Why not Universal Healthcare?

[blackraven]

I figured as much, but isn't that the crux of the matter, most people don't want to have to overpay so that others don't have to pay at all?

EXACTLY, FINALLY SOME ONE BESIDES MYSELF SAID IT!!!!!!!!!!!

[Feanor]

EXACTLY, FINALLY SOME ONE BESIDES MYSELF SAID IT!!!!!!!!!!!

No, 3LB wasn't first to say it. In fact it was me: I quote myself:

Will it cost too much? That's rubbish. We know that equivalent healthcare is cheaper per capita in countries with universal coverage. No, the real reasons are:

• Less significantly, those who imagine themselves to be rich, young, and/or healthy are afraid that their coverage won't be as good as now; (this is largely an illusion), but
• Primarily, those with a vested interest fear that they won't make the profits they're making now. (I'm always amazed when I hear that a public option would be "unfair competition" for private insurers. WTF!?!)

• But the notion is invalid that the middle class must necessarily be worse off on account of subsidizing healtcare for the poor. Yes, it might be true that the sort of half-measures presently under consideration by Congress. However at least 95% of Americans would personally have better health care for lower cost under a universal, single-payor system.

[nightflier]

I figured as much, but isn't that the crux of the matter, most people don't want to have to overpay so that others don't have to pay at all?

EXACTLY, FINALLY SOME ONE BESIDES MYSELF SAID IT!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe it's time we American realize that we actually should overpay so that others who can't pay don't have to. I know this is about as abhorrent to people as it sounds, but isn't that what society is about? Are we a society or a collection of individuals who only care about themselves? The fact is that if we don't care about others, it will mean more misery for us all and we as Americans just can't bring ourselves to realize that. Lack of adequate health care for all, opens us to greater risk from disease, slower response to care, overcrowded care facilities, higher costs, more people out of work longer because of illness, and if you're a true Darwinian, a necessary shrinking of communities as they consume more resources than the environment can sustain. And if you're a true capitalist, you'll also realize that in the long-run this is also bad for the growth of business and the corporation. IMO, that's why it just barely squeezed by in the house.

The way we've been doing things worked off-and-on while we were still fulfilling our manifest destiny in one way or another. But at some point, we need to realize that we have to live together and share our resources, all of them. As we crowd ourselves into bigger and denser metropolitan environments, the libertarian ideals that got us there, will not sustain us now that we've arrived with more an more people crowding in behind us. Maybe we need to look and see how other folks around the globe are dealing with that transition and learn from them. And guess what? They have better universal health care than what we are about to offer our own people.

At this point, I will return to my cynicism and say that whatever finally gets passed in the Senate will be so whittled down that it will not solve our health care problem. Obama needs a victory, any victory, and this bill will be just that: a political victory. It will be universal health care in name only and everybody will go home and move onto other thoughts. Kind of sad really, because in a few years when this universal health care becomes to expensive and unsustainable (like that's going to be a surprise!), it will be the right that will be saying: see we told you this wasn't going to work - when they were the ones who hobbled it in the first place (mostly Republicans and a few closet Republicans called Blue Dogs). It's even more ironic that most of them call themselves good Christians, too.

[E-Stat]

Maybe it's time we American realize that we actually should overpay so that others who can't pay don't have to.

We already do. If you are a physician, then you are in the top 10% of taxpayers who contribute 70% of the tax revenue. Nearly half of taxpayers contribute zilch.

As we crowd ourselves into bigger and denser metropolitan environments, the libertarian ideals that got us there, will not sustain us now that we've arrived with more an more people crowding in behind us.

Speak for yourself. That's one of the reasons I live on an acre and a half in a small college town.

... it will not solve our health care problem.

The current proposals will never address the systemic problems that constitute much of the problem - poor discretionary choices made by folks. The town hall meeting that ABC hosted with the President flashed some factoids about the issue. Fully half of our expenses relate to preventable conditions relating to smoking and obesity.

It's even more ironic that most of them call themselves good Christians, too.

Good Christians care for folks by encouraging them to make good decisions and support them when they choose to help themselves. Good Christians don't encourage further dependence upon making poor life choices.

rw

[Feanor]

....
Good Christians care for folks by encouraging them to make good decisions and support them when they choose to help themselves. Good Christians don't encourage further dependence upon making poor life choices.

rw

Listen to yourself, 'Stat. Same stale, old, hypocritical, Pharisiac conservative crap about self-reliance and personal responsibility.

The "poor life choice" Americans are making is to live with healthcare system that is at best no better than that of most other developed nations and a lot more expensive.

[E-Stat]

Listen to yourself, 'Stat. Same stale, old, hypocritical, Pharisiac conservative crap about self-reliance and personal responsibility.

Please explain the hypocrisy of expecting others to make good choices that require precious little in the way of intelligence. Do you honestly think that smokers have not heard of emphysema and cancer? I ran a half-marathon last weekend.

Do you find good judgment to be a vice? Or do you think its ok to do just WTF you want without a single care as to the consequences? Are you serious?

rw

[dean_martin]

Please explain the hypocrisy of expecting others to make good choices that require precious little in the way of intelligence. Do you honestly think that smokers have not heard of emphysema and cancer? I ran a half-marathon last weekend.

Do you find good judgment to be a vice? Or do you think its ok to do just WTF you want without a single care as to the consequences? Are you serious?

rw

Wow, I thought good Christians feed the hungry, welcome strangers, clothe the naked, and visit the sick and imprisoned. It's certainly easier to say "get a job" or "you did that to yourself" or stand on the sideline and either applaud or condemn the choices of others.

If you want to talk about sensible human behavior, that's one thing, but bringing up what "good Christians" do or don't do opens a different can of worms.

[Feanor]

Wow, I thought good Christians feed the hungry, welcome strangers, clothe the naked, and visit the sick and imprisoned. It's certainly easier to say "get a job" or "you did that to yourself" or stand on the sideline and either applaud or condemn the choices of others.

If you want to talk about sensible human behavior, that's one thing, but bringing up what "good Christians" do or don't do opens a different can of worms.

Christian do, but Pharisees don't. The just like the New Testiment Pharisees, so many Christian conservatives self-righteously proclaim, "Thank you God that I am not as other men". Jesus condemned the Pharisees as hypocrits; where he here today, he'd do the same for the Christian Right, (an oxymoron, by the way).

[E-Stat]

Wow, I thought good Christians feed the hungry, welcome strangers, clothe the naked, and visit the sick and imprisoned. It's certainly easier to say "get a job" or "you did that to yourself" or stand on the sideline and either applaud or condemn the choices of others.

Wherever did you get that? The topic on which I commented is smoking and obesity. Don't spend your money on tobacco. Don't overeat. Take a walk. Exercise. What does any of that have to do with getting a job?

If you want to talk about sensible human behavior, that's one thing, but bringing up what "good Christians" do or don't do opens a different can of worms.

Look again at post 404 to find the source of who brought up Christians.

rw

[Feanor]

Please explain the hypocrisy of expecting others to make good choices that require precious little in the way of intelligence. Do you honestly think that smokers have not heard of emphysema and cancer? I ran a half-marathon last weekend.

Do you find good judgment to be a vice? Or do you think its ok to do just WTF you want without a single care as to the consequences? Are you serious?

rw

Were it strictly up to me, even here in Canada, I would consider charging a premium to smokers and possibly others such as the obese, that would consist of difference in cost for them versus others who better life-style choices. Like I said to Bobsticks, (where is he?), I believe in equality of social responsibility. But the fact that there are so many self-abusers shouldn't be used road-block progress on the healthcare issues.

There is the other matter: equating self-reliance with Christian virtue; that is a spurious connection. Worse, suggesting that it is Christian to not help people because they lack self-reliance and personal responsibility is totally wrong. It is "Pharisaic", as I said, or anti-Christian if you'd rather put it that way.

[E-Stat]

Worse, suggesting that it is Christian to not help people because they lack self-reliance and personal responsibility is totally wrong. It is "Pharisaic", as I said, or anti-Christian if you'd rather put it that way.

You missed the context of my comment. Nightflier says that objections to the completely whacked, impractical, expensive non-solution to our problem is "even more ironic that most of them call themselves good Christians, too. "

It has nothing to do with being a bad Christian. Christians help folks today without endorsing such a cluster of a plan.

rw