesn't do SACD though. I wonder how far Sim Audio is from putting out something like this. I heard Arcam is but the price is off the chart.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
One other drawback is that it doesn't have a remote on/off from standby. You have to go over to it and turn it on. My room is small, but jeez, you'd think McCormack could have added that in.
As a fellow MAP-1 owner, that issue bugged the crap outta me also. Until...
Point your Harmony remote at that MAP-1 and hold the mute button down a few seconds and see if anything happens. The factory remote will do it also, it takes about a 2 second press of "mute" to bring the unit in and out of stand-by.
Spread the word.
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Ah, that's how my Conrad Johnson preamp works. But they were nice enough to tell me in the owner's manual.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Ah, that's how my Conrad Johnson preamp works. But they were nice enough to tell me in the owner's manual.
CJ and McCormack are "affiliated", are they not?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
CJ and McCormack are "affiliated", are they not?
I think C-J owns McCormack outright :) :)
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Awesome!
Quote:
Originally Posted by oaqm
As a fellow MAP-1 owner, that issue bugged the crap outta me also. Until...
Point your Harmony remote at that MAP-1 and hold the mute button down a few seconds and see if anything happens. The factory remote will do it also, it takes about a 2 second press of "mute" to bring the unit in and out of stand-by.
Spread the word.
Thanks!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
CJ and McCormack are "affiliated", are they not?
You are correct sir. I know McCormack is built in the CJ factory but I'm not sure of the exact relationship. I also know that the two differ widely in sound quality. Both good, just different.
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