New Obama Controversy

[ForeverAutumn]

FA, I followed your comments in the abortion thread, I find it very interesting that you think you could sit down and have a conversation with Palin. You two are about as polar opposites as two people can get. The commonality, you are both women. I have a high school friend, she used to be my girlfriend, is the same way. She told me she don't like Obama and not sold on McCain so she don't know for who or if she will vote. But once Palin was on the ticket boy she was sold on McCain/Palin, no matter what stupid ideas they came up with. For the most part at first I think picking Palin was working to swing women voters just because she was a woman.

I didn't like her religious views or her views on abortion and gay marriage. In general I don't like the moral view that most Conservatives take, including those in my own country. Although, I do consider myself to be Conservative, when it comes to the moral issues my views are definitely more liberal.

I guess it was more her attitude that I was liking rather than her views. As I said, I didn't see nearly as much of her as you all must have. Maybe I just saw the clips that put her in the best light and missed the stuff that made her look stupid. And I wouldn't say that it had anything to do with being a woman.

[02audionoob]

We saw moments like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nokTjEdaUGg

[Rich-n-Texas]

Yeah, just watch were she points that gun, when you start getting frisky.

My guns're bigger than hers anyway, so who cares?

[Feanor]

I didn't like her religious views or her views on abortion and gay marriage. In general I don't like the moral view that most Conservatives take, including those in my own country. Although, I do consider myself to be Conservative, when it comes to the moral issues my views are definitely more liberal.

I guess it was more her attitude that I was liking rather than her views. As I said, I didn't see nearly as much of her as you all must have. Maybe I just saw the clips that put her in the best light and missed the stuff that made her look stupid. And I wouldn't say that it had anything to do with being a woman.

As I explained before, (who listens?), Palin was selected -- not by McCain but more likely Republican back-room advisors -- to complement him in various respects. One of McCain's perceived "weaknesses" was that he doesn't have a particularly strong religious bent. (Of course, another was that he is male.)

As I've also explained, there is no necessary link between financial and social conservatives, but the financial conservatives would have great difficulty being elected without support from other constituencies. At one time, especially in the southern US, conservatives voted Democat, (recall I mentioned "yellow-dog" Democrats). But as the Democrats more came more clearly linked with socially progressive policies, beginning with racial equality, the "yellow-dogs" began to rethink their support. The Republicans, before then largely fiscal conservatives, shrewdly courted these voters and did so with great success.

A couple of weeks ago I checked out the NY Times analysis of voting trends. Geographically, if not by numbers of voters, the US has continuously shifted from Democat to Republican since 1992 per the Times, and actually longer than that. Amazingly even in this year's election when most areas shifted back to the Democrats, the Republican vote increased futher in some areas. Which areas were these? Well mostly the Appalacian plateau and the Ozarks: have you heard the term "hillbilly"?

[02audionoob]

The whole conservative Democrat thing was a confusing phenomenon to me as a kid in Texas. This staunchly conservative state elected governors from the Democratic party continuously from the late 1800's until the 1978 election. Lt Governor (elected separately from the governor) went to the Democrats uninterrupted until 1998. After that first Republican governor of the century, two more Democrats served as governor, but they were of the liberal variety. I suspect we've seen the last of that for a while.

[Mr Peabody]

When Feanor talks, everyone listens!!!

It's not "hillbilly" it's "religious right". Well.... probably hillbilly too.

[Rich-n-Texas]

HUH? Who said what?

Is the outsider complaining again?

[Auricauricle]

Say what you will, but isues of politics, race and religion were all part of an inevitable momentum that was bound to push the pendulum back to the middle. I have little doubt that while the installation of reactionary and divisive persons and policies will attend Obama's ascent, they will be thoughtfully placed. Obama has already worried some loyalists with his inclusion of Hillary but this decision making, hard as it is, signals prudence and a willingness to proceed with dispassion. While these measures signal a decisive interest in "righting the ship", the forces that have contributed to the status quo of the last eight years will certainly resist these forces with urgent vigor.

The crisis that is before is one that lays the onus of culpability on both parties. While neocoms set out to do their work, Democrat representatives who were charged to keep them in check abdicated their responsibilities with miserable cowardice. Recent weeks have shown renewed Democrat intestinal fortitude, but they should not be let off their respective hooks that easily.

I am not sure if Obama will embrace a centralist position, once the dust settles and the accountable are lined up to get what they deserve. I don't expect a purging, for it would only be symbolic and would fail to deal with forces at work that lay well outside the Beltway's confines. In the end, Washington is a Good Old Boys Club, of which Democrat and Republican reps are all members....

One thing is for sure, the world will be watching!

[Feanor]

...

As I've also explained, there is no necessary link between financial and social conservatives, but the financial conservatives would have great difficulty being elected without support from other constituencies. At one time, especially in the southern US, conservatives voted Democat, (recall I mentioned "yellow-dog" Democrats). But as the Democrats more came more clearly linked with socially progressive policies, beginning with racial equality, the "yellow-dogs" began to rethink their support. The Republicans, before then largely fiscal conservatives, shrewdly courted these voters and did so with great success.

... the US has continuously shifted from Democat to Republican since 1992 per the Times, and actually longer than that. ...

I ought to have said economic conservatives rather than "financial". Or "fiscal' -- heck, I'm a fiscal conservative myself, that is, a believer that governments should normally balance their budgets and be held tightly accountable for their spending.

The social conservative connection with the Democratic Party went all the way back to the Civil War of course. The belated and lengthy migration to the Republican party by the red-necks and hillbillies bespeaks the mindless but typical tendancy to vote the way one's parents do. We can note too that for a long time southern Blacks voted Republican because it was historically the party of Lincoln and emancipation, but that this too has changed.

Hmmm ... for an outsider I think I know a good deal about U.S. history and politics: strange. But I suppose I'm not typical of foreigners.

[trollgirl]

"New Obama Controversy"?

Is anyone aware of a more important one: serious questions over his COLB, his birthplace, his real country of citizenship? There are several legal actions ongoing on this issue. The Kenyan ambassador has admitted Obama was born in Kenya, and his Kenyan birth cert has been tracked down. Since he travelled in the past on an Indonesian passport, his citizenship is in question too, which also puts into question his qualification to run for President. It will be bemusing to see how this works out...

Laz

[Ajani]

"New Obama Controversy"?

Is anyone aware of a more important one: serious questions over his COLB, his birthplace, his real country of citizenship? There are several legal actions ongoing on this issue. The Kenyan ambassador has admitted Obama was born in Kenya, and his Kenyan birth cert has been tracked down. Since he travelled in the past on an Indonesian passport, his citizenship is in question too, which also puts into question his qualification to run for President. It will be bemusing to see how this works out...

Laz

Nope, never heard of that one... seems highly unlikely given how much scrutiny would have gone into checking his legal status from before he even ran for the Democratic Nomination... Also, I'd like to see an article even mentioning such a 'controversy' on a credible newsource such as CNN...

Do you have a link you could provide?

[02audionoob]

Obama was born to an American mother. It doesn't matter if she was in Kenya at the time.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Nope, never heard of that one... seems highly unlikely given how much scrutiny would have gone into checking his legal status from before he even ran for the Democratic Nomination... Also, I'd like to see an article even mentioning such a 'controversy' on a credible newsource such as CNN...

Do you have a link you could provide?

Spoken like a true liberal. "..credible newscource such as [insert *liberal* here]CNN..."



You should've seen the way Diane Sawyer and Charlie Gibson were falling all over themsleves with joy and how giddy Sawyer got when ABC projected Obama as the winner.

Please dude. You'll never get a liberal to agree the news media is left-leaning, but the rest of the world knows better. Do you read the newspaper Ajani? Do you go past page one? Look for it on page 7. It'll be a tiny little 3 paragraph article.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Obama was born to an American mother. It doesn't matter if she was in Kenya at the time.

The father was a Tribal Chief?

[trollgirl]

Obama was born to an American mother. It doesn't matter if she was in Kenya at the time.

Actually, given the way the law reads, it does matter.


Here's a credible source, as requested:

An Open Letter to
Barack Obama
By John Wallace
New York Campaign for Liberty
11-2-8

I know you are busy running for President of the greatest country in the world, but there are a couple of things about your background and qualifications for the office that concern me and many of my fellow Americans. Never before has a Presidential candidate failed to fully disclose routine information about their background that might help the voters make an informed choice in an election. It seems that many records concerning your background have either be been sealed or are temporarily unavailable for review. I know that any honest person like yourself, who is running for the highest office in the land, would never overtly want to keep such information from public review.
Here's a partial list:

1. Occidental College records -- Not released
2. Columbia College records -- Not released
3. Columbia Thesis paper -- Not available, locked down by faculty
4. Harvard College records -- Not released, locked down by faculty
5. Selective Service Registration -- Not released
6. Medical records -- Not released
7. Certified Copy of original Birth certificate -- Not released (sealed?)
8. Certified Copy of Certification of Live Birth -- Not released (sealed?)
9. Birth records from Kenya -- (Sealed by the government of Kenya until after Election Day)
10. Your record of Christian Baptism -- Not released or unavailable
11. Illinois State Senate schedule - 'Not available'
12. Illinois State Senate records - Destroyed


I believe items #7,8 and 9 are the most critical and concern two issues that are very important to the American people:

1. Are Are you a Natural Born Citizen of the U.S.? and

2. Are you legally qualified to hold the Office of President?

In a recent federal court case in Pennsylvania, an American citizen, Philip Berg, filed a lawsuit claiming you were not a natural born citizen of the United States and therefore not qualified to be President. During that case, you never denied Mr. Berg's claims, but neither did you provid a valid birth certificate or other proof that you are a natural born citizen of the United States and therefore qualified under the Constitution to be President. Rather, you hid behind technicalities in the law to avoid the issue and the federal judge hearing the case dismissed Mr. Berg's lawsuit stating that Mr. Berg, acting as a "citizen," did not have legal standing to make such a challenge. This is a prime example of another outrageous decision by a federal judge to deny the American people their rights clearly outlined in the constitution.

There have been lawsuits filed, or currently being filed, in 7 or 8 states with various state Boards of Elections, claiming you are ineligible to be on their ballots because you have not produced proof that you are a natural born citizen of the United States. Mr. Obama, if you are truly and honorable man and a "Natural Born Citizen of the United States" you can clear up this issue very quickly. Just produce a certified copy of your birth certificate in any one of the names you have been know by (Barack Obama, Barry Soetoro, Barry Obama, Barack Dunham and Barry Dunham).
Your avoidance of the issue and your subsequent failure to prove you are a "Natural Born Citizen of the United States" is very suspicious and raises a very important constitutional issue that must be addressed before the November 4th election. Stop using legal technicalities, record sealing and courtroom maneuvers to avoid the issue. The American people have every constitutional right to know and they will eventually find out.

Try using honesty and truthfulness for a change and put this issue to rest. Either prove that you are a "Natural Born Citizen of the U.S." and are legally qualified to hold the Office of President, or withdraw the race.

If you do not do one of the other, the American people, regardless of party affiliation, will surely stand up and kick you out.

John Wallace
New York Campaign for Liberty
http://www.nycampaignforliberty.com/

[02audionoob]

Actually, given the way the law reads, it does matter.

I assume you're referring to the requirement to be a "natural born citizen". That phrase doesn't stipulate that the candidate be born inside the borders of the country.

[trollgirl]

I assume you're referring to the requirement to be a "natural born citizen". That phrase doesn't stipulate that the candidate be born inside the borders of the country.

Actually, I was referring to the law concerning foreign birth: to be an automatic American citizen although born overseas, Obama's mother needed to be at least nineteen years of age at the time of his birth, which she was not. At least that is how it was told to me.

Laz

[Ajani]

Spoken like a true liberal. "..credible newscource such as [insert *liberal* here]CNN..."



You should've seen the way Diane Sawyer and Charlie Gibson were falling all over themsleves with joy and how giddy Sawyer got when ABC projected Obama as the winner.

Please dude. You'll never get a liberal to agree the news media is left-leaning, but the rest of the world knows better. Do you read the newspaper Ajani? Do you go past page one? Look for it on page 7. It'll be a tiny little 3 paragraph article.

So since the media is all liberal (I assume you don't include Fox News in that) then should I just believe any claim made against a candidate, with no regard to the actual source of the story?

Without a credible source, it's not news, it's just gossip...

And in the case of this particular story I find it strange that a story of this "significance" would not be more prominent... especially back in the Democratic primaries, when Hilary supporters would have jumped on any opportunity to knock Obama out of the race...

You'll never get a liberal to agree the news media is left-leaning, but the rest of the world knows better.

Since you are an American, then (using your own logic, that you apply to Feanor and us foreigners) you shouldn't talk about the "rest of the world", since you don't live there and hence know nothing about it...

[trollgirl]

I find it strange that a story of this "significance" would not be more prominent... especially back in the Democratic primaries, when Hilary supporters would have jumped on any opportunity to knock Obama out of the race...

You never heard of backroom political deals? It may be no coincidence that Hillary Clinton has been selected as Secretary of State. You just have to connect the dots...

Laz

[Feanor]

Actually, I was referring to the law concerning foreign birth: to be an automatic American citizen although born overseas, Obama's mother needed to be at least nineteen years of age at the time of his birth, which she was not. At least that is how it was told to me.

Laz

Wikipedia says he was born in Hawaii. But we know that Wikipedia can be unreliable -- infiltrated as it is by left-wing radicals

[Ajani]

You never heard of backroom political deals? It may be no coincidence that Hillary Clinton has been selected as Secretary of State. You just have to connect the dots...

Laz

Sure Laz, it could be possible, but without real evidence it's still just gossip... Also, why would Hilary agree to that? Why accept Sec of State, when she could have been President? Unless we further speculate that Obama knew some dirty secret of hers as well...

And we can keep speculating to eternity on this one...

[Ajani]

Wikipedia says he was born in Hawaii. But we know that Wikipedia can be unreliable -- infiltrated as it is by left-wing radicals

I've always heard that he was born in Hawaii... that's been the official story for the entire campaign... And since I don't think either he or his mother ever lived in Kenya, the notion he was born in Kenya seems even stranger... His parents met at University in Hawaii... But who knows? it could be the liberal media who've kept this info locked down to prevent Sarah Palin and her VP J. McCain from taking the White House...

[JohnMichael]

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/...a/28mccain.php

McCain's likely nomination as the Republican candidate for president and the happenstance of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936 are reviving a musty debate that has surfaced periodically since the founders first set quill to parchment and declared that only a "natural-born-citizen" can hold the nation's highest office.



Interesting that many have forgotten that McCain was the first to have his eligibility to run for president questioned. This may open the doors for President Arnold.

[Auricauricle]

Oh, don't even go there, JM....That's the last thing this country needs: "Mr. Terminator"....

Hey, where's my group hug and beer? That's 1017 posts I've popped over to you scoundrels, you know! (Leaves playgound, kicking dirt and a little rock).

[02audionoob]

Actually, I was referring to the law concerning foreign birth: to be an automatic American citizen although born overseas, Obama's mother needed to be at least nineteen years of age at the time of his birth, which she was not. At least that is how it was told to me.

Laz

The time minimum doesn't apply in this case. Citizenship is transmitted by blood. If the mother had been a naturalized citizen instead of a native, it would be an issue.