Well, so much for our credibility...

[karl k]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/

as a nation that is all moral and ready to do "the right thing"! This reminds me of a conversation we had awhile back about image and credibility...

Syria, you're next!!

Boys, I think your "right thing to do" is about to fall apart big time. Ya, I know... it's not indicative of our military. Well, where did these people come from anyway? How did the military fail to see them as potential trouble makers? How many others are there that haven't been caught? Bush says they will be held accountable... that they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent. I wonder by who's law? Iraqis? Civilian law or military? Why wouldn't the commander of the 800th be held as accountable as the offenders? Isn't she suppose to be on top of things?

How are we suppose to make the world a better place if we can't convince the world we are better people? Keep your eye's on this one to see if the punishment fits the crime and justice is served.

BTW...

WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKIN' TAKING VIDEO OF IT ANYWAY???!!!

[JSE]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/

as a nation that is all moral and ready to do "the right thing"! This reminds me of a conversation we had awhile back about image and credibility...

Syria, you're next!!

Boys, I think your "right thing to do" is about to fall apart big time. Ya, I know... it's not indicative of our military. Well, where did these people come from anyway? How did the military fail to see them as potential trouble makers? How many others are there that haven't been caught? Bush says they will be held accountable... that they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent. I wonder by who's law? Iraqis? Civilian law or military? Why wouldn't the commander of the 800th be held as accountable as the offenders? Isn't she suppose to be on top of things?

How are we suppose to make the world a better place if we can't convince the world we are better people? Keep your eye's on this one to see if the punishment fits the crime and justice is served.

BTW...

WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKIN' TAKING VIDEO OF IT ANYWAY???!!!

After having the chance to let this issue settle in for while with me, I can honestly say that I am not that turned off by it. I understand and feel that it was 100% wrong for the soldiers to take part in this it should not have happened at all. The Soldier's should be punished and they should be kicked out of the militray. I also understand that the US does not need bad publicity right now.

BUT, I don't really feel that bad about it. Especially after seeing our soldier's bodies torn apart and hung from bridges. In comparison, was what we did to these prisoners that bad? I have seen Fraternity hazing far worse than this.

Again, in regard to US image in the Middle East? Big Big Ooops! In regards to the actual treatment of these prisoners? People need to get over it. Far worse has been done and will continue to be done. That's reality and that's the world we live in. To think otherwise, we are just kidding ourselves. I'm not saying it's right, but I am not going to loose any sleep over it.

JSE

[karl k]

BUT, I don't really feel that bad about it. Especially after seeing our soldier's bodies torn apart and hung from bridges. In comparison, was what we did to these prisoners that bad? I have seen Fraternity hazing far worse than this.

JSE

Did the soldiers live through the experience? Were they alive durring the experience? Are the Iraqi people used to seeing fraternity hazing? Again, if we are to make everyone believe we are there to help and not only for our own benefit, image is a biggie. If we want to continue to ask the world for permission and assistance everytime we do this, we better get it together and do it right. If we don't care about the rest of the world and what they think, then we better be prepared for a long and bumpy ride.

Again, in regard to US image in the Middle East? Big Big Ooops! In regards to the actual treatment of these prisoners? People need to get over it. Far worse has been done and will continue to be done. That's reality and that's the world we live in. To think otherwise, we are just kidding ourselves. I'm not saying it's right, but I am not going to loose any sleep over it.

JSE

What do you think about bringing those responsible up on charges of committing crimes against humanity? Would that be too much? What punishment do you think is appropriate(if any) in addition to loosing their jobs? What would they get in a civil court if this happened in a dark field somewhere in Nebraska?

And no, I'm not loosing any sleep either but this re-enforces my position on whether we deserve, in part or whole, the treatment we get from the rest of the world. Remember, we are always under the microscope, and our actions determine others perceiption of us.

Sleep tite!

[JSE]

"Did the soldiers live through the experience? Were they alive durring the experience? Are the Iraqi people used to seeing fraternity hazing? Again, if we are to make everyone believe we are there to help and not only for our own benefit, image is a biggie. If we want to continue to ask the world for permission and assistance everytime we do this, we better get it together and do it right. If we don't care about the rest of the world and what they think, then we better be prepared for a long and bumpy ride."

I think the countries in the Middle East need to live by the same advise they gave us after 9/11. Many of these countries pleeding the case to us that we the US should not negatively judge them based on a few bad seeds. Will that happen, probably not.

"What do you think about bringing those responsible up on charges of committing crimes against humanity? Would that be too much? What punishment do you think is appropriate(if any) in addition to loosing their jobs? What would they get in a civil court if this happened in a dark field somewhere in Nebraska?"

I think they should be Court-martialed (sp?). But, I really don't think it should go further than that. Plus, we don't have all the facts in yet. I've also heard a few things about possible murders. If that turn out to be true, then they should me punished accordingly. But that's not really clear yet. In terms of what we know, If this did happen here in the US, I don't think they would get much of a punishment. Maybe probation and community service. I doubt they would do any time.

One thing I do know is that Grand-Standing by members of congress and the senate is not going to help our image. I'm sick of all these people taking every opportunity they can to get media coverage for themselves. Who are they helping? Not our country! Like it or not, right or wrong, we need to casually sweep this under the rug in terms of world news coverage. Let's deal with this internally, not on the front page of the "World Newpapers".

JSE

[jeskibuff]

where did these people come from anyway? How did the military fail to see them as potential trouble makers? How many others are there that haven't been caught? ...How are we suppose to make the world a better place if we can't convince the world we are better people?

Try as hard as we might, we can't turn our soldiers into robots. They each have a mind of their own and we can't force them to do EXACTLY the right thing 100% of the time. To capitalize on this situation is just a propagandist's dream. They want to label America as reprehensible; no better than Saddam, but that charge is ridiculous. Yes, this went on, but no, it is NOT indicative of widespread abuse. If these soldiers were "forced" to obey orders against their will, why do the pictures show they were having such a grand time of it? They obviously had little problem with treating the prisoners as less than human.

We can't POSSIBLY ensure that every one of the tens of thousands of soldiers will do the right thing while over there. Didn't one of them explode a grenade, killing and maiming officers while stationed in Kuwait? Didn't we have Muslim chaplains smuggling Al-Qaeda messages at Guantamano? I'm sure there are soldiers who pointed their guns at civilians, KNOWING they were innocent, yet still pulled the trigger. I'm not justifying such behavior, just seeing the reality of the situation. YOU CAN'T FORCE people to do the right thing all the time, no matter how hard you train them, especially in a war situation, but you have to try as hard as you can to make them realize the consequences. In this case, other soldiers may die because of these pictures.

We may not be able to convince the world we are better people, as all we can do is hope that they can see it. Many understand that action IS being taken against these soldiers, that this is NOT the norm. Saddam tortured and killed people for decades, but that didn't seem to have the outrage that this incident has caused. Still, some will use it as propaganda to forward their agenda. Those are the insurgents, Islamic hardliners, terrorists and even our own liberal Americans like those who hang out in DemocraticUnderground.

[oakley#36]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/

as a nation that is all moral and ready to do "the right thing"! This reminds me of a conversation we had awhile back about image and credibility...

Syria, you're next!!

Boys, I think your "right thing to do" is about to fall apart big time. Ya, I know... it's not indicative of our military. Well, where did these people come from anyway? How did the military fail to see them as potential trouble makers? How many others are there that haven't been caught? Bush says they will be held accountable... that they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent. I wonder by who's law? Iraqis? Civilian law or military? Why wouldn't the commander of the 800th be held as accountable as the offenders? Isn't she suppose to be on top of things?

How are we suppose to make the world a better place if we can't convince the world we are better people? Keep your eye's on this one to see if the punishment fits the crime and justice is served.

BTW...

WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKIN' TAKING VIDEO OF IT ANYWAY???!!!

THEY WILL BLAME IT ON SOME 18YR. OLD TROOP, INSTEAD OF THE PEOPLE WHO KNEW THIS TYPE OF BEHAVIOR WOULD UPSET THESE IRAQI MEN! I'M GOING TO PREDICT A RESIGNING OF THEIR POST W/O ANY PUNISHMENT! WANNA BET!

[Chris]

Hey oakley#36, can you turn off your Caps Lock....

And my opinion on the subject is - I don't think that it's worth all the attention it's receiving. Yeah, maybe it's a little embarrassing, but it's war people. It's probably a combination of a few things... extreme measures used by interrogators, insufficient training, and lack of supervision. I'm not so sure it was just a few soldiers having fun. I've talked with some friends of mine and they believed that the soldiers were trying to humiliate and de-humanize some of the terrorist captives in order to get information (which shouldn't be all that surprising given the current situation over there). The photos that were published were probably used for scare tactics against other inmates. Though it doesn't sound like it should scare anyone that much, it's said to be extremely degrading and culturally offensive to be shown naked with other men in the Arab culture. Sure, it looks bad since the photos got out, but it was done to try and get information about future terrorist acts. Not that it totally justifies that type of treatment of human beings, but take a look at who we're dealing with - the retaliation to this was to cut off a live man's head. Nobody really wants to know what goes on in military interrogating rooms - it's all apart of war. Let's just hope our men are abiding by the laws of the Geneva Convention (even though from what I hear, terrorists are not afforded the same rights as POWs). We can't really afford any more embarrassments like this.

My question is, how in the hell did these get published? I'm surprised that they made it to print.

[JSE]

Hey oakley#36, can you turn off your Caps Lock....

And my opinion on the subject is - I don't think that it's worth all the attention it's receiving. Yeah, maybe it's a little embarrassing, but it's war people. It's probably a combination of a few things... extreme measures used by interrogators, insufficient training, and lack of supervision. I'm not so sure it was just a few soldiers having fun. I've talked with some friends of mine and they believed that the soldiers were trying to humiliate and de-humanize some of the terrorist captives in order to get information (which shouldn't be all that surprising given the current situation over there). The photos that were published were probably used for scare tactics against other inmates. Though it doesn't sound like it should scare anyone that much, it's said to be extremely degrading and culturally offensive to be shown naked with other men in the Arab culture. Sure, it looks bad since the photos got out, but it was done to try and get information about future terrorist acts. Not that it totally justifies that type of treatment of human beings, but take a look at who we're dealing with - the retaliation to this was to cut off a live man's head. Nobody really wants to know what goes on in military interrogating rooms - it's all apart of war. Let's just hope our men are abiding by the laws of the Geneva Convention (even though from what I hear, terrorists are not afforded the same rights as POWs). We can't really afford any more embarrassments like this.

My question is, how in the hell did these get published? I'm surprised that they made it to print.

Regardless of how anyone feels on this subject, whoever was responsible for letting those photos out should be punished severely. What an idiot or idiots. There is NO and I mean NO FREAKING reason a camera should even be allowed within prison walls.

JSE

[karl k]

Hey oakley#36, can you turn off your Caps Lock....

And my opinion on the subject is - I don't think that it's worth all the attention it's receiving. Yeah, maybe it's a little embarrassing, but it's war people. It's probably a combination of a few things... extreme measures used by interrogators, insufficient training, and lack of supervision. I'm not so sure it was just a few soldiers having fun. I've talked with some friends of mine and they believed that the soldiers were trying to humiliate and de-humanize some of the terrorist captives in order to get information (which shouldn't be all that surprising given the current situation over there). The photos that were published were probably used for scare tactics against other inmates. Though it doesn't sound like it should scare anyone that much, it's said to be extremely degrading and culturally offensive to be shown naked with other men in the Arab culture. Sure, it looks bad since the photos got out, but it was done to try and get information about future terrorist acts. Not that it totally justifies that type of treatment of human beings, but take a look at who we're dealing with - the retaliation to this was to cut off a live man's head. Nobody really wants to know what goes on in military interrogating rooms - it's all apart of war. Let's just hope our men are abiding by the laws of the Geneva Convention (even though from what I hear, terrorists are not afforded the same rights as POWs). We can't really afford any more embarrassments like this.

My question is, how in the hell did these get published? I'm surprised that they made it to print.

And no, I'm not a sadist either! It is enlightening to know how our tax dollars are spent and whether we are getting our money's worth. More over, I'd like to know if the tactics were successfull or not. I would have thought the lot of prisoners would have been prepped in a more scientific manner... truth serum for instance. A little sodium pentethol use to go a long ways! If your going to humiliate a person into telling the truth, why did the American military have to be in the picture? It could have been done w/o our military seeming to enjoy themselves!