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  1. #1
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Sir T, this may interest you....

    The Pitbull ban here was, and still is, a very controversial law.

    Ban forces Dog Whisperer to leave pit bull behind
    By Maria Babbage, The Canadian Press

    TORONTO - There are some problems even the Dog Whisperer can't solve.

    Cesar Millan isn't allowed to bring his trusted sidekick, Junior, into Ontario the Liberal government banned pit bulls five years ago, saying the breed was too dangerous.

    "It was a very difficult decision," Attorney General Chris Bentley said Wednesday.

    "I mean, I have a dog myself. She's part of the family. But we heard many complaints from the people in the province. ... So we had to take steps."

    Millan, a celebrated canine trainer and host of the popular TV show "The Dog Whisperer," rehabilitates aggressive dogs often with Junior's help.

    He shouldn't be denied his right-hand companion as he crosses Canada for a speaking tour, New Democrat Cheri DiNovo argued Wednesday in an open letter.

    "So once again, a responsible owner is being discriminated against because of the physical appearance of his dog not the dog's behaviour, but his looks," she wrote.

    DiNovo even appealed to Bentley's office to make an exception for Junior, a three-year-old certified therapy dog that Millan adopted as a puppy.

    Ontario's ban only makes exceptions for pit bulls that participate in dog shows and flyball, a dog sport involving a race with hurdles and tennis balls.

    But Bentley wouldn't budge, saying Junior is not welcome in Ontario.

    "I really respect the work of Cesar Millan, the work that he does," he said.

    "You know why we brought in the pit bull legislation. It was to protect people and protect dogs protect other people's pets."

    The grey-and-white pit bull mix has accompanied the Dog Whisperer on all his Canadian shows except the ones in Ontario, said NDP spokeswoman Marion Nader.

    Millan even advertised Junior's participation in the tour, calling him an "ambassador" who brings "calm and balance" to dogs who need rehabilitation.

    Millan was concerned that Junior who often helps him calm aggressive dogs on his show would be seized by authorities if he brought him into the province, she said.

    After a member of Millan's staff contacted the Ministry of the Attorney General, an official wrote back, saying it couldn't provide any legal advice.

    "There have been numerous horrific incidents that have happened in Ontario and elsewhere, in which people have been killed or severely maimed by pit bulls," the letter states.

    "The government decided that the interests of public safety would be best served by restricting pit bulls under the Dog Owners' Liability Act (DOLA) to prevent more attacks and bites from this breed."

    The ban applies to breeds considered to be pit bulls, such as Staffordshire bull terriers, or any dog that looks like one of those breeds.

    Millan has often espoused his belief that dogs are not inherently dangerous, saying it's humans who often influence their behaviour.

    He even dedicated an episode of his television show to dispel myths about breeds that are considered to be particularly dangerous, showing some of the toughest cases he's encountered and how the dogs have turned over a new leaf.

  2. #2
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Bumber. I have known many pitbulls over the years and have found them to be very lovable. It's the owners who are dangerous.
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  3. #3
    Ajani
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    The problem is that some dogs (especially breeds I love) are more "dangerous" than others... An abused, psycho Chihuahua is not much of a threat to an adult human being, the same sadly, can't be said about a Rottweiler or German Shepherd... Yes, the real issue is the owners not being responsible, but how do you make them respsonsible?

    So some places have opted to ban 'dangerous' breeds... IMO, the only real solution is to require that all breeds (or at least the 'dangerous' ones) must go to training and/or the owner has a license to own a dangerous breed... Yeah, I know a lot of persons would hate that, but it prevents banning of breeds and helps to restore public safety...

  4. #4
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Bumber. I have known many pitbulls over the years and have found them to be very lovable. It's the owners who are dangerous.
    That's what many Pitbull owners were trying to get the gov't to understand. But there was a rash of attacks here a few years ago, some on very small children. I think that a couple of dogs were actually sentenced to euthenasia because they were so aggressive IIRC. The idea of this law had been bantered around for many years before ever getting to the point where it became a reality. I agree that it's bad dog owners. But I also think that some breeds are more prone to agression, just as some breeds are more prone to being hyper, or being less active.

    To ban Milan's dog from coming into the province to appear in a show when he is obviously not an aggressive dog is just silly IMO. The Attorney General who ruled not to allow the dog into the province says that he respects Milan's work. That's bull (pardon the pun). If he really respected Milan then he would understand that Junior isn't a threat to anyone.

  5. #5
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    IMO, the only real solution is to require that all breeds (or at least the 'dangerous' ones) must go to training and/or the owner has a license to own a dangerous breed... Yeah, I know a lot of persons would hate that, but it prevents banning of breeds and helps to restore public safety...
    I think that's a great solution, but in reality I'm not sure how you could enforce that. My city has a law that all dogs and cats must be licenced...even if they are indoor pets. I've never licenced my two cats and my vet has never mentioned it. If I had two German Sheppards that weren't licenced, who would know? On the other hand, if I were walking a pitbull every morning, anyone who saw me could turn me in. A full-out ban is easier to control and enforce.

  6. #6
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    I think that's a great solution, but in reality I'm not sure how you could enforce that. My city has a law that all dogs and cats must be licenced...even if they are indoor pets. I've never licenced my two cats and my vet has never mentioned it. If I had two German Sheppards that weren't licenced, who would know? On the other hand, if I were walking a pitbull every morning, anyone who saw me could turn me in. A full-out ban is easier to control and enforce.
    Enforcing a law is always a challenge... They'd have to treat it like having a license to carry a gun... So in the same way that if the police see me with a firearm, they'd request to see my firearm license, they'd request to see your dangerous animal license... So you couldn't just take your pitbull on a daily walk, without risking being caught by the police...

    Now, if you keep the animals locked up on your property, then it really doesn't matter that much whether you have a license, since the only person you endanger is yourself...

    Also, your neighbours would be able to tip off the police that you have a dangerous animal...

  7. #7
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Man this lets me down...

    With Cesar being my dog training coach, I really do know how he is feeling. Junior is a GREAT dog, one of the smartest and truly lovable and obedient dogs on this planet. My dog Pepper(another Pitbull/lab mix just like Junior) absolutely loves Junior.

    I really wish legislators would get more educated on the law they legislate. To ban a breed of dog just because of how bad owners have treated the breed is just plain wrong. It is the owners neglect that causes this violent behavior, nothing intrinsic within the breed. That goes for Throttler, shepherds, and pit bull(and pit bull mixes). I have worked with perhaps 200 pit bull dogs over the last 10 years, and I have yet to be attacked by a single one of them. All three of the mentioned breeds are very powerful dogs(not violent) and require a very firm hand and very good training. I say if a owner cannot provide this, they should be banned from owning the breed, not ban the breed itself.

    To those who do not think a little lap or toy dog cannot be dangerous, you are wrong. I have had to correct the behavior of breeds like the Cocker Spaniel and the poodle that have bitten children in the face multiple times, leaving scars the kids will live with for the rest of their lives. That may not kill them, but it does an emotional damage that cannot be measured.

    The best advice I can offer is to neuter all breeds that are perceived to be dangerous. This removes testosterone out of the equation which limits over-aggressive behavior. Combine that with good training and exercise and you will have the coolest, sweetest dog ever! That applies to all breeds, not just the powerful ones.
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  8. #8
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    To those who do not think a little lap or toy dog cannot be dangerous, you are wrong. I have had to correct the behavior of breeds like the Cocker Spaniel and the poodle that have bitten children in the face multiple times, leaving scars the kids will live with for the rest of their lives. That may not kill them, but it does an emotional damage that cannot be measured.
    That's a very good point... I hope my earlier post didn't give the impression that other breeds can't harm someone... Just that they aren't likely to be able to kill an ADULT, which is why people often ignore their vicious behavior..

    I actually think that ALL dogs should be trained...

  9. #9
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    The problem is that some dogs (especially breeds I love) are more "dangerous" than others... An abused, psycho Chihuahua is not much of a threat to an adult human being, the same sadly, can't be said about a Rottweiler or German Shepherd... Yes, the real issue is the owners not being responsible, but how do you make them respsonsible?
    If a neighbor or anyone makes a complaint based on aggressive behavior, investigate. If it is proved that owner neglect was the problem(and that can be easily determined) ban them from owning the breed. If an owner was faced with losing the dog before it kills somebody, they will do what is necessary to keep the dog balanced.

    So some places have opted to ban 'dangerous' breeds... IMO, the only real solution is to require that all breeds (or at least the 'dangerous' ones) must go to training and/or the owner has a license to own a dangerous breed... Yeah, I know a lot of persons would hate that, but it prevents banning of breeds and helps to restore public safety...
    This is an excellent solution, and I say that as an owner and trainer. If a person could not do this(it is so easy), then they should not be able to own the breed. I think I am going to suggest that at my next city council meeting before San Leandro bans powerful breeds. There are a lot of owner that walk their dogs improperly, and that is largely why they cannot control them. A dog that walks in front of his owner controls that owner, and will exhibit psychological issues that leads to dog violence(not behaviorally balanced).
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  10. #10
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    I think that's a great solution, but in reality I'm not sure how you could enforce that. My city has a law that all dogs and cats must be licenced...even if they are indoor pets. I've never licenced my two cats and my vet has never mentioned it. If I had two German Sheppards that weren't licenced, who would know? On the other hand, if I were walking a pitbull every morning, anyone who saw me could turn me in. A full-out ban is easier to control and enforce.
    Here is how you enforce it. You limit the places you can attain the breed(licensed breeders), and that breeder must offer a training program in order to sell or allow an adoption of that breed. Before that person can get their hands on the breed, you require them to take the training first, then they can get it. Once you are trained, you get a special little badge that attaches to the collar of the dog(that must be worn at all times) so law enforcement can ask to see your certification johnny(or Janet) on the spot. That badge could also be a chip implanted in the dogs skin so it can be scanned as well.

    Just puttin that out there.....
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  11. #11
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    The dog park where we belong will no longer accept Pits and Rotties as there have been too many instancies of attacks on other dogs. I love all dogs and have fostered Pits but Cesar is correct in calling them a "gladiator breed". It's so instictive for them to go for the throat in play with other dogs. My Golendoodle will cower to a Pit half his size.

  12. #12
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
    The dog park where we belong will no longer accept Pits and Rotties as there have been too many instancies of attacks on other dogs. I love all dogs and have fostered Pits but Cesar is correct in calling them a "gladiator breed". It's so instictive for them to go for the throat in play with other dogs. My Golendoodle will cower to a Pit half his size.
    Yes, these breds have been bred for aggression. Granted, good training can greatly mitigate the natural tendancy.

    But that's the other side of the problem: too many self-imagined machos buy these breds and actually foster rather than suppress aggressive tendancies in their dogs. This brings to mind the situation with guns and gun legislation: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people!" ...

  13. #13
    ISCET CET, FCC CTT, USITT Dual-500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    That's a very good point... I hope my earlier post didn't give the impression that other breeds can't harm someone... Just that they aren't likely to be able to kill an ADULT, which is why people often ignore their vicious behavior..

    I actually think that ALL dogs should be trained...
    Yes, the dogs should be trained. But where the emphasis needs to be placed is on the owner/handler of the dogs.

    Dog owners must be made responsible and held responsible.
    Last edited by Dual-500; 11-07-2010 at 11:39 AM.

  14. #14
    ISCET CET, FCC CTT, USITT Dual-500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Here is how you enforce it. You limit the places you can attain the breed(licensed breeders), and that breeder must offer a training program in order to sell or allow an adoption of that breed. Before that person can get their hands on the breed, you require them to take the training first, then they can get it. Once you are trained, you get a special little badge that attaches to the collar of the dog(that must be worn at all times) so law enforcement can ask to see your certification johnny(or Janet) on the spot. That badge could also be a chip implanted in the dogs skin so it can be scanned as well.

    Just puttin that out there.....
    Yes indeed - you are spot on. Where I train my G.Shep is at a state certified kennel in a bona-fide course.

    I've not worked with the numbers you have SirT, but have had personal dogs for the past 40 years - my favorite is the German Shepherd dog and I'm currently raising number 9.

    I've had many wonder G.Sheps over the years, 4 of which would be categorized as "Man Stoppers". I've used them in service as a security guard and working in a landscape mainetnance busines in the field guarding equipment as well as home protection.

    Never had a complaint, from neighbors or customers. Never any issues. But, I've always bought quality dogs and trained at reputable kennels and clubs.

    It's not about the dogs, it's about the owners. Dogs on chains, with padlocks around their necks, tethered dogs, unsocialized dogs can be extremely dangerous. Any dog should be properly socilaized - the powerful working breeds need professional guidance and capable handlers.

    There is no place in our society for "Pit Bull Mentality" and that applies to all working breeds of dogs.

    I treat Casey with the same mindset as my guns - he's not a toy and requires constant vigilence and respect and awarenes - just plain common sense.

  15. #15
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dual-500
    Yes, the dogs should be trained. But where the emphasis needs to be placed is on the owner/handler of the dogs.

    Dog owners must be made responsible and held responsible.
    Yeah, that was my original point... Owners should have a license to handle the dog... Which means they've gone through a proper dog handling/ownership course & (unless they are a professional trainer) the dog has gone to training...

  16. #16
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Yes, these breds have been bred for aggression. Granted, good training can greatly mitigate the natural tendancy.

    But that's the other side of the problem: too many self-imagined machos buy these breds and actually foster rather than suppress aggressive tendancies in their dogs. This brings to mind the situation with guns and gun legislation: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people!" ...
    That's always been the problem with Dogs and Guns... Too often it's the psychos who want to own a stockpile of guns or a dozen pitbulls...

    I get so annoyed every Sunday when I read the classified section of the newspaper and see "Pitbull pups for sale, from aggressive bloodlines"... Only an idiot would want a Pitbull from an "aggressive bloodline"... You want a balanced dog, not one that is likely to be a danger to you, your friends and family... Also, Pitbulls have never been legal in Jamaica, yet every Sunday they are the most common breed for sale... It has to do with the desire to own a bad @$$ dog... These same idiots then complain about how they had to "put the dog down" because it was too vicious... Really??? A dog from "aggressive bloodlines" was vicious??? How shocking...

  17. #17
    ISCET CET, FCC CTT, USITT Dual-500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Yeah, that was my original point... Owners should have a license to handle the dog... Which means they've gone through a proper dog handling/ownership course & (unless they are a professional trainer) the dog has gone to training...
    Not just the handler qualified though. It's as important to qualify the dogs at some level also. Qualify them for temperment and stability as well as a reasonable level of obedience and control. Easy to do.

    That would end the BS right then and there.

    Certify breeders, qualify handlers and qualify dogs.

    Please understand that for dogs and handlers there is a huge difference between training and qualification.

    Training is the path to qualification, and not any guarantee. Qualification is the proof that the training was properly done and effective. One can train forever and never achieve a level of qualification.

    And dog breed in the working class should be required to complete initial qualification and some scheduled re-qualification like annual or semi-annual temperment and obedience qualification.

    The dog pictured below, trained for 2 years. He started at 18 months old with 12 weeks of initial obedience, plus follow-on work in obedience to include hand signals. 3 months initial protection training at 6 days a week. Then another 18 months twice a week for advanced protection. He was essentially a police K-9 level dog. Due to a very unfortunate accident I was unable to qualify him with his Schutzhund degree. A fabulous dog, that lived home with my parents, sister and myself. A friend to neighbors, we used to play hide and seek with the younger kids - they would hide and Beau and I would find them and then I would hide and one of the neighbor kids would handle the dog and find me.

    Never an issue, never a bite, never a complaint from any of my 9 German Shepherds.

    Most police departments with K-9 programs send the dogs home and integrate them into the officers family, children and all. Hear of any police K-9's attacking family or neighbors? About as likely to happen as having an officer flip out and start shooting people. It just doesn't happen.

    Last edited by Dual-500; 11-07-2010 at 05:18 PM.

  18. #18
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    That's always been the problem with Dogs and Guns... Too often it's the psychos who want to own a stockpile of guns or a dozen pitbulls...
    I completely agree. Only it doesn't take a stockpile of guns or pack of dogs...it only takes one. We can talk about qualifying the dogs and making the owners purchase from registered breeders and force them into training programs, but all this does is create an underground market for these types of dogs.

    A responsible person is going to purchase a dog and train it anyhow. They aren't going to let aggressive dogs run off-leash where they can hurt other dogs and people. It's the irresponsible people who are going to purchase aggressive dogs, not train them, and put them in precarious situations. If they don't want to go to a breeder or go through training, they're going to find a dog through illegal means. The problem is, if I see someone walking a pitbull (or other similar breed), I don't know if it's been gained through the proper course and been through the proper training. It is only after it attacks my dog or child, that I can know if the dog is dangerous.

    That's why I think that a full ban is the best solution for this problem. I don't think that it's a fair solution. I don't. But I don't think that the alternatives mentioned here are viable, IMO.

  19. #19
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    Like SirT already posted. A clear and visible flag or other item can be attached to the leash or collar. Put a vest on the dog - whatever.

    There is a better solution out there to be had then banning breeds of dogs.

  20. #20
    ISCET CET, FCC CTT, USITT Dual-500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    I completely agree. Only it doesn't take a stockpile of guns or pack of dogs...it only takes one. We can talk about qualifying the dogs and making the owners purchase from registered breeders and force them into training programs, but all this does is create an underground market for these types of dogs.

    A responsible person is going to purchase a dog and train it anyhow. They aren't going to let aggressive dogs run off-leash where they can hurt other dogs and people. It's the irresponsible people who are going to purchase aggressive dogs, not train them, and put them in precarious situations. If they don't want to go to a breeder or go through training, they're going to find a dog through illegal means. The problem is, if I see someone walking a pitbull (or other similar breed), I don't know if it's been gained through the proper course and been through the proper training. It is only after it attacks my dog or child, that I can know if the dog is dangerous.

    That's why I think that a full ban is the best solution for this problem. I don't think that it's a fair solution. I don't. But I don't think that the alternatives mentioned here are viable, IMO.
    The black market is already out there for the dogs this is about. That's what Mr. Michael Vick got spanked for and the NFL clearly doesn't give a $h!t about. Homicide is illegal - fully banned - people get murdered every day. Driving under the influence is illegal - fully banned - but, every day.........you get my point.

    The type of control SirT suggested would net the best overall results.

  21. #21
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    Banning certain breeds across an entire province seems extreme, but I'd agree with banning them in a city if that city thought it best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 02audionoob
    Banning certain breeds across an entire province seems extreme, but I'd agree with banning them in a city if that city thought it best.
    City wide ban sounds good on paper. What about the unincorporated areas? The buffer zone around the city boundaries?

    I live within 5 miles of the west end of the DFW Metroplex and there are lots of strays around here. Strays are banned - against the law - leash laws exist here.

    Doesn't help a bit. Useful solutions need to be made at the state level and not based upon emotion but crafted using common sense.

    The strays are a threat to me and my dogs too. That's why I carry a 18" piece of 3/4" schedule 40 PVC and flashlight with me when I walk any of my dogs. I see many walkers and joggers as well as dog walkers carrying a handy "Walking Stick" along with them.

  23. #23
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dual-500
    City wide ban sounds good on paper. What about the unincorporated areas? The buffer zone around the city boundaries?

    I live within 5 miles of the west end of the DFW Metroplex and there are lots of strays around here. Strays are banned - against the law - leash laws exist here.

    Doesn't help a bit. Useful solutions need to be made at the state level and not based upon emotion but crafted using common sense.

    The strays are a threat to me and my dogs too. That's why I carry a 18" piece of 3/4" schedule 40 PVC and flashlight with me when I walk any of my dogs. I see many walkers and joggers as well as dog walkers carrying a handy "Walking Stick" along with them.
    I can tell you're passionate about this issue, but it doesn't change my mind any. The dogs are an issue that shouldn't be ignored. Here in the big city, the law could be enforced.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02audionoob
    I can tell you're passionate about this issue, but it doesn't change my mind any. The dogs are an issue that shouldn't be ignored. Here in the big city, the law could be enforced.
    And what "Big City" would that be? No strays there? Last I heard DFW was in the "Big City" league - it's in the top 10 largest markets in the US.

    Again I submit to you, the there are already "Bans" in this city (city ordinances) on the dog problems I frequently deal with and they do little or no good whatsoever.

    That's not passion or emotion - it's fact.

    How are your "Big City" bans on homicide working? Burglery? Robbery? DUI? Home Invasion?

  25. #25
    Retro Modernist 02audionoob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dual-500
    And what "Big City" would that be? No strays there? Last I heard DFW was in the "Big City" league - it's in the top 10 largest markets in the US.

    Again I submit to you, the there are already "Bans" in this city (city ordinances) on the dog problems I frequently deal with and they do little or no good whatsoever.

    That's not passion or emotion - it's fact.

    How are your "Big City" bans on homicide working? Burglery? Robbery? DUI? Home Invasion?
    I don't know why you're so aggressive about this, but I live in Dallas. You apparently live in a rural area, despite its proximity to Fort Worth. The fact that crimes can't be stopped doesn't mean we shouldn't do something to protect ourselves. There's a ban here on leaving your dog's feces in someone else's yard. Guess what? It actually works.

    The last thing the people of Texas are in the mood for right now is more state or federal government. Let the communities decide for themselves. We don't need another agency to administer dog training.

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