The time has come boys and girls ...

[trollgirl]

... for us to demand that the stupid and inane Electoral College be abolished. If it ever had a useful purpose (which I've yet to be convinced that it ever did), that time was at least 10,000 years ago - and not applicable today.

What it has become in this modern day and age, is simply a "tool" for the manipulation of a presidential election, and is thus un-democratic and un-American and un-sound and un-reasonable. It serves no useful purpose whatsoever. Let's get rid of it.

I'm reminded of that geezer in Star Wars, episode 4, who said "The last vestiges of the old Republic have been swept away!" In spite of Dubya constantly prattling that our country is a democracy (democrazy), our country is a REPUBLIC, even though some are trying to transition it into an empire. The Electoral College is one of those vestiges.

Laz

[tugmcmartin]

Boy, didn't we already beat this horse about a year ago? Maybe more?

For a long time i was against the electoral college, basically because i didn't understand what its purpose was. I remember last time we discussed this i posted a link to a rather lengthy article outlining the pros and cons of the system. Was a very good and very educational read for me and basically pushed me to the pro-college camp. A couple of folks have already pointed out some of the reasons we have it. The foremost is that despite what most people believe, we are not a democracy... the US is a Republic, made up of states that all need to have their interests taken into account. That is the reason for the electoral college. Remember, we are the United STATES of America... not the United PEOPLE of America.

T-

[piece-it pete]

Boy, didn't we already beat this horse about a year ago? Maybe more?

For a long time i was against the electoral college, basically because i didn't understand what its purpose was. I remember last time we discussed this i posted a link to a rather lengthy article outlining the pros and cons of the system. Was a very good and very educational read for me and basically pushed me to the pro-college camp. A couple of folks have already pointed out some of the reasons we have it. The foremost is that despite what most people believe, we are not a democracy... the US is a Republic, made up of states that all need to have their interests taken into account. That is the reason for the electoral college. Remember, we are the United STATES of America... not the United PEOPLE of America.

T-

Dang, our collective memory's in the dumpster.

And wow you're right about one thing: we are definitely NOT united people - just ask NPR about Bush voters lol!

Laz, when you say the college is a vestige, do you mean the Republic is dead?

Pete

[Justlisten2]

I've got an idea, let the people vote for President!!! Voter turnout may even go up if people knew their vote actually counted. What a concept!

[JSE]

The people do and their vote does matter. Look at Florida.

JSE

[Justlisten2]

The people vote, but the electoral college picks the President. I meant that maybe the people could pick the President. A novel idea eh? The Electoral College was put in place because politicians didn't think the people had enough information to choose correctly. There was no TV or newspapers for many to see and read the issues back in the day. I beleive there is plenty of press coverage now to make the Electoral college go the way of the horse & buggy.

[JSE]

The people vote, but the electoral college picks the President. I meant that maybe the people could pick the President. A novel idea eh? The Electoral College was put in place because politicians didn't think the people had enough information to choose correctly. There was no TV or newspapers for many to see and read the issues back in the day. I beleive there is plenty of press coverage now to make the Electoral college go the way of the horse & buggy.

The electoral college does pick the President but it's based on the people's vote within each State. Remember, this is a Republic. The electoral college was put in place to give smaller states a say in the election. It was not because they thought people could not make an informed decision. It was to ensure a voice among ALL states. If there was no College, the majority of the States would never see a candidate or even have a say in who runs for President and who takes office. How is this fair? Again, like tugmcmartin said, this is a Republic not a democracy.

In regard to your point about there being enough press now to due away with the college. Sure, we all now how fair and unbaised the press is. That would work great as long as you are a liberal. How is that more fair than the electoral college? I don't think anyone wants Dan Rather and Peter Jennings picking our president.

Hell, let's just scrap the Constitution and start over. I am sure we can come up with something better. Politicians fight over putting a federal judge on the bench so I am sure they could rewrite the Constitution. Might take them 150 years, but I am sure they could do it.

JSE

[jack70]

What it has become in this modern day and age, is simply a "tool" for the manipulation of a presidential election, and is thus un-democratic and un-American and un-sound and un-reasonable. It serves no useful purpose whatsoever. Let's get rid of it.

I disagree on all 3 points. That last election is done (get over it). But elections have ALWAYS been "dirty" in some way or another... some more than others. Read Caro's first volume on how LBJ got into congress... just amazing history from the original sources. But you can study just about any period in the last 200 years and find similar crazy results.

Tug, I missed that discussion on the merits of the EC, but my own opinion is that it was instituted as just one of many compromises to get the constitution ratified by all parties involved. The smaller states simply didn't want to be marginalized (controlled) in a new national government. The one overriding aspect of our system of government was the new concept (truly revolutionary at the time) of protecting minority groups from the "tyranny of the majority" (which is what "true democracy" is... ie "mob rule"). It's the whole principal behind the Bill of Rights (although many amendments have been corrupted in real terms over the years). Farm/rural states simply wanted a buffer so that they wouldn't be at the mercy of the larger populations in the cities & big states, who theoretically could force them into a form of control (slavery) through congress. It's just one form of checks & balances that ensures a law has REAL broad support before it's approved. The concept of the Senate (unequal representation) is another such compromise that enabled all the states to compromise. It ain't perfect, but it's pretty good.

In todays modern world, the concept of 1-man/1-vote (direct vote) may seem more sensible, but I've heard some cogent arguments to keep it as it is. But I agree... it's a moot point -- the smaller states (who are a majority) will NEVER acquiesce to a constitutional amendment, which is the only way this will ever change.

The people vote, but the electoral college picks the President. I meant that maybe the people could pick the President. A novel idea eh? The Electoral College was put in place because politicians didn't think the people had enough information to choose correctly. There was no TV or newspapers for many to see and read the issues back in the day. I beleive there is plenty of press coverage now to make the Electoral college go the way of the horse & buggy.

That's true (I thought you were talking about a direct vote for the president), but that (archaic) aspect (electors) of the election process has just been a formality for a long time. It's pretty unlikely a single person (elector) could change an election, and less likely a group would do it.... but it's funny to think of the mess THAT would make. You think Fla raised a stink... LOL!

[trollgirl]

Dang, our collective memory's in the dumpster.

And wow you're right about one thing: we are definitely NOT united people - just ask NPR about Bush voters lol!

Laz, when you say the college is a vestige, do you mean the Republic is dead?

Pete

No, the Republic is not dead, but it may be like the old fellow on "Monty Python & the Holy Grail" who did not want to get on the cart because he was not quite dead yet. For some people, the Republic of Texas, as opposed to the State of Texas, is a going thing. That Republic even has its official/unofficlal President. There are different levels of understanding here, but with our liberties being restricted more and more, and with American sovreignty being compromised more and more by such things as UN membership and NAFTA, who the hell says anymore: "America first, without apology!"??
The trend seems clear to me...

Laz