GM wants 22 Billion $$ bailout

[blackraven]

Feanor, your taking me all wrong. I never said that health care in this country is better than in Canada. I think that the system is broken here and needs to be fixed. My point is that the public here is not going to like it. I think that there is going to be a 2 tier system for people that can afford private insurance and those that cannot. People that dont have pvt insurance will have to wait longer for elective procedures just like in Canada. And as for HMO's there are good one's and there are bad ones. I live in Minnesota which is a big HMO state and the medicine here is some of the best in the country. And not every one belongs to an HMO.

And you missed the boat about taxes. Universal health care will need to be funded by every one, not just people earning $250K and more. We are talking a trillion dollars for health care and 300 million people, not 30 million. That money will come from increased taxes across the board. And that means big tax increases for every one. Its not just health care that needs to be fixed. The baby boomers are getting older and will need nursing homes, assisted living and transitional care units. Most people here cant afford this. In addition, social security is running out of money. They will need to take even more out of our paychecks to increase funding so it will be there for our children.

And I am in know way asking for a shoulder to cry on or sympathy for how much I pay in taxes. And dont criticize me for making as much as I do. I come from a lower middle class family who did not own a home. I worked through HS and college and worked damn hard to get where I am now. Another 4 years med school and 3 more years specialty training in emergency medicine. Thousands of dollars in debt. I choose this path in life just as you could have. We all make our own bed and have to sleep in it. And chew on this for a moment. Doctors live shorter lives than the general public and emergency physicians live an average or 10yrs less because we work rotating shifts and the stress that is involved in the job. I work every other weekend, every other holiday, and rotate through 7 different shifts. I work under the constant threat of law suits with out the malpractice protection that Canadian doctors have ( Canadian docs can be sued but there is a limit on damages).
I work hard and like my job otherwise you would have to be nuts to do what I do. I count my blessings every day that I am gainfully employed and make the kind of money I do and that I am able to enjoy the fruits of my labor. This profession was not handed to me on a silver platter, it came from hard work, determination and my need and willingness to help others. So dont cry on my shoulder because I make more money than you do.

Sheesh, this all started because I expressed my feelings about the 700 billion dollar bail out!

Peace and no hard feelings!

[thekid]

As a former GM employee I could go on and on about their mismanagement and short term approach to their products but the fact is that in this economy we can't let the Big 3 fail. If this was happening 2 or 3 years ago when the economy could somewhat "afford" to have 2 or 3 million people suddenly hit the unemployment rolls I'd say good riddance. Another aspect that people are forgetting in all of this is the huge number of retirees all of these companies have. Should they go under these retirees would probably overwhelm the Medicare system in several states and those costs along with the costs associated with the loss of 2-3 million jobs will far exceed the money being asked for by the Big 3.

This could be an opportunity for the government (I know this is wishful thinking,,,) to mandate the type of change in product line, management and labor that the executives of these companies have failed to implement in the last 30 years. It could be possible that having a stake in these companies in conjunction with meaningful energy policies would result in safe fuel efficient cars.

[Feanor]

Feanor, your taking me all wrong. I never said that health care in this country is better than in Canada. I think that the system is broken here and needs to be fixed. My point is that the public here is not going to like it. I think that there is going to be a 2 tier system for people that can afford private insurance and those that cannot. People that dont have pvt insurance will have to wait longer for elective procedures just like in Canada. ...

For a start, the whole waiting list thing has grossly exaggerated.

The two-tier system is a very bad option and has been throughly reject by Canadian voters. Common sense ought to tell us that the best resource and talent will be drawn to the the "upper" tier, rendering health care inferior for the "lower" tier. This just defeats the whole concept and intent of a unversal system.

The British system tolerates private health care but in a particular way that pretty much ensure the survival of the public, universal system. In the UK you pay for your private services 100% and there are tight restrictions on the insurance you can buy to cover private costs, thus the public system isn't undermined.

...
And you missed the boat about taxes. Universal health care will need to be funded by every one, not just people earning $250K and more. We are talking a trillion dollars for health care and 300 million people, not 30 million. That money will come from increased taxes across the board. And that means big tax increases for every one. Its not just health care that needs to be fixed. The baby boomers are getting older and will need nursing homes, assisted living and transitional care units. Most people here cant afford this. In addition, social security is running out of money. They will need to take even more out of our paychecks to increase funding so it will be there for our children. ...

What? me missing the point? Not. Of course taxes will increase and for everyone, (although empolyers will have lower benefit costs), because that is indeed how the system will be paid for. But hello! understand that the total, economy-wide cost of health care is likely to go down. People will pay taxes instead of premiums.

Again, this pathological aversion to taxes and any apprehension that taxes can represent excellent value for the services provided. At the same time, the rigid dogma that governments can't do anything properly or efficiently. It's really pathetic and huge impedement to social progress in the U.S. and Canada equally.

...
And I am in know way asking for a shoulder to cry on or sympathy for how much I pay in taxes. And dont criticize me for making as much as I do.
...
I work under the constant threat of law suits with out the malpractice protection that Canadian doctors have ( Canadian docs can be sued but there is a limit on damages).
...

B/R, don't get me wrong. I don't begrudge you your successful career and I'm not suggesting you haven't earned your success. I'm saying only that successful people like you ought to realize the your financial status, though earned, would not happen if you lived on a desert island, and you ought to be prepared to pay the greater share in order to continue to enjoy a healthy and just society -- on which your high incomes depend.

Where malpractice is concerned, I gather it's less of problem in Canada. In Canada there are limits on pain-and-suffering awards and no such a thing as punative awards. Also, there are restrictions on conditional remuneration for lawyers, unless I'm mistaken.

[Feanor]

As a former GM employee I could go on and on about their mismanagement and short term approach to their products but the fact is that in this economy we can't let the Big 3 fail. If this was happening 2 or 3 years ago when the economy could somewhat "afford" to have 2 or 3 million people suddenly hit the unemployment rolls I'd say good riddance. Another aspect that people are forgetting in all of this is the huge number of retirees all of these companies have. Should they go under these retirees would probably overwhelm the Medicare system in several states and those costs along with the costs associated with those associated with the loss of 2-3 million jobs will gar exceed the money being asked for by the Big 3.

This could be an opportunity for the government (I know this is wishful thinking,,,) to mandate the type of change in product line, management and labor that the executives of these companies have failed to implement in the last 30 years. It could be possible that having a stake in these companies in conjunction with meaningful energy policies would result in safe fuel efficient cars.

... I fear. Just can't let big employers tank at this point, though they might richly deserve it.

But government "mandates" regarding business policies? Please, that's "socialism", (per some definitions), and we all know that socialism is in the same order of depravity as murder and incest.

[Ajani]

But government "mandates" regarding business policies? Please, that's "socialism", (per some definitions), and we all know that socialism is in the same order of depravity as murder and incest.

Socialism is baaad... What would true socialism lead to??? I'll tell you what - Star Trek!!! A universe with no money or poverty and where people chose career paths based on their interests and abilities (instead of which profession makes the most money)...

Imagine what an evil world that would be, where you are free to do the job that you really love .... and have sex with hot alien babes...

[blackraven]

Sorry guys, especially Feanor. I hope there are no hard feelings. I broke my rule of never discussing politics with any one except family.
I hope you accept my apology for going off!

Larry

[Feanor]

Sorry guys, especially Feanor. I hope there are no hard feelings. I broke my rule of never discussing politics with any one except family.
I hope you accept my apology for going off!

Larry

Larry, absolutely no probem for me -- nothing you've said has offended or requires apology as far as I'm concerned. I suppose I ought offer reciprocal apology: you've got it, folks.

For me civil, well-informed and well-reasoned debate is fun and instructive, not acrimonious. I don't take disagreement as a challenge to my personal worth under such circumstances. Unfortunately I do sometimes forget that others can be less thick-skinned.

OK, I'm different but I don't shy from political debate; (you might have noticed). As for religious debate, well, I'm ready but this I know fewer people can handle.

[3-LockBox]

Universal Healthcare...fvck the Martians! I coulda sworn I started a thread about something else. I'll say again...if Canada's health care setup is so great, why are the Canadians with money continuing to seek health care down in the states (that's a fact).

Anyhoo...

Look, I realize bailing out a big comapny like GM might save a lot of jobs...but not really every job. I'm betting they get their bailout and layoff huge numbers of people anyway. I am against government bailouts to corporations that piss away money. GM is a piss-poor company and have been for decades. They don't 'get it'. They get this bailout and they'll be in hot water again in a few years cuz they stiil won't 'get it'. I'll bet you that the first things they shore up with a huge gov't bailout will be the middle and upper managment bonuses. They'll use what's left over to build factories out of the country.