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  1. #26
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    You guys would bail me out, right?

    RIGHT?

  2. #27
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    It's corruption, plain and simple -- there is so much subjectivity, even in the law. Agree with the poster above that legalization is best.

  3. #28
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    Be that as it may---and I don't necessarily disagree with you---the argument over process is instantly lost when people make statements like that. Of course, in this country, if the headline contains the word "prostitution" every fat, judgemental stay-at-home bible-mom and her henpecked husband scream, "Throw the book at her!!".

    The issue was, and remains, that you can't put unconvicted people in jail for indeterminate amounts of time---and unreasonable bail is de facto just that.

    Do we think she's a flight risk? She's got four school aged children. She's part of a community.

    Is she a danger to the generall public? What's she gonna do, bludgeon someone with a hooker?

    This is akin to the police spending five years wiretapping, reading the emails of and surveilling a nine year old operating a lemonade stand to determine whether or not a valid license is had---and the courts imposing a hundred thousand dollar bail for one citation of failure to obtain.
    There might be an argument that he amount of the bail should reflect the wealth of the charged person. I don't see that number of charges has much to do with it. High bail makes sense of the purpose of bail is to deter flight from justice. The other factor is the likelihood of flight for reasons of other than bail.

    So the kid with the lemonade stand would have small bail -- unless her dad was, say, Mitt Romney. Now Mitt probably wouldn't skip bail himself, but he could send his kid to a prep school in Switzerland.

  4. #29
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post
    You guys would bail me out, right?

    RIGHT?


    Of course we would bail you out. You are too delicate for prison.
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  5. #30
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    The judicial process is only part of the problem. It all begins with our representatives in office creating an ever increasing mountain of new laws to micro-manage every aspect of our lives. Many of these new laws are variations of laws that already exist and created to give them more power of arrest or increased punishment for the offender. In addition, the interpretation of these laws are left to the courts. To compound this problem is the fact that laws do not mention the reason these laws were created.

    For instance, prostitution is illegal, but why? Is it a moral issue, a health issue, or perhaps because it occurs without taxation. If it's a moral issue, then who's morals is it based on. If it's a health issue, then regulate it. If it's about taxation, then regulate it. As for what constitutes prostitution, it's easy to see that accepting money for sex is prostitution, but when people get married for money isn't that prostitution? Many years ago, before equal job opportunities, a woman’s only hope at the good life was marriage, but couldn't that be construed as prostitution? You can see the problem. As a side note, there are laws that make sex outside marriage illegal and laws that attempt to control what sex acts people engage in. The odd thing about all of this is there are no victims. The prostitute and the john engage in these acts willfully. So the question is, what crime has been committed? Why does it need to be controlled? What justification is there for spending tax payers money on police, jails, and courts to enforce these laws against people engaged in willful acts between two consenting adults? Has making laws against prostitution solved this problem or has it created more problems?

    As for secondary effects of these laws... So what would happen if prostitution were made legal? First off it would be regulated and taxed. The men and women engaged in this would be taken off the streets, improving the conditions within communities. Health concerns would be addressed, protecting both the woman and the men. The question to be asked is does criminalization of an act that has existed and will exist probably in perpetuity make any sense?

    The war on drugs is another issue that is mindless and has created more problems than it solved, but that is another issue.

    As for laws, there are so many and new ones being created every day that it is impossible for any person to know them. Without defining the reason for the creation of a new law and a description of the problem it is trying to solve, the courts makes a best guess at the intent of the bill and that in effect becomes the definition or scope of the law. Is there a solution for this? I think so. Perhaps every law needs an expiration date, say five years, after which it is removed from the books unless it is reviewed and re-enacted into law. Perhaps regulate the number of laws to what fits into a book of 500 pages (font 10). There can be different books for different situations. One book for the private citizen, one for people engaging in business, and so on. I realize that this sounds simple, but consider all the laws concerning murder. Wouldn't it be simpler to just say that if you murder another person you will be arrested and incarcerated? I think that “intent” is the determining factor in the punishment given. Anyway, by limiting the space in which laws can be written and setting time limits of their existence should keep our law makers busy enough to stop them from being so stupid. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to have a 500 page book with all the laws rather spend our lives not knowing what the laws are? We shouldn't have to pay a lawyer every time we have a question about the law. Our government should make access to the laws free and understandable to everyone.

    If I continue this will turn into a book, but keep in mind that this is simply a blog and cannot be construed as an entire representation of my thoughts.

  6. #31
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenSurprenant View Post
    The judicial process is only part of the problem. It all begins with our representatives in office creating an ever increasing mountain of new laws to micro-manage every aspect of our lives. Many of these new laws are variations of laws that already exist and created to give them more power of arrest or increased punishment for the offender. In addition, the interpretation of these laws are left to the courts. To compound this problem is the fact that laws do not mention the reason these laws were created.

    For instance, prostitution is illegal, but why?...
    The war on drugs is another issue that is mindless and has created more problems than it solved...
    Ah, come on. More laws is good for lawyers, right? What is the most common occupation among members of Congress? I rest my case.

  7. #32
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Steve, I'm not sure about the feasibility of having only 500 pages of laws but, other than that, I'm gonna guess that you're a very frustrated voter. You make way too much sense to be an enfranchised member of the American electoral process.
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  8. #33
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenSurprenant View Post
    The odd thing about all of this is there are no victims. The prostitute and the john engage in these acts willfully.
    I don't agree with this. It may be true in some cases, but I don't believe that all prostitutes do their job willfully. And while I agree that legalizing prostitution would solve many problems, there will always be an illegal underground for those unwillful situations.

    But Sticks specifically asked us to stay away from these issues so I won't go there. I just wanted to state my disagreement with your premise.

  9. #34
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    Nope. That's a really, really bad idea. Because of it's mobility the cart would fall under the same rules regulating the food trucks one sees in larger cities around the country. The truck/car and the cart would both have to be licensed specifically for that pupose. Further, they have to be inspected with the results posted. Pennsylvania is one of the states that requires documentation posted with a letter grade, so there's another violation.

    Autumn would have to go through a "Food Service Safety" or "Serve Safe" course and the accompanying tests therein.

    Failure to follow these rules could result in additional charges for each and every individual that took a sandwich---which would, of course, be in furtherance multiple counts of large-scale civil disobediance.

    Damn, that's gonna be hella bail and crippling fines. Can the homeless eat cardboard? That's just a littering fine...
    Who said that I was worried about any laws being broken. I just want to get the food to the people who need it in a way that sticks in the law makers faces.
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  10. #35
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael View Post
    Who said that I was worried about any laws being broken. I just want to get the food to the people who need it in a way that sticks in the law makers faces.
    Well, then you're right on track. I like the cut of your jib, GM.

    Lol, that's a pretty easy position to take though when it's Autumn that's gonna end up in shackles...
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  11. #36
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    Well, then you're right on track. I like the cut of your jib, GM.

    Lol, that's a pretty easy position to take though when it's Autumn that's gonna end up in shackles...
    Another dream come true.
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  12. #37
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post
    I don't agree with this. It may be true in some cases, but I don't believe that all prostitutes do their job willfully. And while I agree that legalizing prostitution would solve many problems, there will always be an illegal underground for those unwillful situations.

    But Sticks specifically asked us to stay away from these issues so I won't go there. I just wanted to state my disagreement with your premise.
    I agree with you that my ideas will not solve all the problems and that criminal elements will probably continue to exist, the question is whether or not it will have a more positive impact on society compared to how we deal with this situation in the present. To simply deny human nature and criminalize it is not act of a sound mind.

    As for Sticks, I'm not sure if I can agree since this is in the "Off Topics" forum. It seems that all the replies are reasonable and thoughtful, so I see nothing wrong with this topic. I realize that this is a huge departure from audio, but it's very interesting to see another side of the posters here. There are some very intelligent people here and I really enjoy their viewpoints on a multitude of subjects. The only time I would consider this particular forum as over-the-top is if it dominated audio review, which is hasn't.

    Anyway, thanks for your input as it is pertinent to the subject and a real concern. Perhaps if it were legal then people unwilling engaged in this might have an out from this way of life, as It would be open to the scrutiny of officials monitoring the business. It can't be worse than it is now.

    Besides, I don't understand... Isn't it Sticks who started this thread? I think his post is of grave concern to all people. It is only one example of the insanity that goes on in the legal system. His concern was the money spent on investigating Anna Gristina, and the amount of bail set for a class D felony. I can't directly respond to that except to say that it is a reflection of the mentality of our judges and lawyers. The court system is rife with similar situations which boggle the mind.

    My girl friends two sons are lawyers and one of them got out of the business based on his moral persuasions and the other will criticize the system in a heart beat saying that the criminal judicial system is a travesty in the making and the civil courts are a total crap shoot. Don't think for a minute that many of these lawyers and judges are blind to inconsistencies and faults of the legal system. They know that it's flawed but they do their job, regardless of whether it makes sense or not, because they believe that it is what they're supposed to do.

    I just don't know what to say about this except to say it is out of my control.
    Last edited by StevenSurprenant; 03-20-2012 at 09:38 AM.

  13. #38
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenSurprenant View Post
    As for Sticks, I'm not sure if I can agree since this is in the "Off Topics" forum. It seems that all the replies are reasonable and thoughtful, so I see nothing wrong with this topic...
    Hey Steve, no big deal. When I originally started the thread I wanted it to be a discussion of eroding civil liberties and the complete lack of respect for the rule of law that our judicial and criminal justice system display. That discussion seems to have run its course so flail away my Quixotic friend...
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  14. #39
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    Hey Steve, no big deal. When I originally started the thread I wanted it to be a discussion of eroding civil liberties and the complete lack of respect for the rule of law that our judicial and criminal justice system display. That discussion seems to have run its course so flail away my Quixotic friend...

    Thanks, perhaps my reply was off subject, but I agree with you, in totality, about eroding civil liberties and the crimes of the courts against the people of this nation.

    New word for the day: Quixotic - (had to look that one up)

  15. #40
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Shall we talk a bit about justice not being served? Graham James was sentenced to only two years for the sexual abuse of Theo Fleury and Todd Holt. What a joke!

  16. #41
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    Probably a very strong warning..

    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    ...me understand this.

    Before'n y'all get up on yer high horses let me make this clear: this is not a query about the viability, legality, or any other aspect of prostitution. What I know about prostitution is that there are some that claim it a victimless crime but obviously there is a sex trade within this country that is rife with violence and oppression. This is not about that.

    This is about judicial process.

    Wtf is going on in Manhattan? After a five year investigation---yes, that's five years of tax payer money being spent on the investigative process---prosecutors have come up with a single D Felony charge against the "Millionare Madam" Anna Gristina.

    How on earth can a judge levy a two million dollar bail on a single D Felony? Where is the ACLU on this?

    Anyone?
    Approximately 20-25 years ago we had a "madame", Theresa Brown who had been running a brothel out of her home and she did it for very, very long time before getting arrested (in San Antonio, TX).

    During that time frame the local PD was really getting after the prostitution rings and were releasing names of the John's in the media. Well, when T.B. got arrested it was speculated that high ranking local politicians, PD, and high profile business men were on the list. In fact, a court order was issued prohibiting the release of the names! She got off easy on the charges and then left town.

    I am speculating that maybe the NY madame is threatening to release names of high profile people and the judge sent a warning to her with that hefty bail amount.
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  17. #42
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=StevenSurprenant;379457]The judicial process is only part of the problem. It all begins with our representatives in office creating an ever increasing mountain of new laws to micro-manage every aspect of our lives. Many of these new laws are variations of laws that already exist and created to give them more power of arrest or increased punishment for the offender. In addition, the interpretation of these laws are left to the courts. To compound this problem is the fact that laws do not mention the reason these laws were created. [QUOTE]

    Yes, though sometimes it's left not to the courts but to law enforcement officials. See HR347 :



    The anti-protest bill signed by Barack Obama is a quiet attack on free speech. - Slate Magazine



    "And that brings us to the real problem with the change to the old protest law. Instead of turning on a designated place, the protest ban turns on what persons and spaces are deemed to warrant Secret Service protection. It’s a perfect circle: The people who believe they are important enough to warrant protest can now shield themselves from protestors. No wonder the Occupy supporters are worried. In the spirit of “free speech zones,” this law creates another space in which protesters are free to be nowhere near the people they are protesting.

    Consider that more than 6,700 people have been arrested at Occupy events since last September. Thus, while these changes to the law are not the death of free speech, they aren’t as trivial as the administration would have you believe. Rather, they are part of an incremental and persistent effort by the government to keep demonstrators away from events involving those at the top of the political food chain. "
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

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