Should SUV's be banned?

[okiemax]

The Mayor of London hates them. Paris may ban them. Why? SUV's pollute, hog space, and are a hazard to others. See article:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...uvs/index.html

What is your view on SUV's where you live? If you believe they are a problem, what measures would you recommend to discourage their use?

[FLZapped]

The Mayor of London hates them. Paris may ban them. Why? SUV's pollute, hog space, and are a hazard to others.

1) Every gasolne or diesel powered combustion engine powered automobile pollutes. Especially those not cared for properly.

2) Hog space? How? What, because they are longer? They still take only a single parking space at the mall. Bad drivers "hog" more space than any vehicle. Sounds like someone is afraid they'll be late for work if they aren't three feet closer to their destination because of a vehicle length.....maybe they should just start out 3 seconds earlier......

3) Hazard: really? Bad drivers are far more dangerous.

These are truely bad examples, of the many that coule be cited.

-Bruce

[okiemax]

1) Every gasolne or diesel powered combustion engine powered automobile pollutes. Especially those not cared for properly.

2) Hog space? How? What, because they are longer? They still take only a single parking space at the mall. Bad drivers "hog" more space than any vehicle. Sounds like someone is afraid they'll be late for work if they aren't three feet closer to their destination because of a vehicle length.....maybe they should just start out 3 seconds earlier......

3) Hazard: really? Bad drivers are far more dangerous.

These are truely bad examples, of the many that coule be cited.

-Bruce

If you don't think SUV's hog space, you have never tried parking a Hummer between two Land Cruisers in a shopping center parking lot.

[Resident Loser]

...25 yrs. now...not too many on the roads then, sorta' like an exclusive club...other CJ owners would wave and we would wave back...but now, you have these poseurs in their pig-mobiles casting a pall on the old guard...soccer moms and little puke-ball wannabees, cup-holders, carpeting, leather upholstery, CONVENIENCE OUTLETS!!! DVD players!!!...they ruined 'em in my book...turnin' them into gas-guzzlin' land yachts...gimmie my old four-banger and a canvas top...

jimHJJ(...and then, of course, you have the tax-dodge...right Phil?...)

[Chris]

Wait - isn't this America? Why would we ban a vehicle because some think it's too big and pollutes too much? We Americans enjoy over-indulging, having more than we need, and being pampered. SUVs are great for larger families, but some people just want the extra capacity to haul stuff around and don't want a truck.

Are we going to ban people from having big houses next? They require more electricity, use more water, and take up too much space - requiring more trees to be cut down...

Come on people, think about what you're saying. If you think SUV's are bad, don't buy one. Don't try forcing your beliefs on everyone else though, because there are many other arguments and comparisons that can be brought up. If you want to cut down on pollution so bad, why not also talk to your congressman and have them do something to tighten the belt of the big factories that dump emissions into the air. Nobody seems to care as much about industry pollution which affects the air AND the water. That's what gets me. Let's go after the over-indulging Americans for being Americans.

[JSE]

Should SUVs be banned?

Hell no! I'm tired of all these eco-freaks saying SUVs will cause the end of the world. Stupidity will cause the end of the world, not my Tahoe. Let's not stop at SUVs, let's ban pickups, gas guzzling high end luxury cars, 18 wheelers, large ships, airliners, trains, etc, etc, etc, blah, blah blah, blah.

On the way home today, I am going to drive my BIG A$$ TAHOE in 2nd gear all the way home thus making the engine turn at a higher RPM which will in turn burned more fuel and thus bring this world of ours to an end 1/100,000,000,000 of a mili-second quicker. I will then consume some Abita Amber Ale to wash away the guilt I will be feeling knowing that my distant relatives will have one less 1/100,000,000,000 of a mili-second to live before our world ends. Of course that's assuming I can afford the beer after putting $45 more worth of fuel the the SUV after driving in 2nd gear.

JSE

[Resident Loser]

...overindulgence is the culprit behind many problems in this country...think about it...if folks lived within their means we wouldn't need two income families...kids would have an adult supervising them at all times...people would be eating fresh healthy food rather than Macwendybell swill...I could go on...instead we have a fat, self-indulgent population who wants everything yesterday, is constantly told by the media they can have it all and are in debt up to their eyeballs...most of the time is spent keeping up with the Jonses...or sitting on their lard-@$$es rooting for some overpaid, overblown hype of an "athlete" whose lifestyle is hung out like a carrot in front of a pony and the circle goes unbroken!!!

Why don't more people use public transportation? They're too busy "multitasking"...couldn't stand the inconveniece of it all...Industry? That's nearly a laff! Everything is made in China...the only thing we produce here is self-centered, pill-popping, spoiled brats and their gas-bag parents who think something is owed to them just for being Americans!

jimHJJ(...you want fries with that?...)

[gonefishin]

I don't have a problem with a ban on SUV's and large trucks at all!

If any individual wishes to ban an SUV or large truck. By all means...they have the right to do so.



leaving my truck out of this for a moment...and bringing it on the subject of audio. Howabout we ban all class A amplifiers! oh...and inefficient loudspeakers (oops...that ain't such a good idea)


jimHJJ,
lol...I fogot all about the CJ wave boy did that bring back a few memories.


oh...if you want to get rid of several problems (without banishing pctower)...get rid of credit cards and raise the qualifications back up when a person tries to get a loan.
my guess, not only would people soon be living (closer) to within their means...but they would also eat out less and be far skinnier (as a whole)


(lock'em in and) take care>>>>>>>

[Woochifer]

As much as I loathe and laugh at SUVs, whether as a driving enthusiast or as someone who has to deal with driving around them on the road, I think it's ridiculous to suggest banning them outright.

However, I will add that I think they should either be subject to the same safety, emission, and fuel economy regulations as passenger vehicles, or we should just dump those types of standards for all cars. The vast majority of SUVs now serve the same function as passenger vehicles, so they should be treated the same way. I mean, if a performance vehicle like a Mercedes AMG is subject to a gas guzzler tax, then why shouldn't an SUV be subject to that same tax if its gas mileage qualifies it as a gas guzzler. By extension, if a Honda Civic is required to have side impact protection in the doors and 5 MPH bumpers, then why shouldn't a Ford Escape be required to have those same features? And if we're going to have a ULEV emission mandate in California, then why would that standard not apply to SUVs? Aside from SUVs being very profitable for domestic auto producers, there's no justification to this double standard whatsoever. Either regulate or don't regulate, but don't tell me that it's logical to subject a Mazda 6 wagon to stricter safety, emission, and fuel economy standards than a Chevy Trailblazer, when both vehicles basically serve the same function.

Personally, I believe that people should make their own choices about the type of car that they want to own. And if that entails overpaying for a bloated gas hog with inferior performance and outmoded technology, then so be it.

[Woochifer]

leaving my truck out of this for a moment...and bringing it on the subject of audio. Howabout we ban all class A amplifiers! oh...and inefficient loudspeakers (oops...that ain't such a good idea)

Actually, not out of the rhelm of possibility. I read that the European Union is trying to come up with a uniform energy efficiency standard for electronics, and things like amplifiers would potentially fall under that standard. After protests from some European component manufacturers, supposedly they are trying to work around this so that things like Class A amps don't get banned unnecessarily.

[Woochifer]

Why don't more people use public transportation? They're too busy "multitasking"...couldn't stand the inconveniece of it all...Industry? That's nearly a laff! Everything is made in China...the only thing we produce here is self-centered, pill-popping, spoiled brats and their gas-bag parents who think something is owed to them just for being Americans!

jimHJJ(...you want fries with that?...)

LOL, I feel your pain! Actually, I take public transit to work, and it's MUCH easier to multitask on the train than in my car (if I'm really industrious, I can actually do 1.5 hours of billable time during my commute and leave the office early). Ever try using geographic information system software while behind the wheel? Yah, that's what I'm talking about!

[Resident Loser]

...drivin the rugrats to soccer practice, yappin' on the cell and eatin' an EggMcMucous...

jimHJJ(...that's "multitasking" to some...)

[cam]

The Ford Escape can now be ordered with hybrid technology. 2.3L and battery powered, and so I am told when you floor it, it has the acceleration of the 3.0L. But if someone needs the cargo capacity of the escape just so you know there is 8 cubic feet more cargo capacity behind the seats in the Focus wagon. But the wagon just wouldn't be cool so alot of morons will opt for the GAS HOG SUV.

[Justlisten2]

Actually, not out of the rhelm of possibility. I read that the European Union is trying to come up with a uniform energy efficiency standard for electronics, and things like amplifiers would potentially fall under that standard. After protests from some European component manufacturers, supposedly they are trying to work around this so that things like Class A amps don't get banned unnecessarily.

They'll have to pry my Class A monoblocks from my cold, dead fingers, hehe. Once you've gone hot there's no turning back. Since I run Class A monblocks, I guess I can't complain about the 'wastefulness' of SUV's. Personally, I'd prefer a Porsche, but to each their own. What seems weird to me is that I see far more women driving SUV's then men. I have 8 sisters, 4 drive SUV's. They wouldn't be caught dead in a mini-van, that's so soccer mom, LOL! Women rebelling against the soccer mom label seems to be whats fueling the SUV sales.

[Justlisten2]

What is your view on SUV's where you live? If you believe they are a problem, what measures would you recommend to discourage their use?

I think raising gas prices is punishment enough.

[okiemax]

I have views similar to yours. My main concern is the social costs of motorists driving vehicles that are much larger than what they need, and the inadequate efforts by the Federal Government to discourage the practice. This would be a problem regardless of whether the large vehicles are SUV's, vans, or sedans. Hopefully, people who like SUV's( but don't need much passenger and cargo capacity) will find the smaller versions more appealing in the coming years.

[Woochifer]

The Ford Escape can now be ordered with hybrid technology. 2.3L and battery powered, and so I am told when you floor it, it has the acceleration of the 3.0L. But if someone needs the cargo capacity of the escape just so you know there is 8 cubic feet more cargo capacity behind the seats in the Focus wagon. But the wagon just wouldn't be cool so alot of morons will opt for the GAS HOG SUV.

Doesn't surprise me one bit, SUVs have got those huge exterior dimensions, yet they also have to sacrifice a lot of interior space and raise the center of gravity to accommodate a four-wheel drivetrain and qualify for all those "light truck" exemptions. I once rented Chevy Blazer for a conference in the mountains, and while I normally love driving through winding mountain roads, that SUV just sucked all the fun out of the drive with its poor handling, extreme body lean, oceanliner-like road feel, and inadequate brakes. I couldn't believe how piss poor that thing was for cargo hauling because of how awkwardly dimensioned the interior was, presumably to accommodate that four-wheel drivetrain (which the majority of Blazer owners don't order).

At least something like an Audi Quattro has all-wheel drive for performance reasons, rather than providing "offroading" capabilities that 90% of SUV owners will never use and compromise the performance and safety of the vehicle in all other normal driving situations. With the base 2WD Ford Escape, you got the worst of all worlds -- a slow, poor handling, overweight, and awkwardly proportioned box on wheels, that has cramped interior space, and paperthin bumpers and zero side impact protection in the doors to boot.

[Resident Loser]

...that the drivetrain in no way impinges on the vehicle's interior dimensions...the transfer case(the thingee what splits motive power front to rear) is really the only "add-on". In a properly designed(read: REAL) vehicle it resides between the frame rails, below the floorboards and is protected by a skid-plate. The front axle is where it belongs(under the engine) and the rear end is where it belongs, 2WD or 4WD...Stow-away seats, hidden compartments...some of the things I'm complaining about, can be responsible for the lack of real estate...of course, if the designer caters to the wannabees who can't step up into the vehicle and designs it to be lower, then that can also affect payload...it also reduces ground clearance and wheel articulation as does the independent suspensions now infecting the breed, rendering it useless for those of us who require those things...they have become bloated cars for all intent and purpose...diluted to the point of "why bother?"...but the poseurs wannabe cool and rugged and everybody has one and...it's just an old fashioned p!$$!n' match...why not get a decent mini-van, at least they fall under guidelines...

Problem is they aren't cars, don't handle like 'em...anyone who thinks they are any safer is a fool...with ABS, 4WD and electronic traction controls, they give the morons who buy 'em a false sense of invincibility...if anything you have to be able to actually drive to use one safely...and Lord knows, few really do know how...

Like every other thing, people get sold a bill of goods and the market drives the mfrs. and so on...how else could you account for bloated beasts like the H2, or the Excursion or the Escalade...a Caddy or Lincoln pick-me-up truck? What a load...and the mfrs. love the "gray" areas which lets them fudge the CAFE numbers; as do the accountants who advise their clients to buy a truck for the write-off...

jimHJJ(...and ifn' yain't gonna use 4WD, buy a friggin' car and rent a truck when you need to...)

[RGA]

You want people to get out of cars and into Public transit - make public transit relaly cheap and charge $50.00 a litre for Gas. Then when people have to pay more to get to work and back than they actually made working they might clue in.

But the oil industry - and therefore the power behind the American Government would much rather you buy a Hummer than a Honda Hybrid. And no amount of attacking other countries is going to prevent the innevitable - delay it maybe.

Problem is in a lot of cities like mine the public transit is just so pathetic that people don't even consider it an option if they have the money for a car.

But if I lived in Vancouver with Busses going up and down the street every 5 minutes and skytrain that will get you from Surrey to downtown Vancouver in Rush hour in roughly 40 minutes - even if you own a Ferrari that trip is over an hour. And yet people still drive it - and pay over $10.00 a day to park? That boggles the mind.

But i have no right to tell people what they can choose to own - we can all vote to tax extra those people or punish them in various financial ways higher insurance, higher gas, in Canada Luxury taxes on vehicles over $30K etc. If you choose to pay those taxes and be a George Steinbrenner - it may be bad for the environment it may be a meanie thing to do but you're playing by the rules so can't complain.

But if some eco group splaches paint all over your Hummer - please don't expect sympathy from me - I will just give you a big chortle and a "oh well just another downside to owning the vehicle - if you want to wear mink Coats and drive Hummers you are welcome to do so - you want to be a racist KKK you are welcome to do that as well. But you are welcome to have me laugh at your plight. you got enough money for a Hummer and you don't care about the environment and you're dumb enough to have such a poor reliable vehicle(per Lemon-aid) don't wine about the the Eco-freaks who paint and or set fire to your vehicle - just be thankful you were not in it. The police are there to protect you - but sympathy? hahaha.

[Bryan]

So then those Eco-freaks (rightly named I might add) shouldn't complain when the owners of gas-guzzling vehicles either set fire to or otherwise damage their personal property. A person having or not having money offers no excuse to your being a jerk.

SUVs get an un-deserved bad rap. Pickups, vans, etc. all get about the same MPG. Hell, an SUV is no more than a pickup with a topper and the interior and bed fancied up. It is a cross between a pickup truck and station wagon.

Do people have a problem with the vehicle itself or the person driving that vehicle? My guess the answer is 80/20 in favor of the person rather than the vehicle.

Public transportation, while an excellent option, is not a viable solution for me.

1. It doesn't meet my schedule. I want to get from home to work and back again yet the buses run once an hour. Half the time it would be faster for me to walk.

2. It doesn't go where I need it to. Why would I want to go downtown or change buses when the direct route is best? Taking the bus would add well over an hour each way to my commute. Taking my vehicle it takes 12 minutes or less.

3. It doesn't afford me cargo space. Not a good option when you need to move things, get groceries, or pick up material for DIY projects.

4. Did I forget to mention the hours of operation?

Perhaps it would work in cities designed around public transportation. However, since where I live isn't designed for public transportation I choose to drive a vehicle and will comfortably park between the Hummer and Land Rover.

[Resident Loser]

...public transit WOULD be nice when and where it's possible, but that's not my main b!tch in all this. Actually, I wish the sheep would find a new trend du jour and cease turning Jeeps and Toys and such into bloated school buses...leave the trucks alone!!!

jimHJJ(...all it would take is to have the "Governator" or some other high-profile type apply the "cool" factor to something else...like a Mini-Cooper...)

[Woochifer]

...that the drivetrain in no way impinges on the vehicle's interior dimensions...the transfer case(the thingee what splits motive power front to rear) is really the only "add-on". In a properly designed(read: REAL) vehicle it resides between the frame rails, below the floorboards and is protected by a skid-plate. The front axle is where it belongs(under the engine) and the rear end is where it belongs, 2WD or 4WD.

Compared to a rear-wheel drive vehicle, that's true. But, a front-wheel drive passenger car (which represents most of the passenger cars sold) generally has a flatter floorpan and a lot more versatility for the designers to configure the interior space. Comparing the Ford Focus wagon with the Escape (a friend of mine and his wife own each of them), the interior of the Focus is far more efficiently laidout, yet it's lighter, faster, more agile, with more safety features and bumpers that actually prevent expensive damage to the body in low speed collisions.

Problem is they aren't cars, don't handle like 'em...anyone who thinks they are any safer is a fool...with ABS, 4WD and electronic traction controls, they give the morons who buy 'em a false sense of invincibility...if anything you have to be able to actually drive to use one safely...and Lord knows, few really do know how...

Even worse are the SUV owners who try to pilot those things like sports cars. Several years ago, a friend of mine who worked as an engineer at Nissan told me that rising demand for SUVs would eventually kill the sports car market because early on it was mostly former sports car owners (presumably after starting a family) who were driving the demand for SUVs (presumably because they didn't want to be seen in a minivan or wagon). Doesn't surprise me that driving habits formed around the capabilities of a 300ZX or RX-7 or Supra would still rear their ugly head after trading those high performance cars in for three-ton behemoths with oceanliner-like responsiveness.

jimHJJ(...and ifn' yain't gonna use 4WD, buy a friggin' car and rent a truck when you need to...)

Couldn't agree with you more. I just can't see putting up with the inferior performance and
gawdawful driving experience of a SUV on a daily basis, just so I can have a contingency for those occasions every few years where I might actually want 4WD or offroading capabilities. I mean, what does it say about a class of vehicles if a Toyota Camry can outhandle nearly all of them? If I ever actually need a SUV, Avis is right around the block.

[Woochifer]

So then those Eco-freaks (rightly named I might add) shouldn't complain when the owners of gas-guzzling vehicles either set fire to or otherwise damage their personal property. A person having or not having money offers no excuse to your being a jerk.

Aside from those two dealer fires in California, how often do SUVs get torched? That example is hardly representative of people like me who don't like SUVs.

SUVs get an un-deserved bad rap. Pickups, vans, etc. all get about the same MPG. Hell, an SUV is no more than a pickup with a topper and the interior and bed fancied up. It is a cross between a pickup truck and station wagon.

Actually, the minivans typically get higher mileage than the SUVs. (Just compare the Dodge Durango to the Caravan) While it's true that SUVs are often nothing more than pickup trucks with a fully fitted interior, that interior adds a lot of weight to an already heavy vehicle. The difference between SUVs and station wagons are that wagons are lower to the ground, have higher emission and fuel economy standards, and more required safety features.

Do people have a problem with the vehicle itself or the person driving that vehicle? My guess the answer is 80/20 in favor of the person rather than the vehicle.

I have no problem with people choosing which car they want to own. I just have no desire to own something that's so antithetical to the concept of a "driver's car" and has so many performance compromises built around offroading capabilities that around 90% of SUV owners admit that they never use.

[RGA]

Woochifer makes the case. People who own trucks and have some point to owning them I have no p[roblem with whatsoever - you run a painting business you need to lug pain cans around kinda thing. Why 50% of vehicles sold here are some truck variation is inexcusable. Barely anyone off-roads and those SUVs are mostly a Joke for true offroading.

I did not say it was acceptable for eco people to fire bomb Hummers - there are laws - I just don't feel sympathy for people who choose to leave a bad foot print on this planet to such a huge degree with the idea that don't worry God will fix it later - or having oil companies pay scientists off for LYING to the public that everything isn't nearly as bad as people think. PPG&E has demontrated that on numerous occasions getting scientists into their pockets - and they're chumps compared to big oil.

The Hummer is attacked because for consumer use it is totally unnecessary vehichle in every regard. You can take your kids around in a Honda Civic - Last I checked most cars hold 5 persons. If you need more fine - the word need is in there.

Excuses overpoor public transit - well is true because not enough people take it they don't offer the service - and because they don't offer the service few take it - so it's a chicken and the egg deal.

In London a car is not required - you will no doubt take 3 times longer to get ANYWHERE with a car. But it's a great system. Most downtown cores of major cities don't require owning a car. If you want to go on a road trip rent one - emergency trip take a taxi. Adding these odd trips up would still pocket you loads of money so you could afford to get a nice Audio Note stereo :-)

Certainly some people need trucks and some people need a Mini-van or Station wagon - but all those people who are SERIOUS about fighting terrorism frankly would fight it where it really has any power at all - with your pocketbooks - stop supporting Saudi Arabia - the core of terrorism and where your gas money indirectly ends up.

[Mash]

"While it's true that SUVs are often nothing more than pickup trucks with a fully fitted interior, that interior adds a lot of weight to an already heavy vehicle. "

Not true. Full-size pickups have very strong frames (with the exception of the POS 2000-2003 Ford F150 that was screwed up by Nasser & his cronies. The screwed-up 2000-2003 Ford F150 is why Bill Ford kicked Nasser out of Ford and took direct control of Ford Motors.)

SUV's are pieces of fashionable crap that lack any crashworthiness combined with poor handling. Have you noticed that as the SUV population increases more and more SUV drivers are winning Darwin Awards?

I use my Ford F150 for tasks such as hauling trash and towing our boat. Moving our boat up and down a launch ramp is zero challenge because my F150 has limited slip front and rear axles and I use low-range on the ramp. But I do NOT commute in the F150. A Toyota Camry meets all of my car-driving tasks.