Free... At last!

[StevenSurprenant]

A mixing engineer would first ask what is wrong with YOUR system

Hey T, we can get back to your other problem later, but I thought I'd give this issue one last try.

You keep bringing this intelligibility issue up, but even though I explained it to you, you don't seem to understand. First off, this started when I complained about the directionality of the center speaker distracting me. I proposed using additional speakers mounted higher to bring the dialog up to center screen. To clarify, I tried the center speaker both below and above the TV, each time an inch or two from the TV frame. Follow me so far? You explained to me that additional speakers would create combing and reduce the intelligibility of the dialog. I already knew this and technically you were correct. After I added the extra speakers I told you that even with combing, this arraignment was the lesser evil. Even with these minor audio aberrations, I no longer found myself looking at the bottom of the screen when people spoke. When switching the extra speakers in and out, these aberrations were barely noticeable. I would call that a success. You became upset and insisted that I use one center because that was how the media was recorded and let my mind do its job into fooling me that the audio was coming from the screen, disregarding the fact that after years of trying it this way, it didn't work for me. It didn't work on any system that I listened to and some were far better than mine. I will say this, this directionality would lessened the further I would be from the screen and center speaker, but normal size rooms put a limit on this.

Okay, we didn't see eye to eye on this but you kept bringing up the intelligibility issue of multiple speakers. I segued this to the issue of recording quality. You kept insisting, and still do, that it is my equipment. I told you then that this intelligibility issue was independent of what equipment was used. It didn't matter if it was a high end surround system of just listening on the TV's built in speakers. I might add that this issue has been around long before surround sound found it's way into homes. If it were strictly the equipments fault then all movies would have this issue, but all movies don't. Just so you understand, every time this happens, everyone in the room has problems understanding the dialog.

This brings us to your comment about “When one complains about the dynamic range or dialog ineligibility of a soundtrack on film, A mixing engineer would first ask what is wrong with YOUR system...”. This is a rather ignorant statement. A good engineer would first ask what movie are they referring to and listen to that before jumping to the conclusion that it's the equipments fault. Common sense, don't you think? You can't assume that all movies are of the same quality.

There is another possible issue that may occur due to the way recordings are made in the studio. In the studio, playback is made at much higher sound levels than most people listen to at home. I'm guessing here, but in the studio or movie theater, dynamic peaks are over 100db and even, in some cases, over 110db. Normal listening levels for speech are around 60-65db. Can you see where this is going? I've found that at home I listen at about 80db max, some people even lower If I turn a movie recorded at 100db down where the peaks are 80db, what happens to the dialog? It goes down to about 40db peak and that's for the loudest parts of the dialog. Follow me? During movies where there is a great deal of banging, clanging, and booms going on, the dialog is buried 40db+ below that level, even more for the quieter sounds. I'm going to clarify this so we understand each other. If I am having a conversation with someone at normal levels and someone 5 feet away starts using a jack hammer, it would be almost impossible to hear the other person. If this were a recording that I were playing back on my system and I turned it down when the jack hammer starts, the dialog is reduce to a level more akin to a whisper in a library. I'm over explaining this, but you seem to need it...

I will also add that during loud movies, if I play it loud, I can hear the dialog better. This supports your claim that it is clear in the studio. However, after the movie is finished, I need quiet to recover from the intense audio assault. If the noise levels effect people this way, it's not good for their health to play at those volumes.

Well, I hope that clarifies the subject.

I will add one more thing, which I've done in the past and which you've ignored, but here goes. I know that you add all the sound effects to heighten the excitement in movies, but when it is a constant drone of explosions, bangs, and clangs, it actually hurts the movie. I actually fell asleep watching a Star Wars movies at the theater because of the constant drone. A quieter movie with a sudden explosion of sound is much more effective at creating excitement. So as it is with a movie with a quieter rumbling of bass to enhance pending doom.

Finally, this is just an observation, so don't take it personal. You seem to very biased but that is understandable since your knowledge is limited to the studio. The world outside the studio is much different. Our listening environments can come in every configuration possible, with walls, doors, openings, and windows, all in the wrong place for optimum sound. Our equipment comes in all flavors from tiny TV speakers to full blown high end surround systems. Because of this, there is no standard rule that applies for home setup, certainly not studio standards. While the “standard” can be used as a guide, compromises “have” to be made in the home environment. When TV screens actually become the speaker in addition to being the screen, people will balk at using a center channel. At best, it is a compromise relative to behind the screen speakers and has many inherent flaws. Perhaps you are able to mentally block these flaws, not everyone is so lucky. I've known people that think their Bose system is equal to any high end system too. The mind is a wonderful thing, don't you think?

If you respond to this, don't feed me that same old line again. I've made everything I've mentioned here very clear. You need to read what I wrote and understand it before responding. If it's beyond your ability to expand your way of thinking then just let it pass.

[StevenSurprenant]

... response in ......3.....2....1...

I about fell out of my chair for this one. LMAO!

[ForeverAutumn]

I started deleting offensive posts in this thread, but then I realized that I just don't have the time or energy to bother. You are all grown men acting like children. What is wrong with you?

Hyfi, you whine and cry that the mods aren't being fair, but you do nothing but bait Sir T. You know exactly what you are doing and you know exactly what the response is going to be. Stop doing it.

SirT, you know what Hyfi is up to so why do you respond? Put him on ignore. If the mods had the power, I would do it for you.

This is a valuable site for a lot of people, for many reasons. There is not as much activity here as there used to be and much of the activity that is here is nothing more than pissing wars between people who are trying to prove that they are the biggest dick in the room. Ask yourself this...if you owned this site would you continue to run it under the current conditions? I fear that one day I will come here to check in and learn something new and will find it shut down; in no small part due to threads like this one.

I say all of this as someone who values and cares about these forums, not as a moderator.

Grow up and act like men.

[Hyfi]

I started deleting offensive posts in this thread, but then I realized that I just don't have the time or energy to bother. You are all grown men acting like children. What is wrong with you?

Hyfi, you whine and cry that the mods aren't being fair, but you do nothing but bait Sir T. You know exactly what you are doing and you know exactly what the response is going to be. Stop doing it.

SirT, you know what Hyfi is up to so why do you respond? Put him on ignore. If the mods had the power, I would do it for you.

This is a valuable site for a lot of people, for many reasons. There is not as much activity here as there used to be and much of the activity that is here is nothing more than pissing wars between people who are trying to prove that they are the biggest dick in the room. Ask yourself this...if you owned this site would you continue to run it under the current conditions? I fear that one day I will come here to check in and learn something new and will find it shut down; in no small part due to threads like this one.

I say all of this as someone who values and cares about these forums, not as a moderator.

Grow up and act like men.

FA, I take responsibility for my actions and already admitted I baited him. I also could not have made it anymore obvious. Arguments, disagreements, and dislike are just fine but when one has to always respond with abusiveness, foul mouth, and personal attacks because that is the only way they think they are winning, well I'm going to expose it and point it out. He has every chance to respond to a baited post in a mature civil tongue but has not chosen to do that. Except for this recent issue, you only see ONE member continuously guilty of not being able to post in a somewhat mature and without foul language and personal attacks.

The reason I don't put anyone on ignore is because then I would not be able to see when this behavior is directed at me, all the while everyone else including JM gets a good laugh and can choose favorite posts of that nature. I don't PM the mods behind anyone's back. I don't get into a PM war with the problem individual. I do it here in the open for all to see. I will continue to bring it up if it continues to happen. If someone cannot allow their buttons to be pushed without turning into a street thug, then maybe they should not hang with the ones who can.

I did what I had to do and I was not alone in my complaints as to how the Mods allow one person to attempt to run roughshod over the rest of the members here. You and I go way back and I respect your opinion and comments but I don't just lay down in the fetal position when people attempt to bully me and others around me. I would be doing the same thing if I were still in grade school to stop an abusive bully. And I do it out in the open for all to see.

[JohnMichael]

FA, I take responsibility for my actions and already admitted I baited him. I also could not have made it anymore obvious. Arguments, disagreements, and dislike are just fine but when one has to always respond with abusiveness, foul mouth, and personal attacks because that is the only way they think they are winning, well I'm going to expose it and point it out. He has every chance to respond to a baited post in a mature civil tongue but has not chosen to do that. Except for this recent issue, you only see ONE member continuously guilty of not being able to post in a somewhat mature and without foul language and personal attacks.

The reason I don't put anyone on ignore is because then I would not be able to see when this behavior is directed at me, all the while everyone else including JM gets a good laugh and can choose favorite posts of that nature. I don't PM the mods behind anyone's back. I don't get into a PM war with the problem individual. I do it here in the open for all to see. I will continue to bring it up if it continues to happen. If someone cannot allow their buttons to be pushed without turning into a street thug, then maybe they should not hang with the ones who can.

I did what I had to do and I was not alone in my complaints as to how the Mods allow one person to attempt to run roughshod over the rest of the members here. You and I go way back and I respect your opinion and comments but I don't just lay down in the fetal position when people attempt to bully me and others around me. I would be doing the same thing if I were still in grade school to stop an abusive bully. And I do it out in the open for all to see.

Hyfi, it is over and we must move on to audio again. I have to say when you mention mods feel free to mention me by name. I was the only one available at the time and I know you had problems with how I handled things. Regardless of language used no one held the angel card that was part of the threads. Yes it spilled onto many threads.

As fas as someone's suggestion that it be moved to the Steel Cage I thought that might give license for it to truly get ugly. Yes I know many of the same rules apply but it often becomes a death match in Thunderdome.

This is the end of discussing it and now let's all shake hands, group hug or whatever we need, to be able to be civil. Everyone do what you have to do to get over all this annimosity and whomever chooses to start a thread on this matter again look forward to some time off.

[bobsticks]

AR get together. We had one in Chicago. Great time who else is coming?

When?