Why not Universal Healthcare?

[nightflier]

Well Markw, you can rest safe, it doesn't look like he's going to terminate his account any time soon. But you two have so much in common, it's a neverending suspense to see who wins the crown that day. Hint: today's not your day.

[poppachubby]

I'm going to chime in and say that as American's, you obviously have plenty to work out over this issue. The thing that I find humourous is that somehow this issue is attached to party lines, ie left/right.

In Canada as I'm sure you are aware, we all expect "universal" healthcare in spite of left or right. Conservative and Liberal are all the same on the issue, it's a fundamental right that we all believe in. All this business of "socialism" and such is total nonsense.

It's quite simple, Democrat or Republican, If your arm falls off, wouldn't you like to know that you have help available to you?

That's all I have to say really, slice it and dice it how you will...

[markw]

Well Markw, you can rest safe, it doesn't look like he's going to terminate his account any time soon. But you two have so much in common, it's a neverending suspense to see who wins the crown that day. Hint: today's not your day.

And, I'm sure that as long as you're here constipation won't be a problem. You three did a cute little three-way circle jerk the other day that I/we can't wait for another performance.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

And, I'm sure that as long as you're here constipation won't be a problem. You three did a cute little three-way circle jerk the other day that I/we can't wait for another performance.

Oh brother.......Surely with all of the dogmatic outbursts you have had you could could better than this....surely.

[markw]

Oh brother.......Surely with all of the dogmatic outbursts you have had you could could better than this....surely.

Your three-man tag team back ther pretty well summed up where this thread was headed all along.
The really funny thing is that I predicted it well over two hundred posts prior. ...and you three just proved me correct!

[3LB]

In Canada as I'm sure you are aware, we all expect "universal" healthcare in spite of left or right. Conservative and Liberal are all the same on the issue, it's a fundamental right that we all believe in. All this business of "socialism" and such is total nonsense.

Thing is, there are already mechanisms in place by which people receive treatment they need. Most states have laws preventing anyone be turned away from emergency care based on ability to pay, as has already been pointed out. There are a couple of ways one can qualify for state healthcare that I know of (one example I listed about 10 pages ago) but the impetus is on the individual to pursue and obtain such care (same with foodstamps and other state or federal subsitance), rather than it being a birthright.

[E-Stat]

All this business of "socialism" and such is total nonsense.

Were you required under penalty of law to purchase your own health insurance when you left home?

rw

[E-Stat]

The theme of universal health care should be cost cutting (as you said it is rising exponentialy), and if that is not the goal, then why bother.

Good point. The Safeway Company has a means of promoting good health practices by providing lower health care rates to those for not smoking and not being overweight (two huge underlying causes behind massive health care costs). On NPR's Morning Edition, there was a discussion of that just this morning. I was amazed to hear criticism of the plan:

"It is a back door way of separating those who are healthy...It discriminates"

Hmmm. Isn't that the way auto and life insurance work today? Those who make poor driving choices (and incur higher expenses) are charged higher premiums. What's the difference?

"It will be intrusive for employers to have access to intimate details of your health records".

Nope. It is based simply upon whether or not you smoke and your BMI - body mass index which can be calculated from your height and weight. And proven to relate to health issues. One can easily guess anyone's height and weight simply by looking at someone else. There's no hiding those characteristics.

Anyone against promoting good health practices?

NPR Story

rw

[kexodusc]

Were you required under penalty of law to purchase your own health insurance when you left home?

There's actually no purchase involved at all.

[E-Stat]

There's actually no purchase involved at all.

Perhaps you didn't hear Obama's nationally televised speech and proposal:

"And that's why under my plan, individuals will be required to carry basic health insurance -- just as most states require you to carry auto insurance. "

Required. By penalty of law. "Carry" is a euphemism for "buy".

rw

[kexodusc]

Good point. The Safeway Company has a means of promoting good health practices by providing lower health care rates to those for not smoking and not being overweight (two huge underlying causes behind massive health care costs). On NPR's Morning Edition, there was a discussion of that just this morning. I was amazed to hear criticism of the plan:

"It is a back door way of separating those who are healthy...It discriminates"

Hmmm. Isn't that the way auto and life insurance work today? Those who make poor driving choices (and incur higher expenses) are charged higher premiums. What's the difference?

"It will be intrusive for employers to have access to intimate details of your health records".

Nope. It is based simply upon whether or not you smoke and your BMI - body mass index which can be calculated from your height and weight. And proven to relate to health issues. One can easily guess anyone's height and weight simply by looking at someone else. There's no hiding those characteristics.

Anyone against promoting good health practices?

NPR Story

rw

Operative words being "good" practices....I sure hope the clumsy BMI isn't used...Adrian Peterson would be penalized for being "overweight"...the guy has 6% body fat.

[kexodusc]

Perhaps you didn't hear Obama's nationally televised speech and proposal:

"And that's why under my plan, individuals will be required to carry basic health insurance -- just as most states require you to carry auto insurance. "

Required. By penalty of law.

rw

Sorry, your question was directed at a Canadian and I construted it literally...did he have to purchase insurance...no he didn't...

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Your three-man tag team back ther pretty well summed up where this thread was headed all along.
The really funny thing is that I predicted it well over two hundred posts prior. ...and you three just proved me correct!

Mark, self delusional proclamations are not a valid way of declaring a winner when winning is not the desirable end result.

The only thing you have really won is the title of the most dogmatic and unstable person to contribute to this thread. Here is your trophy, and I am sure it will be good company next to the most willing to lash out paranoid individual trophy you won previously.

[E-Stat]

.Adrian Peterson would be penalized for being "overweight"...the guy has 6% body fat.

You are incorrect on both fronts. Safeway does use BMI and Peterson's 28.6 value falls below the 30 threshold. He would get the discount so long as he doesn't smoke.

rw

[E-Stat]

Sorry, your question was directed at a Canadian and I construted it literally...did he have to purchase insurance...no he didn't...

That goes to the heart of the socialism comment of his I quoted. Governmental control dictating required health insurance.

rw

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Nope. It is based simply upon whether or not you smoke and your BMI - body mass index which can be calculated from your height and weight. And proven to relate to health issues. One can easily guess anyone's height and weight simply by looking at someone else. There's no hiding those characteristics.

Anyone against promoting good health practices?

NPR Story

rw

Unfortunately BMI is not going to tell you if someone has breast cancer or some other genetic disease.

If you don't smoke at work, then how would the employer know you smoke? They would have to gain access to your medical records, and that is a no no to me. I have seen what a company does when they are armed with an employees health records. No thanks.

I don't smoke, and my last BMI showed 5%. I have lupus though, and though I am generally very healthy, I would be penalized under Safeway's plan. I heard the NPR segment, and I didn't walk away quite as comforted as you did from Safeway's approach. Plus, you have to also take into consideration the valid complaints that Safeway employees have stated as well on this system. For us lean non smoking types with other issues this is no panacea.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

That goes to the heart of the socialism comment of his I quoted. Governmental control dictating required health insurance.

rw

They are not requiring it as they allow you to opt out for a price. Not quite socialism as it has no such trigger.

[kexodusc]

You are incorrect on both fronts. Safeway does use BMI and Peterson's 28.6 value falls below the 30 threshold. He would get the discount so long as he doesn't smoke.

rw

No I'm quite correct...
Unless private insurance companies are now more knowledgeable than the American Medical Association on health matters.
25 is the threshold for men.

Sources: http://books.google.com/books?id=4iS...age&q=&f=false

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/no-index...ma/13653.shtml

If we let insurance companies tell us what is and isn't good health...

You've actually helped make my point for me...the 25 is probably too low anyway, which re-enforces my point about its clumsiness.

[poppachubby]

Were you required under penalty of law to purchase your own health insurance when you left home?

rw

Sorry, this is a socialist ideal? I was speaking about the concept fundamentally. It appears to be a left and right issue for you guys. E-Stat, I'm sure much of what is being proposed stinks of all types of political agenda.

[kexodusc]

That goes to the heart of the socialism comment of his I quoted. Governmental control dictating required health insurance.

rw

Kinda like they dictate everyone pay for military and police protection.

I'd like to live in the mid-west and opt-out of paying for military protection.

[E-Stat]

If you don't smoke at work, then how would the employer know you smoke?

The existing Safeway plan does not check with medical records. It is on the honor system. Folks who smoke are not hard to identify.

I don't smoke, and my last BMI showed 5%.

BMI is an index of height and weight, not a percent. You might google the topic and enter your values to find your index. Mine is 24.5.

Plus, you have to also take into consideration the valid complaints that Safeway employees have stated as well on this system.

What were those?

rw

[ForeverAutumn]

That goes to the heart of the socialism comment of his I quoted. Governmental control dictating required health insurance.

rw

This is where I think we hit a philosophical difference. Canadians don't see this as the Government dictating required health insurance. We see it as the right to the same medical care for every Canadian regardless of social class. It's really more of a human rights issue than a socialist issue.

And, even though the system is not perfect, I don't know of any Canadian who would give it up entirely.

[E-Stat]

Kinda like they dictate everyone pay for military and police protection..

Only those who pay income taxes cover those. That would be only half the population.

rw

[kexodusc]

Only those who pay income taxes cover those. That would be only half the population.

rw

Really? So not 1 red cent collected via a consumption tax at any level of government has ever been allocated to either budget?

[poppachubby]

This is where I think we hit a philosophical difference. Canadians don't see this as the Government dictating required health insurance. We see it as the right to the same medical care for every Canadian regardless of social class. It's really more of a human rights issue than a socialist issue.

Thank You FA!! That's all I was trying to say!! I think my comment sounded more like big business democracy than socialism anyhow, if it has to be analyzed that far. Anyhow, I just wanted to point out a quirky difference. You guys are doing a great job at arguing minutae points without a silly Canadian around...back to the igloo I go!