Question for the anti-pre-emptive policy folks...

[bturk667]

One fact for you:
Kerry fought, Bush hid!!!!

[Woochifer]

One fact for you:
Kerry fought, Bush hid!!!!

I guess that explains all the desperate attempts to link Kerry with Jane Fonda, including that fabricated photo that's been making its way around the internet.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NG4S54RGO1.DTL



The actual photographer holding a print of the original photo.



The doctored photo that's made its way around the web and on the various right wing talk shows. Think they've issued any retractions now that the photo's been proven to be a hoax?

[tugmcmartin]

Apparently there have been two photos referenced on the three talk shows i listen to. One is the fake one that you've linked, for which the three hosts i listen to have retracted their statements about it. The second is this real one, which shows the good Sen. Kerry sitting about two or three rows behind Hanoi Jane at a Valley Forge anti-war rally:



T-

[Woochifer]

Apparently there have been two photos referenced on the three talk shows i listen to. One is the fake one that you've linked, for which the three hosts i listen to have retracted their statements about it. The second is this real one, which shows the good Sen. Kerry sitting about two or three rows behind Hanoi Jane at a Valley Forge anti-war rally:

Yeah, I've seen that photo as well, but really wonder what substance, if any, that photo brings to the table. I mean, Kerry says that he didn't know Jane Fonda back then, and this photo doesn't really prove any connection between the two, other than they were both at the same event on that particular day. The anti-war rally in the picture supposedly occurred in 1970, while Fonda went to Hanoi for her photo op with the Viet Cong gunners in 1972. Even if Kerry knew Fonda at that rally, it certainly doesn't mean that he supported her later on when she went to Hanoi. In that calculus, the guilt by association, implied by the media sources who are circulating the photo and trying to make an issue out of it, just doesn't compute.

By serving his tour of duty in Vietnam, I think that Kerry more than earned the right to protest and attend rallies without having his patriotism questioned or connected to someone whose actions were less than honorable.

[tugmcmartin]

Yeah, I've seen that photo as well, but really wonder what substance, if any, that photo brings to the table. I mean, Kerry says that he didn't know Jane Fonda back then, and this photo doesn't really prove any connection between the two, other than they were both at the same event on that particular day. The anti-war rally in the picture supposedly occurred in 1970, while Fonda went to Hanoi for her photo op with the Viet Cong gunners in 1972. Even if Kerry knew Fonda at that rally, it certainly doesn't mean that he supported her later on when she went to Hanoi. In that calculus, the guilt by association, implied by the media sources who are circulating the photo and trying to make an issue out of it, just doesn't compute.

By serving his tour of duty in Vietnam, I think that Kerry more than earned the right to protest and attend rallies without having his patriotism questioned or connected to someone whose actions were less than honorable.

From what i've read on the 'net (which by association means it may not be true), Fonda later got up to speak at the rally from which this photo was taken... and then Kerry got up to speak as well... though i think they were both sort of impromptu speeches from the back of some pickup truck after the real speakers were done. I agree with you though that this photo doesn't really mean a whole hell of a lot. But I would also argue that Kerry's record in the years following his 4 months of service in Nam could very well illustrate that he indirectly supported Fonda's views. All one needs to do is listen to his speeches on the subject from the time and you can't help but see similarities in their views. Whether or not they were "connected" you can definitely make some degree of comparisons.

On a slightly related note, i find it humorous that Kerry and the liberal media somehow are equating questioning of Kerry's senate voting record to accusing him of being unpatriotic.

T-

[Woochifer]

From what i've read on the 'net (which by association means it may not be true), Fonda later got up to speak at the rally from which this photo was taken... and then Kerry got up to speak as well... though i think they were both sort of impromptu speeches from the back of some pickup truck after the real speakers were done. I agree with you though that this photo doesn't really mean a whole hell of a lot. But I would also argue that Kerry's record in the years following his 4 months of service in Nam could very well illustrate that he indirectly supported Fonda's views. All one needs to do is listen to his speeches on the subject from the time and you can't help but see similarities in their views. Whether or not they were "connected" you can definitely make some degree of comparisons.

But, again with the circulating and/or doctoring of photos, there are obviously people out there who are trying to make a much more direct connection between the two, for the sole purpose of diverting and inflaming the campaign since Jane Fonda is such a virtriolic lightning rod for so many people. There's a huge difference between making speeches at antiwar rallies, and flying to Hanoi to pose for pictures with enemy combatants.

On a slightly related note, i find it humorous that Kerry and the liberal media somehow are equating questioning of Kerry's senate voting record to accusing him of being unpatriotic.

T-

I don't think it's conservative attacks on Kerry's voting record that are in question, but rather some attacks I've read that basically say that his antiwar activities after he returned from Vietnam negated anything honorable he did in combat, which I think is ridiculous. Some people still regard exercising free speech rights at antiwar rallies as some kind of treasonous act, and this is just another expression of that perspective. I mean, when you got people like Ann Coulter who denigrade a veteran like Max Cleland by claiming it's somehow less than worthy that he got three of his limbs blown off in a non-combat situation (while conveniently ignoring his other acts of valor while under enemy fire), something's amiss.

Kerry says he had reservations about the war, but went there so that someone else would not have to take his place. If true, that's honorable, and IMO would give him both the right and the moral authority to participate in antiwar activities. Contrast this with people who claim to have supported the Vietnam war, but took every chance to avoid serving over there. (Check the PNAC signatory list, if you want a few examples)

BTW, what you regard as liberal media, I view as the corporate media.

[tugmcmartin]

But, again with the circulating and/or doctoring of photos, there are obviously people out there who are trying to make a much more direct connection between the two, for the sole purpose of diverting and inflaming the campaign since Jane Fonda is such a virtriolic lightning rod for so many people. There's a huge difference between making speeches at antiwar rallies, and flying to Hanoi to pose for pictures with enemy combatants.

I agree. I think Kerry's post Vietnam War record speaks for itself and can stand alone without linking it to Fonda.

I don't think it's conservative attacks on Kerry's voting record that are in question, but rather some attacks I've read that basically say that his antiwar activities after he returned from Vietnam negated anything honorable he did in combat, which I think is ridiculous. Some people still regard exercising free speech rights at antiwar rallies as some kind of treasonous act, and this is just another expression of that perspective. I mean, when you got people like Ann Coulter who denigrade a veteran like Max Cleland by claiming it's somehow less than worthy that he got three of his limbs blown off in a non-combat situation (while conveniently ignoring his other acts of valor while under enemy fire), something's amiss.

I think it's Kerry who has tried to equate questions about his voting record to a question of his patriotism. There's a sound bite floating around on conservative radio shows that has Kerry saying, in response to questions about Kerry's voting record on defense programs and national security, where Kerry basically says he can't understand why "repblicans who haven't fought in a war would question his record and patriotism" because of those votes (or something to that effect). I don't think many people are questioning his patriotism. He did afterall volunteer for service and from all accounts serve bravely and well. But what shouldn't be out of bounds for questioning is his voting record. Just because he's a veteran and a patriot doesn't mean that his votes on national defense measures are off limits to scrutiny. A veteran and a patriot can still make bad decisions and its those decisions that are being questioned.

Kerry says he had reservations about the war, but went there so that someone else would not have to take his place. If true, that's honorable, and IMO would give him both the right and the moral authority to participate in antiwar activities. Contrast this with people who claim to have supported the Vietnam war, but took every chance to avoid serving over there. (Check the PNAC signatory list, if you want a few examples)

I doubt very seriously if thats the real reason Kerry went. But who am i to say. If it is true, that's very admirable. My dad said he went because no one else was. Not sure if thats true, but it sure would be something good for someone aspiring to political office to say. Maybe he should run for president... .

BTW, what you regard as liberal media, I view as the corporate media.

Fair enough. But Fox News is corporate news and certainly isn't liberal.

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