Let's talk about gas.

[GMichael]

Sticks, no doubt you're aware that the left vs.right thing dates back to the 19th century French General Assembly where parties representing the wealthy and upper classes sat to the speaker's right and those representing the poor and working classes sat to the speaker's left.

So a left-wing party properly represents the poor and working classes. These are not necessarily socialist parties (that is, advocating government ownership of industry), but they do strongly tend to support programs that assist the less-than-wealthy, if necessary, at the expense of the rich. Typical policies include:

• Universal education through university
• Universal health care
• Strong workplace safety regulation
• Public, or mandated private, pensions and benefit plans
• Progressive taxation, (i.e. tax the rich proportionally more).

Commonly but not necessarily, (or even typically), left-wing parties:

• Support regulation of industry to the benefit of consumers
• Mandate protection of the environment
• Tend to protectionist trade policy
• Are closely connected with organized labor.

Which American party shares most of these attributes or does most of these things? Neither.

Would it be good for America to have a left-wing party? Obviously extreme left-wing policies if enacted, such as universal state control of the economy and ownership of industry as practiced by the Communists, would be a bad thing. But it might not hurt the U.S. at all to move a bit closer to the examples of the Scandinavian countries that still manage to afford ordinary people with exemplary protections and benefits despite the pressures of gobalization. In any case it definitely wouldn't hurt the U.S. to have such left-wing party in competition with the right-wing Republican and centrist Democrats.

So what we really have here now are two right wing parties. One that openly supports the rich and another who claims they are left wingers but actually stick it to the poor just as bad. Kinda makes it tough to choose. Where's Richard Pryor when we need him most?

[Ajani]

Let me try to attack a few of the key points in this thread:

1) Oil Prices - clearly inflated due to greed all around... sure the oil companies are making record profits, but as has been stated before: the real offenders are the Saudis and the US Government. The Gov for laying on such heavy taxes on an already overpriced commodity and the Saudis for jacking prices up... But frankly, why shouldn't they? If the world refuses to spend the time trying to explore alternative fuel sources and chooses to instead make a number of middle eastern countries extremely rich... well what do you expect? Only now that prices are jacked up to the ridiculous, do we see the kind of meaningful effort to find other energy alternatives emerging... as there was no real incentive before...

2) US Politics - (I get my news from the internet & US Cable: CNN, Fox News, Headline New etc)... Let me sum this up as eloquently as possible: Both parties suck... but since there is no third option, US citizens need to choose one....

3) Clintons and Bushes: Yes the Clintons are pathological liars BUT it's very hard to argue against how much better the US economy was under Bill Clinton than under either Bush. Both Bushes were focused on war in Iraq and putting the economy in recession. Clinton maybe the typical fast talking (lying) politician but he was arguably the best of old school politics...

4) Obama and McCain: Obama has great speeches. So It would be interesting to see if he can really deliver... McCain has well... ummm... well... I just don't get what McCain is marketing himself as... Before he became the nominee, he was being attacked by the party leaders as being "too liberal"... yet as soon as he clinched the nomination he moved to kissing Bush's @$$ and got branded as being "Bush's 3rd term"... Now that Obama is attacking him as being an extension of Bush's failed policies, he is trying to go back to being a liberal republican... ummm what??? Truth is that neither Obama nor McCain has really earned the Presidency IMO, so it really just comes down to who inspires voters at election time... Either option will be better than Bush though...

[Rich-n-Texas]

Is Ralph Nader still in the picture?

[Ajani]

Is Ralph Nader still in the picture?

Was he ever really in the picture???

[trollgirl]

Was he ever really in the picture???

He was just lucky that he was only pointedly ignored. Had he been a real threat, he might have ended up suicided...

Laz

[thekid]

Let me try to attack a few of the key points in this thread:

1) Oil Prices - clearly inflated due to greed all around... sure the oil companies are making record profits, but as has been stated before: the real offenders are the Saudis and the US Government. The Gov for laying on such heavy taxes on an already overpriced commodity and the Saudis for jacking prices up... But frankly, why shouldn't they? If the world refuses to spend the time trying to explore alternative fuel sources and chooses to instead make a number of middle eastern countries extremely rich... well what do you expect? Only now that prices are jacked up to the ridiculous, do we see the kind of meaningful effort to find other energy alternatives emerging... as there was no real incentive before...

2) US Politics - (I get my news from the internet & US Cable: CNN, Fox News, Headline New etc)... Let me sum this up as eloquently as possible: Both parties suck... but since there is no third option, US citizens need to choose one....

3) Clintons and Bushes: Yes the Clintons are pathological liars BUT it's very hard to argue against how much better the US economy was under Bill Clinton than under either Bush. Both Bushes were focused on war in Iraq and putting the economy in recession. Clinton maybe the typical fast talking (lying) politician but he was arguably the best of old school politics...

4) Obama and McCain: Obama has great speeches. So It would be interesting to see if he can really deliver... McCain has well... ummm... well... I just don't get what McCain is marketing himself as... Before he became the nominee, he was being attacked by the party leaders as being "too liberal"... yet as soon as he clinched the nomination he moved to kissing Bush's @$$ and got branded as being "Bush's 3rd term"... Now that Obama is attacking him as being an extension of Bush's failed policies, he is trying to go back to being a liberal republican... ummm what??? Truth is that neither Obama nor McCain has really earned the Presidency IMO, so it really just comes down to who inspires voters at election time... Either option will be better than Bush though...

AGREED!

I actually find it a little amusing that the McCain of the 2000 campaign was saying a lot of things that Obama is saying today in terms of the status quo. However to get the nomination in 08 he wrapped his arms (literally and figuratively) to the same people who were trashing him in 2000.

As for Nader he was relevant in about 1964 when the Corvair was on the road... but talking about stretching your 15 minutes of fame.....

[audio_dude]

But I'm sure John McCain will get it all straightened away in his first six months in office.

thats if he doesn't drop dead before then.

Thats if he can even beat the Barack Attack.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Was he ever really in the picture???

My reference to Ralphie boy was just my conservative little way of acknowledging the view that an independant candidate would be the best fix for this current mess we're in. The Democrat and Republican parties are well oiled machines and are (as was probably already mentioned) too... in the pockets of major corporations by way of big campaign contributions (and yes, Haliburton/Cheney is a good example) and all the other shenanigans that either the American public is unaware of or is apathetic towards.

The process that allows this kind of intercourse to flourish needs to be interrupted and it looks like two things need to happen. First, the population needs to quit whining and start participating (VOTE!), which could next lead to a proper Federal government that is FOR the people and operates despite the greedy power mongers that are the CEO's instead of in colusion with them.

(Yeah I know... same ol' same ol', but once again this place is dead so I thought I'd add to my post count. )

[Feanor]

My reference to Ralphie boy was just my conservative little way of acknowledging the view that an independant candidate would be the best fix for this current mess we're in. The Democrat and Republican parties are well oiled machines and are (as was probably already mentioned) too... in the pockets of major corporations by way of big campaign contributions (and yes, Haliburton/Cheney is a good example) and all the other shenanigans that either the American public is unaware of or is apathetic towards.
...

Rich, who do did you have in mind for an independant candidate? Rush Limbaugh?

Me, I'd rather have Ralph, which isn't say all that much. But see my discussion of left-wing parties, above. Any and all right-wing parties will attract wealth interests' support; then too most of them seek it.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Rich, who do did you have in mind for an independant candidate? Rush Limbaugh?

I think Rush is still in rehab isn't he?

Me, I'd rather have Ralph, which isn't say all that much. But see my discussion of left-wing parties, above. Any and all right-wing parties will attract wealth interests' support; then too most of them seek it.

I read it, and learned from it as well.

[thekid]

[QUOTE=Rich-n-Texas]I think Rush is still in rehab isn't he?


I don't think there is a 12-step program for what ails Rush...
Oh wait, yes there is its called K-12.........

[bobsticks]

The Democrat and Republican parties are well oiled machines and are (as was probably already mentioned) too... in the pockets of major corporations by way of big campaign contributions (and yes, Haliburton/Cheney is a good example) and all the other shenanigans that either the American public is unaware of or is apathetic towards.)

Jah, and looking at the timeline reveals more. I think it's clear that I am not a Bush apologist but erebody notice that gas prices didn't start spiraling outta control until 18 months ago when the Dems took control of Congress?

[GMichael]

Jah, and looking at the timeline reveals more. I think it's clear that I am not a Bush apologist but erebody notice that gas prices didn't start spiraling outta control until 18 months ago when the Dems took control of Congress?

SHHhhhhhh..... You'll start a riot.

[thekid]

Jah, and looking at the timeline reveals more. I think it's clear that I am not a Bush apologist but erebody notice that gas prices didn't start spiraling outta control until 18 months ago when the Dems took control of Congress?

Well I am trying to stay neutral in this pi**ing contest of a thread but....

The quote/observation Sticks makes is the current play being called in the GOP huddle but I have yet heard what was the legislative act that was passed in the last 18 months that the Dems passed that is the cause/effect of high gas prices.

Nancy Pelosi's House Dems and an evenly divided Senate are not passing legislation over any veto that Bush has excercised. I have not heard of any legislation that is being held up that would lower gas prices. (Please lets not drag out that Artic Refuge drilling red herring....)

As is typical with Washington, both sides of the aisle are trying to use the higher gas prices to bash the other side and are playing to their respective bases;

Dems = Corporate greed over the interests of the average Joe.
GOP = Tree huggers are causing us to leave untapped the billions of barrels of oil here in the good ol' USA.

Meanwhile nothing gets done and oil goes up, stockmarket goes down and we all lose...

[trollgirl]

Well I am trying to stay neutral in this pi**ing contest of a thread but....

The quote/observation Sticks makes is the current play being called in the GOP huddle but I have yet heard what was the legislative act that was passed in the last 18 months that the Dems passed that is the cause/effect of high gas prices.

Nancy Pelosi's House Dems and an evenly divided Senate are not passing legislation over any veto that Bush has excercised. I have not heard of any legislation that is being held up that would lower gas prices. (Please lets not drag out that Artic Refuge drilling red herring....)

As is typical with Washington, both sides of the aisle are trying to use the higher gas prices to bash the other side and are playing to their respective bases;

Dems = Corporate greed over the interests of the average Joe.
GOP = Tree huggers are causing us to leave untapped the billions of barrels of oil here in the good ol' USA.

Meanwhile nothing gets done and oil goes up, stockmarket goes down and we all lose...

"Dems"? "GOP"? Did it ever occur to you that me just might have a one-party system in this country? I don't remember who it was, and I wish I did, but he said, "We're ALL Republicans now." Do they not all serve the same masters? Can you really tell them apart except by checking for the "R" or "D" by the name? I wonder if it's tatooed on the backs of their necks?! Like labor unions and a free press, third parties have been eliminated as a political force.

Laz

[thekid]

"Dems"? "GOP"? Did it ever occur to you that me just might have a one-party system in this country? I don't remember who it was, and I wish I did, but he said, "We're ALL Republicans now." Do they not all serve the same masters? Can you really tell them apart except by checking for the "R" or "D" by the name? I wonder if it's tatooed on the backs of their necks?! Like labor unions and a free press, third parties have been eliminated as a political force.

Laz

Well I would tend to agree with you. Dems or GOP have become more brand names of the same product like soap. If use Tide or Gain do you really see brighter colors and whiter whites??????? Not really........in the end it is still just soap.

Until the influence of $ is removed from the process there will not be a truly independent party or candidate. Obama's candidacy is interesting in that it is raising most of its money from lots of small donations from individuals via the net. If this becomes the model for future campaigns it is possible perhaps that a candidate with strong popular appeal could be a force outside the traditional 2-party system.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am not as positive about the direction of this country than most other here are. This is just my opinion, and my opinion only.

A. The Dems and the GOP are too close to big business interests to care about poor or middle class working people. It has been seemingly impossible for either to draft legislation that preserves the interests of big business, but helps the working as well. It has become an either/or situation with them. The only way to change this is to get rid of money in the election campaigns, and publically finance them with identical monies for all. No outside contributions PERIOD. That way nobody is beholden to anyone, each person vote counts, and my senator and congressperson can spend more time tackling the issues rather than worry about raising money. Lets face it, I have a big corporation giving me $100,000, and a private person $2300. With campaigns so expensive, who do you think gets my ear? That is the problem.

B. Relying on oil is a dead proposition in the current time. There are too many parties consuming too much now for it to every become an affordable commodity. If we drill off our coast, in Anwar, or even under Los Angeles, who's to guarantee that that oil will come back to the American public? Oil is bought and sold in a market where EVERYONE all over the world has access, so do you really think that the oil companies will keep oil drilled in the US to the US, or will it sell it to the highest bidder like the free market dictates? Even if every driver in this country switches to hybrid cars, the cost of oil will not go down as long as Indian and Chinese governments subsidize oil destined for their countries. Folks there will just keep consuming just like we have in this country for the last 80+ years. It is time for all of us to let go of oil, and embrace alternative fuels, electric cars, and fuel cell cars, and get away from oil all together with. It is time for this nation to set up a mandate(just like we did to get to the moon) to develop a cleaner way to process coal into synthetic oil, since that is the only self sustaining resource we have. Drilling for more oil is not the answer, as we can never find enough to make ourselves self supporting. Other resources have come along since the gas powered engine, and we need to take advantage of it NOW while this country has the finances to do so. Everything has got to change, and our dependency and desire for oil must change as well.

C. One thing that I have learned in life is nothing is going to change until it seriously effects the powers that be. This is why in over 300 years, racism is still a major problem in this country. It is not in the best interest of the prevailing culture to tackle or eleminate racism because it shrinks the control pie to smaller slices, and nobody wants a smaller slice of the pie. This goes for economics as well. As long as our Senator and Congresspeople get free health care for life, their own banking system, sweetheart deals on loans, drivers and government auto's to drive them around, we are not going to see a damn thing change in health care, banking fee's and interest, the problems that led to the mortgage crises will crop back up, and we will never see any relief on gas prices. As long as the can give themselves raises in the middle of the night, then we will continue to see our financial condition deteriorate. Right now there is no penalty for any elected official to not act on behalf of the ordinary citizen. Voting them out does not do much, they just get another government job elsewhere.

D. Lets face it, the problems that exist in our country are of our own doing. We have checked out of our own political process(or given up on it), we are not voting OUR self interest but our parties, we have bought into the notion that we must buy, buy, buy, and consume like their is no tomorrow even if it puts us into neck deep debt. We have decided that we don't need to conserve fuel, a commodity we do not produce ourselves, and we have allowed American based companies to shaft the American public by getting tax breaks, but sending jobs to other countries. The problem is, nobody is afraid of the American public, not the government, and not big business, and they should be.

It is our fault that we have become so arrogant and self absorb as a country, that we have isolated ourselves. The policies our government has put into place have served to get us hated in every corner of the globe, with our tacit permission. We do far too much complaining, and not nearly enough action to change things. We have become satisfied with mediocrity, engrossed in the pursuit of a bargain(even if it means your neighbor get laid off), have become lost to what quality is, are quick to blame others and eschew personal responsibility, and have become pawns in a far larger game that we have a tremendous stake in.

All great societies have had a rise and a fall. Current conditions in this country resemble the beginning of the fall of the Roman Empire. We have become pampered and self absorbed, and that is weakening us, much like it did the Roman society just before it fell. You have a disproportionate concentrations of wealth distributed to an extremely small group of people just like Rome did before it fell. You have the powers that be taking advantage of the working people, just like Rome did before it fell. The simularities are there, and it is scary to realize that Edward Gibbons did all this research into the fall of Rome, and we have not paid any attention to it.

Unless we get away from oil, the balance of power will shift towards Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezula, and all of the other oil producing countries. If we do not get back our manufacturing base, then China will also eclipse us in power. The bottom line is whoever has the most wealth, has the most power. That is a local, state, country and world applicable rule. I am afraid the American public has already given its power away to these entities. It has certainly given away its good sense. We blame our politician for all of our woes, but we sent them to DC. What we need to do is make them very fearful of their non action, and make them pay dearly for it.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

My reference to Ralphie boy was just my conservative little way of acknowledging the view that an independant candidate would be the best fix for this current mess we're in. The Democrat and Republican parties are well oiled machines and are (as was probably already mentioned) too... in the pockets of major corporations by way of big campaign contributions (and yes, Haliburton/Cheney is a good example) and all the other shenanigans that either the American public is unaware of or is apathetic towards.

The process that allows this kind of intercourse to flourish needs to be interrupted and it looks like two things need to happen. First, the population needs to quit whining and start participating (VOTE!), which could next lead to a proper Federal government that is FOR the people and operates despite the greedy power mongers that are the CEO's instead of in colusion with them.

(Yeah I know... same ol' same ol', but once again this place is dead so I thought I'd add to my post count. )

I cannot believe I agree with you on something rotten Rich round guy!!!

[thekid]

Good points Sir TT!!

[bobsticks]

I cannot believe I agree with you on something rotten Rich round guy!!!

I would feel rather violated.

[bobsticks]

Lotsa stuff

Terrence, I agree with much of what you say...although I don't know that I would describe racism as a "major" problem in our country. I suspect that "classism" is far more prevalent and destructive within our communities. I would also submit that many acts of indifference and apathy are wrongfully ascribed to racial bigotry. Of course, it would stand to reason that most of the people I would surround myself with would be fairly liberal so it's possible that I'm missing part of the picture and nitpicking over the word "major" but nonetheless...

That said, I agree with the crux of your post that we, as a nation, have brought on many of our ills through our tax-and-spend, spend-not-save decision making. On my part I have pledged to be completely debt free in this world by mid next year and may even accomplish this by year's end but not everyone can be in that position...especially in the working and lower classes. The biggest social injustice as I see it is that which we perpetually commit against the working poor. Deception in taxation (payroll taxes) to ridiculous spending to treat-the-symptom social care are pervasive throughout our system. It is really no wonder so many decide to engage in lawless behavior.

And, at the same time, how deeply into paternalism do we expect our government to delve? Governments can't and shouldn't control thoughts and feelings and yet this seems to be either expected or allowed or even tacitly agreed upon. With the largest generation of Americans getting to retire and the cost associated with such we are going to have to make some tough decisions---strip it down to bare bones as it were. If I were to father a child this day I would be more concerned with the improvement of our math and science curricula than whether that child was empathetic toward the plight of Bangeldeshi women.

We seem steadfastly resolute in forming a society based not on any real accomplishment but the fervent belief that, at all costs, everyone should feel good about themselves at all times regardless of merit...which may be good in the long run since our government is offering tax incentives for companies to ship production-based jobs offshore.

The tie to oil is, of course, that we're gleefuly succoring on the swine that our own government allows to extort our life savings and, indeed, it arms them militarily...and we expected something else? Excuse me while adjust my Tammany Hall pillow and go to the fridge for a Shin Kanemaru "Sagawa Kyubin" bar. We reap what we sew and the lack of specific accountability has led us to this point. So, yes, I too agree with Rich no matter how disdainful that might be

I predict that within this century you will see the first election in which the question will not be if the first woman or African-American can get elected, but whether a third party candidate can be viable via the internet. That would be the only medium by which a candidate without major corporate funding to access the masses...and even then a massive McGovern-style freak/youth vote would be required.

The only thing for sure is that the future of America is fraught with challenging and troubling waters to navigate lest the will of the people be subordinate to oligarchy.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

IMO racism, and classism walk arm and arm. Careful scrutiny of these complex issues bares this out.

If you jail minorities at a far greater rate than the majority, stick them with a criminal record that sticks for the rest of their life, getting a job is more difficult, and they are consigned to poverty or the lower class for life. That is what is happening now.

Raising the GPA that qualifies you for entrance is also another form of racism which leads to classism. To qualify for entrance to the University of California at Berkeley require at least a 4.25 GPA. How is a poor minority(or any poor person) to get into this school without college prep courses that by the way, their high school cannot afford. Or the fact that the really good qualified teachers tend to go to schools where the students come from realitively affluent families, leaving the poor with teachers that are underqualified and apathetic towards their students.

Classism and racism used to be seperate discussions. Now they are joined at the hip when you dig deeper than the surface.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I would feel rather violated.

Gee... The thanks I get for wishing you a happy fourth.

Yes, I had a *blast* yesterday. Still smelling gunpowder!

[Feanor]

I'm disturbed by trend here to described the Republicans and and Democrats basically same, (in the pockets of wealthy, powerful interests), making it ipso facto unimportant which one you vote for.

As a foreign observer I acknowledge the fact that neither really represents the middle and working classes of your country. Recall that I did discourse at some length on the subject of a U.S. third, (left-wing), party. Nevertheless I think there are sufficient, reliable difference between these the Reps and Dems for a voter to make a reasoned choice.

In democracies it is normal, sadly, that they we have to find and vote the least bad party or candidate.

[Ajani]

I'm disturbed by trend here to described the Republicans and and Democrats basically same, (in the pockets of wealthy, powerful interests), making it ipso facto unimportant which one you vote for.

As a foreign observer I acknowledge the fact that neither really represents the middle and working classes of your country. Recall that I did discourse at some length on the subject of a U.S. third, (left-wing), party. Nevertheless I think there are sufficient, reliable difference between these the Reps and Dems for a voter to make a reasoned choice.

In democracies it is normal, sadly, that they we have to find and vote the least bad party or candidate.

Despite a really brilliant post by Sir T, I do have to agree with this point...

Sure both parties suck... but lumping them as the same, rather than taking the time to at least vote for the least bad of the two, does NOTHING to improve America. Voting for the less bad party at least sends a message to the other one to step up their game and try to get even less bad than the one you voted for... and while both parties spend the next part of forever getting incrementally less bad, you might just find that a realistic outside option turns up...

You have to vote, write letters, protest, whatever... if you really hope to see any change... throwing up your hands and saying they're all corrupt will only let the situation continue....