My winter is ruined!

[kexodusc]

To the owner's it's the principal. To the players it could be 25% of their annual income.

I think that the stakes being small for the owners is part of the problem. Some of the NLL owners are also NHL owners which may make them jaded. Jennings commented that if the owners were willing to lose an NHL season a couple of years ago, they wouldn't think twice about giving up an NLL season.

In the meantime the fans are the real losers. I guess I could look at the bright side...I have a $500 refund for tickets coming my way.

Well, I guess you make a good point here - the money could be substantial to some of the players if they don't have much else yet.
I was thinking more along the lines that the players weren't losing millions or anything and were likely not going to cave in and break over the salaries they're paid now when they probably work somewhere else when not playing Lacrosse. Traditionally in sports stoppages, the players are pressured to concede because they give up such a large portion of their short, high-income careers. That's not really the case here - while not insubstantial in the short term, I doubt most NLL players are set for life after a 10 year career like some other sports. So a long stoppage probably hurts the owners more than the players.

Good point about the NHL/NBA clubs owning the teams - these things are pretty small peanuts for them but they do help pay some of the leases - does MLSE own the Rock?

[ForeverAutumn]

Well, I guess you make a good point here - the money could be substantial to some of the players if they don't have much else yet.
I was thinking more along the lines that the players weren't losing millions or anything and were likely not going to cave in and break over the salaries they're paid now when they probably work somewhere else when not playing Lacrosse. Traditionally in sports stoppages, the players are pressured to concede because they give up such a large portion of their short, high-income careers. That's not really the case here - while not insubstantial in the short term, I doubt most NLL players are set for life after a 10 year career like some other sports. So a long stoppage probably hurts the owners more than the players.

Good point about the NHL/NBA clubs owning the teams - these things are pretty small peanuts for them but they do help pay some of the leases - does MLSE own the Rock?

The Rock are owned by "a group of investors led by Bill Waters" (former GM for the Leafs). It wouldn't surprise me if MLSE has a stake. Bill's son Brad is the President of the Rock. Colorado and Buffalo are the teams listed in one of the articles that I read who are owned by NHL franchise owners.

Edit: I just read that the Minnesota Swarm are owned by the NHLs Minnesota Wild.

[ForeverAutumn]

Yesterday, the Toronto Rock pulled all the content off their web site and posted a statement to announce the cancellation of the season. Included in that statement was a quote from Club President Brad Watters.

“We are very disappointed in the outcome of this situation,” says Rock president, Brad Watters. “However, you cannot come to an agreement with a group that doesn’t want to negotiate. The players union was given enough time to accept the proposal and meet the deadline.”

That statement kinda pissed me off so I sent Brad an email (with copies to the League President and the Players Association) which included the following…

From your own Rock web site…“We are very disappointed in the outcome of this situation,” says Rock president, Brad Watters. “However, you cannot come to an agreement with a group that doesn’t want to negotiate. The players union was given enough time to accept the proposal and meet the deadline.”

It would appear from your statement that it’s the owners that don’t want to negotiate. “The players union was given enough time to accept the proposal”. The league’s position appears to be one of an all-or-nothing deal...either the players can accept the proposal or they can forfeit the season. With 2.5 months before the start of the season, certainly there was time to come up with a counter-offer. Yes, you set a deadline but deadlines can be extended. It wouldn’t be a weakness on the part of management to continue negotiations. It would be a testament of your commitment to the sport, the players and the fans.

This morning, I noticed that the letter on the Rock’s website has been revised and Watters statement removed.

[kexodusc]

Yesterday, the Toronto Rock pulled all the content off their web site and posted a statement to announce the cancellation of the season. Included in that statement was a quote from Club President Brad Watters.

“We are very disappointed in the outcome of this situation,” says Rock president, Brad Watters. “However, you cannot come to an agreement with a group that doesn’t want to negotiate. The players union was given enough time to accept the proposal and meet the deadline.”

That statement kinda pissed me off so I sent Brad an email (with copies to the League President and the Players Association) which included the following…

From your own Rock web site…“We are very disappointed in the outcome of this situation,” says Rock president, Brad Watters. “However, you cannot come to an agreement with a group that doesn’t want to negotiate. The players union was given enough time to accept the proposal and meet the deadline.”

It would appear from your statement that it’s the owners that don’t want to negotiate. “The players union was given enough time to accept the proposal”. The league’s position appears to be one of an all-or-nothing deal...either the players can accept the proposal or they can forfeit the season. With 2.5 months before the start of the season, certainly there was time to come up with a counter-offer. Yes, you set a deadline but deadlines can be extended. It wouldn’t be a weakness on the part of management to continue negotiations. It would be a testament of your commitment to the sport, the players and the fans.

This morning, I noticed that the letter on the Rock’s website has been revised and Watters statement removed.

You are 100% bad ass, FA....Is that the same Watters guy that does color commentary with Nick Kypreos and Darren Millard on Sportsnet? He's a goof.

You should start a NLL players association fan page - they guys might appreciated it and comp you with free tickets.

Wow. The difference between the NLL and other pro-sports, is at least the other owners pretend to be willing to negotiate - they fluff and spin their greed...these guys just seem arrogant.

[ForeverAutumn]

You are 100% bad ass, FA....Is that the same Watters guy that does color commentary with Nick Kypreos and Darren Millard on Sportsnet? He's a goof.

You should start a NLL players association fan page - they guys might appreciated it and comp you with free tickets.

Wow. The difference between the NLL and other pro-sports, is at least the other owners pretend to be willing to negotiate - they fluff and spin their greedy...these guys just seem arrogant.

I'm not sure who the guy on Sportsnet is. It might be Brad's father Bill. I know that Bill has a radio show here in town so he could be the Sportsnet guy too. Brad is probably in his 40's if that helps.

I was thinking about sports lockouts this morning. I think that Professional Sports is the only business where you can shut your business down for an entire year and not be concerned about losing your customers.

Certainly the lockout didn't hurt the NHL any. And the NLL doesn't appear to be concerned.

I know that if we shut our company down for a year because of a labour dispute (or for any reason actually) we wouldn't have any customers left when we reopened next year...and rightly so, we wouldn't deserve their business.

As for starting a web page. I like the idea but I wouldn't know how to begin. And even if I did, I don't have the time.

[kexodusc]

I'm not sure who the guy on Sportsnet is. It might be Brad's father Bill. I know that Bill has a radio show here in town so he could be the Sportsnet guy too. Brad is probably in his 40's if that helps.

Think you're right - Bill is the older guy, former assistant GM of the Leafs - he's a goof...sounds like Brad is too.

I was thinking about sports lockouts this morning. I think that Professional Sports is the only business where you can shut your business down for an entire year and not be concerned about losing your customers.

That's not the case - the NHL, baseball, and even the NFL have had serious problems with a few markets that didn't recover after their stoppages - the Expos were well supported, and so much better than the next best team (the Jays) back in 94. That was the unanimous World Series prediction - baseball turned its back on Montreal and the fans repaid them in kind.

Certainly the lockout didn't hurt the NHL any. And the NLL doesn't appear to be concerned.

Contrary to popular belief, the NHL isn't doing any better post-lockout in a lot of markets than it was before. The Canadian teams were helped by the cap, but more so by the 35% appreciation in the Canadian dollar. For example, the Senators played the last pre-lockout season (03-04) on a $0.73 Cdn dollar with a $42 million USD payroll. In CDN dollars that cost $57 million.
This year the salary cap is $50.3. With the loonie at par or better, you can see how teams are saving millions, and getting more for their dollar. The Leafs spent $63 million US (which was about $86 million back then). That's 36 million a year they're saving...if you were to take about $25-$30 million savings per year for all 6 Canadian teams (ticket prices have gone up with inflation, but salaries down), that's $150-$180 million in "extra revenue" per year just from the Canadian dollar over the pre-lockout era....or about $6 million per team...this accounts for $3 million of the increase in the team salary cap amount alone.

There's some markets like Tampa and Carolina, and Anaheim who had good runs and have built a real market, but then there's Detroit who are not selling out anymore and even have $9 tickets! 5 years ago that was unheard of. $9! Can't even see a Lacrosse game for that. Chicago had less than 10,000 at a game the other night. Nashville is hovering around 14,000 per game, Boston not much better...
The NHL lost a lot of fans in some markets, and in others, well, only hardcore fans watched anyway so there wasn't much loss in places like Canada, Buffalo, etc...strong hockey towns. The only benefit of the lockout was a more stable economic system that gave all markets a fighting chance. But there's lots of work to be done.

I know that if we shut our company down for a year because of a labour dispute (or for any reason actually) we wouldn't have any customers left when we reopened next year...and rightly so, we wouldn't deserve their business.

Well you're right about this - I would be replaced in a heartbeat too. But then, as much as I'd like to pretend, I'm not one of the 700 best in the world in my profession, so I'm not nearly as hot a commodity...if I was I'd probably own my own NHL team right now

As for starting a web page. I like the idea but I wouldn't know how to begin. And even if I did, I don't have the time.

You'll have to write the players flattering letters instead - you'd be amazed at the crap my sister gets from hockey and football players just for dropping a few compliments...

[ForeverAutumn]

You raise some good points. I didn't think about the effect that our increased dollar would have on profits. I guess being in a city like Toronto that strongly supports our sports franchises, I lose track that other cities don't have such a strong fan base. The only team that I've seen suffer from a strike are the Blue Jays, but I attribute their shrinking fan base more to going from Champions to the basement in only a few short years than I do to the strike.

You'll have to write the players flattering letters instead - you'd be amazed at the crap my sister gets from hockey and football players just for dropping a few compliments...

Hockey and Football players have money to spend on their fans. I'd feel guilty accepting a gift from a lacrosse player whose income is probably equal to or lower than mine.

Maybe I'll write a love letter to Mats Sundin instead.

[kexodusc]

You raise some good points. I didn't think about the effect that our increased dollar would have on profits. I guess being in a city like Toronto that strongly supports our sports franchises, I lose track that other cities don't have such a strong fan base. The only team that I've seen suffer from a strike are the Blue Jays, but I attribute their shrinking fan base more to going from Champions to the basement in only a few short years than I do to the strike.



Hockey and Football players have money to spend on their fans. I'd feel guilty accepting a gift from a lacrosse player whose income is probably equal to or lower than mine.

Maybe I'll write a love letter to Mats Sundin instead.

Ha ha..
My sister started with Pavel Bure waaaaaaaay back...he sent her autographed pix, hockey cards, etc...then she turned it into hobby...oh well.

The dollar isn't the only thing that boosted hockey though - the canadian teams came back with a vengeance, attendance up, ticket prices up, etc...the game is better now than it was, but if we took out the 6 Canadian teams (5 of which were suffering pre-lockout) the game hasn't expanded much, per se. Though in fairness, as you said, it is amazing that the NHL didn't lose much ground if any at all after shutting down for a year, even if half a dozen markets are struggling.

I have to respect the resolve of the Lacrosse players. Wonder how long they're prepared to go? If they don't cave, the owners might be on the wrong side of a calculated risk...

[ForeverAutumn]

I have to respect the resolve of the Lacrosse players. Wonder how long they're prepared to go? If they don't cave, the owners might be on the wrong side of a calculated risk...

Most of the owners are probably fat cats who could close the league and not give it a second thought. For the ones who are making money, it's probably pocket change. For the rest, it's the loss of a tax write-off. Unfortunately, I don't have much faith in the owners coming back with a compromise. They had the opportunity to do that and chose to cancel the season instead. The players have way more to lose. I hate to say it but I think that the players will end up caving.

[kexodusc]

WOO HOO!
FA, winter is saved!
http://www.tsn.ca/tsn/news_story/?ID=221344&hubname=

[ForeverAutumn]

WOO HOO!
FA, winter is saved!
http://www.tsn.ca/tsn/news_story/?ID=221344&hubname=

Oh man wouldn't that be nice! Nothing official on the NLL site yet but I'll keep my eyes on it.

Jim Jennings told the teams to release their dates with their respective venues. It'll be interesting to see whether any of the teams have actually done that yet. Even if some of the dates need to be changed, it would be really nice if the season could be saved.

Thanks for the good news Kex! I was just thinking on Tuesday that it's gonna be a really long winter with no lacrosse and no Leafs goaltending.

[ForeverAutumn]

GAME ON!!!

This time in Toronto Rock blue. I'm bleeding blue for my beloved lacrosse team!

Brad Watters was just interviewed on Bill Watters' radio show (gee, I wonder how Bill got Brad on his show with such short notice?! ). The season is on. The schedule may have be revised if any of the teams lost their dates.

I'm pumped!

Although I'm very curious to see the details of the new contract.