Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
TtT: "...maybe the norm to YOU, but not to a gay person...Did God leave you in charge of deciding what is normal for everyone?..."

RL: I didn't decide...Did God decide?...From a secular viewpoint, nature did...it's called biology.


TtT: "...they are not telling them what they are supposed to do, they are telling them what they cannot have. They are exporting what is normal for one person, has got to normal for everyone. I am sorry, but I don't buy it. Clergy today are a fine example of moral behavior. They will say hate the sin, but lover the sinner after they remove their hands off of the little boy, church secretary, or the church's finances. Bah!..."

RL: Bah! indeed...There is no legitimate precedent to support any equality under law...you are free to do as you will...just don't expect validation of your behavior...As far a clergy is concerned, I doubt that it's any thing new...however, the issues you point to are a smokescreen and have nothing to do with my statement...

TtT: "...Everything is not a choice. I didn't choose my mother or father, my skin color, where I was born..."

RL: And they didn't choose you...but they did choose to produce something that turned out to be you...you can choose to have a close relationship with them or distance yourself from them...Ask Michael Jackson about skin color...You can lie about your place of birth or even move to a place more suited to your tastes...give it a rest, could your motives be any more transparent?

TtT: "...or my sexual orientation..."

RL: I wonder what percentage of homosexuals are genetically "hardwired" and what percentage engage in that behavior just because it gets 'em off?

TtT: "... Nobody get's up one morning and decides " I want to be a straight white male", "they have easier lives in America", or " I want to be gay so I can be discriminated against, assaulted, denied equal rights, and be generally isolated by narrow minded people too scared to evolve pass ignorance."

RL: Oh yeah that's an evenhanded presentation...Homophobia? It's an asinine word...an asinine concept...well considering said presentation...No. they engage in homosexual behavior because of the physical aspects...whatever else may develop and for whatever reason, the physicality seems to be of paramount interest(as it is in hetero relationships)...it's embeded deep in our lizard brain; surely the biological "urge- to-merge" cannot be denied...however, it can be controlled...one makes a conscious choice in the matter.

TtT: "...Sometimes nature makes the call, and who are you to decide that nature is wrong...."

RL: I think I covered this somewhere along the line...biology...lizard brain...hardwired vs. preference...

TtT: For hundreds of years this country accommodated the lifestyle of the racist normality. For years this country has accommodated the lifestyles of the rich and powerful. In both of these cases someone had to suffer to support these lifestyles. The blacks had to suffer to support what whites considered as normal. When it was finally realized that owning people, and further discriminated against them was wrong, the TRIED to make a change. Anyone who tries to justify discrimination is part of the problem with this country, whether is be skin color, social class, or sexual orientation.

RL: This country...what about the world? Subjugation via discrimination is not unique to a time or place. Ignoring my earlier history lesson doesn't mean it doesn't exist...People are definitely "hardwired" to exert control to some extent...it's not just in the past...it happens today, all over the world...you just don't hear about it because the media doesn't focus on it...the non-whites who engage in it don't focus on it...it's just white America and a bunch of old dead white guys fault...yeah, right...

TtT: "...Nobody should be slighted. Why do you think that only one mindset is the right mindset? I usually called this kind of thinking narrowmindedness. Respecting the rights and opinions of everyone is actually a rise in intellectual consciousness. America need that right now, too many believe that we HAVE to discriminate against some one, or some group of people, or things just are not right..."

RL: Just so much Dr. Feelgood inclusionary claptrap...Some time ago Wm. A. Henry wrote a book entitled "In Defense Of Elitism" which was reviewed int the NYTimes Book Review. The more salient parts of said review follow...

"Henry notes that the 'worst aspect' of P.C. follies is 'the erosion of the intellectual confidence to sort out, and rank, competing values.' Every effort to do so courts the charge of 'insensitivity'. But every failure to do so encourages mediocrity and a sentimentalizing dishonesty about life."

Continuing, "Henry's book offers a splendid anatomy of these problems, but his forthrightness is certain to raise howls of indignation. Item: 'Every corner of the human race may have something to contribute. That does not mean all contributions are equal... is scarcely the same thing to put a man on the moon as it is to put a bone in your nose.' Again: ' The unvarnished truth is this: You could eliminate every woman writer, painter and composer from the caveman era to the present moment and not significantly deform the course of Western culture'."

And finally, "It is painful to admit, I know, but Henry is right. The only real question is what to do about it. There are two main responses. One is to deny reality and pretend there are no important individuals or cultures, that all have achieved the same level of distinction. That is the P.C. alternative, now in ascendance. The other is the response of Henry's elites, those 'who ruthlessly seek out and encourage intelligence and who believe that competiton--and, inevitably, some measure of failure--will do more for character than coddling ever can."

TtT: "I think you might be out of your element here. Do you clearly understand why he destroyed those towns? Do you understand that God doesn't do that kind of thing anymore because of Jesus's sacrifice on the cross? And to answer your question, I subscribe to the loving God. The angry fire and brimstone approach has never led anyone to christ."

RL: Are you same biblical/religious scholar? Out of MY element? Do you subscribe to the theory of the "end days"? Sorta looks that way to me..."end days" that is...The "loving God" certainly seems to be gettin' p!$$ed...and I can't blame Him...

As to your next statement, there isn't enough time to address the how's, why's and wherefore's involved...suffice it to say it's the endless circle, the needle-in-a-haystack...as to the latter part, in a nutshell, biologically-based, non-Platonic, physical attraction, however one is natural, the other is not, regardless of how "natural" it may seem...

TtT: "....And to the last part of your other post. Anytime you have a group of white slave owning men sitting around a bunch of tables writing the words" all men are created equal", and not supporting that with their actions, they are nothing more than a bunch of white men sitting around a table writing inspiring, but hollow words...."

RL: Ignore history and indulge in your blinkered 21st cenury mindset at your peril...and I earlier forgot to mention feudalism and vassals and then there's indentured servitude and were you aware that some free blacks owned slaves? Or that some skilled black craftsman were allowed to hire themselves out, earning the money to buy their freedom...just another commodity to Masa...

jimHJJ(...as Yogi Berra said "you could look it up"...)
Never said its how it has to be or written in stone,only mo which i have a right to. I said it had NOTHING to do with god,it just mo. It is alright that i belive this way isnt it or do i have to go by how you think it should be because its starting to sound that way.