Car talk!

[GMichael]

What a rip off! I was just on the Mazda site running some prices. The interest rate to lease a Mazda 3 Sport is 4.4% for 36 months. The rate to lease a Mazda Speed3 is 5.9% for the same 36 months! I don't understand the different rates. The cost of borrowing for Mazda should be the same regardless of car. It doesn't make sense to me.

Oh, and they're running a promotion so that I could purchase the Mazda Speed3 for zero financing up to 60 months and only 1.9% for longer periods. At those rates I'd consider buying over leasing. 5.9% vs. 0%. I don't get it.

One car is selling out without the lower % rate, so they don't offer it.
They may be overstocked on the other so therefore the better rate.
Good old supply and demand.

[Groundbeef]

What a rip off! I was just on the Mazda site running some prices. The interest rate to lease a Mazda 3 Sport is 4.4% for 36 months. The rate to lease a Mazda Speed3 is 5.9% for the same 36 months! I don't understand the different rates. The cost of borrowing for Mazda should be the same regardless of car. It doesn't make sense to me.

Oh, and they're running a promotion so that I could purchase the Mazda Speed3 for zero financing up to 60 months and only 1.9% for longer periods. At those rates I'd consider buying over leasing. 5.9% vs. 0%. I don't get it.

Whats there not to get? Mazda is in the market to SELL cars, not lease them.

They discount sale prices, as then it is a SALE. When its paid for, it YOUR problem, not theirs. Don't have to worry about returns, cleaning, storing, re-selling, etc.

Leasing is just a way to get money out of your pocket for a car you probably can't afford anyway (not you personally). Plenty of folks "lease" because its "cheaper". In the short term. Its like renting an apartment though. After a year or so, its cheaper to have bought!

[Feanor]

Whats there not to get? Mazda is in the market to SELL cars, not lease them.

They discount sale prices, as then it is a SALE. When its paid for, it YOUR problem, not theirs. Don't have to worry about returns, cleaning, storing, re-selling, etc.

Leasing is just a way to get money out of your pocket for a car you probably can't afford anyway (not you personally). Plenty of folks "lease" because its "cheaper". In the short term. Its like renting an apartment though. After a year or so, its cheaper to have bought!

As I observed earlier in the thread, a low nominal lease rate doesn't mean too much in itself; the real interest can only be computed based on the corresponding cash price of the same vehicle. Of course, the cash price is after discounts and haggling, not usually the price on which the lease is computed using the lease rate.

I don't know about FA's instance, but it seems to me pretty common to offer a discount or a low lease rate. In general, as between to vehicles from the same maker and cash discount taken into account, the real lease rates are likely to be nearly identical.

[topspeed]

Leasing is just a way to get money out of your pocket for a car you probably can't afford anyway (not you personally). Plenty of folks "lease" because its "cheaper".

Honestly, I don't see a problem with utilizing a method to get more car than you could afford through conventional financing. If somebody offered you a fixed 2% mortgage to buy a $600,000 house as opposed to a 6% on a $375,000 house, wouldn't you take it? It's the same payment after all.

Plus, you have to keep in mind that our tax laws currently allow substantial advantages to leasing if you fall into the right category.

In the short term. Its like renting an apartment though. After a year or so, its cheaper to have bought!

Think so, huh? If you bought real estate in the last year, there's an excellent chance you are upside down now. If you bought a luxury car in the last year, there's an excellent chance the depreciation is far worse than either you or the bank forcast. In the softening luxury car market, closed end leases are your friend. Come March, I just turn the thing in and move on to my next car, regardless of market value. My bank is telling me to "make them an offer" because they know the residual value (calculated 3 years ago when money factors and the market were completely different) is roughly 20% higher than current market value. Truth be told, I'd consider it if it weren't for the reality of maintaining a M3 out of warranty, a thought invariably forces me into the fetal position.

0% financing is the great equalizer, however. If there is an opportunity to get 0% on a fairly desireable car, that it definitley worth considering.

Of course, the cash price is after discounts and haggling, not usually the price on which the lease is computed using the lease rate.

There shouldn't be a difference. Never tell a dealer you are planning to lease until after you have negotiated the price, otherwise they will be focused on payments and not cap cost. Everything is negotiable, from cap cost to money factor to bank fees. Everything. It all depends on how hot the car is and how bad you want it.

[Woochifer]

Kinda joining in a bit late, but as far as the Mazdas go, my wife and I liked them enough to buy one. In advance of our baby's arrival, we bought a Mazda5 (we never considered leasing because both of us tend to keep our cars for a long time and we clock a lot of long distance driving).

The 5 is basically a Mazda3 with a taller minivan-style body. Among the cars we looked at, this was the perfect size configuration, and it offers quite a bit for a relatively low price. It's definitely a lot more sluggish than the 3, but it's more agile than a typical minivan or SUV and probably has the easiest step-in for a car I've ever tried (important consideration for when grandparents visit). We got one fully loaded with a leather interior, auto climate control, sunroof, Xenon headlights, upgraded audio, etc. for $22k out the door.




Overseas, these types of cars are known as space wagons, tall wagons, or MPVs. Very efficiently packaged with 3 rows of seats and an overall length generally shorter than a midsized sedan, without the excessive bulk, height, and weight of SUVs. As popular as this class of car has become overseas, they've never caught on in the U.S. The Kia Rondo is the only other car of this type being sold in North America. Perhaps with high gas prices and a sluggish economy, there's more of a market opening for these kinds of cars in the near future. Honda is purportedly planning to test the waters by bringing its hot selling MPV, the Stream, to North America in 2009. This also would have been ideal for what we were looking for, had it been available.



Car shopping did get frustrating at times, because we were looking for something that could accommodate a baby along with a dog tethered in the cargo area, yet we did not want a SUV for a variety of reasons. We would have considered going with a wagon if there had been more workable options in our price range. The so-called minivans were also a disappointment because the newer ones have gotten beyond huge, and the prices have also gone through the roof. The Mazda5 is actually about the same size as the original Dodge Caravan and the original Honda Odyssey, yet it's nearly 2 feet shorter and over 1,000 lbs. lighter than the current versions of those minivan models.

Personally, I liked how the Mazda3 drove, but my wife deemed the cargo area too small. The Chevy HHR was close to the size we needed, but my years of experience with GM rental cars soured me on Chevys. The VW Passat wagon also met our needs, but we thought that the Mazda5 was an all-around better value, so we went with that.

Among the Mazdas I've driven over the years, I always found that Mazdas are designed to reward drivers who like driving. They might not be the fastest cars off the line, but in a turn they are very rewarding. At the same time though, they do demand more attention from the driver because they are responsive and can get a bit twitchy at the extremes.

In contrast, Toyotas are as bland as they come, but that's by design. They're forgiving to a fault in a turn, smooth, efficient, reliable, practical, etc. A friend of mine who worked as an auto engineer told me that Toyota has the resources to be a world beater in almost all performance categories if they wanted to. But, instead they overengineer their cars for reliability, while finding the middle points for performance, and paying an inordinate amount of attention to how the ergonomic pieces fit together. Obviously, it has worked fine for them, even if auto enthusiasts find their cars staid and boring.

Hondas seem to be somewhere in the middle -- a bit more edginess dialed into the driving experience, but still forgiving enough for average drivers who'd rather pay attention to their various distractions than the road.

I've yet to drive a Ford Fusion (driven enough rental Tauruses to know I would never want to own one), but it seems like a step in the right direction that it shares a platform with the Mazda6, while the new Focus shares its platform with the 3. My last rental was a Mustang (albeit w/ the base V-6), and while it had its fun moments, it felt like a heavy car and not especially agile or responsive. I will say though that Ford dialed one of the sweetest sounding exhaust notes into that car! Lots of bark, but without the V-8, not a whole lot of bite.

[Feanor]

...
Never tell a dealer you are planning to lease until after you have negotiated the price, otherwise they will be focused on payments and not cap cost. Everything is negotiable, from cap cost to money factor to bank fees. Everything. It all depends on how hot the car is and how bad you want it.

Good advice, that But you will most often hear that you get either the discount or the low lease rate, not both.

[ForeverAutumn]

Wooch, the Ford Fusion is on my list of cars to test drive. My Dad used to have a Taurus which I hated driving. And I once took a Contour out for test drive...took it around the block and returned it. Yuck. But the Fusion has been getting pretty good write-ups. I'll let you know how it feels.

So, currently on my list of cars to test drive are:
Ford Fusion
Mazda Speed3
Mazda 6
Mazda Tribute
Hyundai Santa Fe
Subaru Forester
Subaru Outback

[O'Shag]

There is only one...

[ForeverAutumn]

There is only one...

It's lovely. But I doubt that it will fit our golf bags and carts.

[O'Shag]

They'll fit. If it can fit machine guns, bazookas, and tied-up dead terrorists, it can certainly fit golf clubs.

If you dirve this down to the gawlf course, you'll be the bees knees, and you'll have something in common with the Queen. Did you know, when Liz gets tired of Phil's senile BS, she hops into the Aston, and goes for a spin to calm her nerves.

[topspeed]

Hey Wooch,

Mazda5's are fun cars! Nice buy there. Not the quickest, but they handle better than any tall wagon has a right to.

FYI: The new Focus is built on the same platform as before, albeit stiffened and with more attention paid to NVH. The Euro Focus is built on the Mazda3/Volvo C30 platform and has rightfully garnered a ton of praise across the pond. Alas, the morons (aka beancounters) in Dearborn determined a US version of that platform would put the Focus well into the $20's and far beyond its core market. From what I've read, the car still handles very well, which isn't a complete surprise as the original was always considered one of the best handling in its class. The problem is the new body, which is nerdy at best. Those lucky Euros get far better Fords than we do.

[kexodusc]

The problem is the new body, which is nerdy at best. Those lucky Euros get far better Fords than we do.

Ain't that the truth.
When I was in Australia I thought the same thing - Ford had some cool vehicles down under - the Falcon sedan in particular was everywhere, but also some weird "son of El Camino" type cars that were pretty interetesting.
http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/Conte...1024&c=DFYPage
Not for everyone, but nice to see a Ford other than a Mustang that didn't bore you to death.
Holden is the GM brand down there - don't know about quality but style wise they were the best GM's I'd seen in years!

Aside from the odd Ferrari or Maserati, Toyotas and Hondas ruled the streets there too though.

[Woochifer]

Hey Wooch,

Mazda5's are fun cars! Nice buy there. Not the quickest, but they handle better than any tall wagon has a right to.

Thanks Speedy, I will say that the 5 is great for city driving. It takes a while to get to 65, but its maneuverability make it ideal for dodging urban double parkers, potholes, and pedestrians. Lot of fun driving that thing around the San Francisco hills. It's also one of the easiest cars to parallel park that I've ever driven.

As much as we like the 5, I kinda wish that there were more tall wagon choices available in North America. That Honda Stream purportedly sits on the same platform as the Civic and CR-V, yet has more interior and cargo space than an Accord. The CR-V met a lot of our needs, but I just don't like all that wasted vertical space, the flimsy bumpers, and high profile truck tires. Plus, it cost around $4k more than the 5 ... might as well buy a Passat wagon for that price.

FYI: The new Focus is built on the same platform as before, albeit stiffened and with more attention paid to NVH. The Euro Focus is built on the Mazda3/Volvo C30 platform and has rightfully garnered a ton of praise across the pond. Alas, the morons (aka beancounters) in Dearborn determined a US version of that platform would put the Focus well into the $20's and far beyond its core market. From what I've read, the car still handles very well, which isn't a complete surprise as the original was always considered one of the best handling in its class. The problem is the new body, which is nerdy at best. Those lucky Euros get far better Fords than we do.

That's too bad. I kept reading that the Euro Focus/3/C30 platform was on its way to the redesigned U.S. Focus, and looked forward to having that option available, especially if a SVT version came out to give the Mazdaspeed 3 a sibling rivalry.

Among the small cars I've rented, the previous Focus' agility always impressed me. It's not nearly as refined as the 3, but I could see why it had such a following with aftermarket tuners. The 3 gives the impression that it's a more expensive car than it actually is. If the 3 starts around $15k (even with the weak dollar), I'm astounded that Ford felt they would have to charge that much more if they built the new Focus around the same platform.

I did not like when Ford restyled the Focus a couple of years ago (so that they could make it look more like the already ugly Five Hundred?!), and it looks even dorkier now. I also don't like that Ford has eliminated the five-door and wagon versions.

Considering how Ford has now slid into third place, what would they lose by emulating their European unit, which has a long history of delivering successful, well designed, and very profitable cars? Or are they leaving their Eurostyle offerings to Mazda and Volvo, while trying to hold onto their shrinking traditional markets? The Fusion looks like a step in the right direction, and I'm sure I'll wind up driving one as a rental soon enough.

The U.S. auto market is quite odd (or at least the automakers' perception of the market is odd). I never understood the fixation on three-box body styles when hatchbacks are so much more practical and IMO easy on the eyes. The rest of the world seems fine with 5-door hatchbacks to go along with the sedan and coupe bodies. Also, it seems that the U.S. versions of many cars are longer and wider on the outside, while not necessarily providing that much more on the inside (e.g., the previous gen Honda Accord -- the trimmer and more attractive Acura TSX was actually sold as the Honda Accord overseas). And don't even get me started on SUVs ... talk about the antidote to car enthusiasm!

[blackraven]

The problem with hatchbacks used to be that the rear hatch would rust out before the rest of the car. This has scared many people away. The old 1970's honda accord was a hatchback and sold well but the american hatchbacks like the dodge omni and chevy chevete were POS! Oh and remeber the POS chevy citation hatchback, what the hell were they thinking. I think hatchbacks are selling fairly well now. The new Subi STI is a hatch and should sell well.

Ford seems to be on the right track with the Fusion, but damn, its styling is boring. I just dont get car manufacturers, especially GM and Ford. I think they think the public will shy away from any hip new styling. At least chrysler has the balls for radical styling even if their cars for the most part IMO are made poorly (as are GM's).

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

I'm torn between the Mercedes-Benz c300 4matic and Infiniti G35x AWD sedans myself.

I know the Infiniti is the superior vehicle in almost every measurable way, but the Benz is a Benz! Aargh!

PS: a BMW 335xi with similar options was nearly $9000 more than the G35x, so I'm not really considering that right now.

[ForeverAutumn]

I'm torn between the Mercedes-Benz c300 4matic and Infiniti G35x AWD sedans myself.

I know the Infiniti is the superior vehicle in almost every measurable way, but the Benz is a Benz! Aargh!

PS: a BMW 335xi with similar options was nearly $9000 more than the G35x, so I'm not really considering that right now.

Those are all out of my price range.

I took a Ford Fusion for a test drive on Saturday...actually I took two Ford Fusions out on Saturday, the 2.3L I4 and 3.0L V6. It totally lived up to all the great reviews that I've read. Even with only the 2.3L engine, it had spunk.

The interior of the SEL version is pretty upscale with the exception of the seats which I found to be a little too soft and wrapped in a fabric that will look worn pretty quickly. But a leather seat upgrade will take care of both of those issues. The car comes nicely loaded with lots of standard options (including a plug for my iPod and heated side mirrors which are a great feature for winter driving). The only thing that I would have to add is a Moonroof which is conveniently packaged with a stereo and speaker upgrade, including 6 months of free satelite radio, and the Sync system if I decide that I want it.

There was quite a big difference between the 2.3L and 3.0L engines. The 3.0L was much, much faster on take off (241hp vs. only 160) but was also a lot louder. Although the 3.0L was fun, the 2.3L would be find for the city driving that I mostly do. This isn't an overly heavy car so 160hp felt fine. And it'll reduce my gas consumption which is one my goals in getting away from SUVs. I don't see gas prices going anywhere but up.

I still need to take it out for a highway run, but right now it's the leader from both a pricing and feature standpoint. I just have to get used to the idea of being closer to the ground again.

[SlumpBuster]

Wooch, the Ford Fusion is on my list of cars to test drive. My Dad used to have a Taurus which I hated driving. And I once took a Contour out for test drive...took it around the block and returned it. Yuck. But the Fusion has been getting pretty good write-ups. I'll let you know how it feels.

So, currently on my list of cars to test drive are:
Ford Fusion
Mazda Speed3
Mazda 6
Mazda Tribute
Hyundai Santa Fe
Subaru Forester
Subaru Outback

I might me a little late to the party, but might I suggest the Saturn Astra ($16-$20k US) or Saturn Aura ($20k - $28k US). In full disclosure, I come from a GM family and the majority of my automotive clients are GM related, but still these are really nice cars. They are not like the crappy Saturns from 10 years ago. I actually have an Aura that I got over a Cadillac CTS. I was all ready to buy my first Caddy when I drove the Aura. I was ruined as I couldn't justify the cost increase of the CTS. The Aura had everything I wanted (except rear wheel drive) and more. All my friends goofed on me for getting a Saturn over a Caddy... except for my friends and family who are actually at GM. They all said "Good move."

Oh, and I remember the Hyundai Santa Fe getting really, really bad crash test results. But that was probably 4 years ago, so they may have improved.

[topspeed]

Glad to hear you liked the Fusion, FA. If you do get it, go for the Sync. It's pretty trick from what my friend tells me. He really enjoys it!

The Aura is an excellent, if more pricey, option. The Moroccan interior is very Euro (a good thing IMO). A loaded Aura will nearly touch $30k USD.

[ForeverAutumn]

The Aura is about the same price as the Fusion. Both retail for about $30K with the features that I want. However Ford is offering a $3650 rebate on Fusions until the end of March which will make a huge difference. If I go by MSRP a 36 month lease on a Fusion is the same price as a 48 month lease on an Aura.

Having said that, the Aura does look nice and I'll go take a look at it. Thanks.

[audio amateur]

I'm torn between the Mercedes-Benz c300 4matic and Infiniti G35x AWD sedans myself.

I know the Infiniti is the superior vehicle in almost every measurable way, but the Benz is a Benz! Aargh!

PS: a BMW 335xi with similar options was nearly $9000 more than the G35x, so I'm not really considering that right now.

Get a 330xi with the nice body kit gotta love it. It's got around 260 horses

[topspeed]

I know the Infiniti is the superior vehicle in almost every measurable way, but the Benz is a Benz! Aargh!

A Benz is no longer a Benz. Don't be fooled.

Back in the day (pre 1990), Mercedes was well known for over-engineering their cars. They were expensive then, as they are now, but at least you got what you paid for. In the early '90's (when Lexus was formed), Mercedes made two decisions that have led directly to their downfall:

1) Build to a price (instead of standard)
2) Stuff as much hi-tech gizmos in their vehicles as possible

The end result are cars that are raced to market with "bleeding-edge", unproven technology like COMAND and e-brakes (eloquently coined "crapulent luxury" by Jaime Kitman of Automobile Mag) that are no longer reliable, aren't built with top materials, weigh too much, and need a personal IT riding shotgun to keep the damn thing running. Germans are fantastic mechanical engineers. Computer engineers? Not so much...

Mercedes hasn't been ranked in JD Power's IQS Top 10 at any time this millenium. Indeed, only two years ago they were ranked in the 20's, well behind Lincoln, Mercury, Chevy, and all of the other American brands wrongfully perceived to be inferior.

The three pointed star simply isn't what it used to be, and yet they still want you to pay for it. Again, don't be fooled.

The G35x will run circles around both the C300 and the 230hp 330xi for thousands less. Don't believe me? I've owned multiple BMW's, yet I'm about to replace my E46 M3 'vert with a G37s. The performance is nearly equal to a twin turbo 335i, but at nearly $10K less, the price difference is simply too hard to ignore.

The auto industry moves fast. Reputations must be earned with every new car, not what you did 30 years ago.

[audio amateur]

The new 330i (E90) is 260hp the 335 has around 300hp and loads of torque
Speed, please don't sell your E46

[topspeed]

I stand corrected.

I think the discrepancy lies in the different models available across the pond vs. here in North America. The E90 330i, which indeed produced 260hp, was replaced with the 300hp twin turbo 335i two model years ago. The 328i, which uses the same 3.0L N52 as the 330i, has been detuned to 230hp as the entry level engine. Call Munich if you want to know why they just didn't call the thing a 330i.

As for the M3, as much as I enjoy it, taking care of a M car out of warranty is not for the faint of heart (or depth of wallet) and she hasn't exactly been a "low maintenance" kind of gal. I just replaced the tranny with only 30k on the clock, an $8,000 repair mercifully covered by a warranty with only 10k left on it. It's time to move on.

[audio amateur]

I stand corrected.

I think the discrepancy lies in the different models available across the pond vs. here in North America. The E90 330i, which indeed produced 260hp, was replaced with the 300hp twin turbo 335i two model years ago. The 328i, which uses the same 3.0L N52 as the 330i, has been detuned to 230hp as the entry level engine. Call Munich if you want to know why they just didn't call the thing a 330i.

As for the M3, as much as I enjoy it, taking care of a M car out of warranty is not for the faint of heart (or depth of wallet) and she hasn't exactly been a "low maintenance" kind of gal. I just replaced the tranny with only 30k on the clock, an $8,000 repair mercifully covered by a warranty with only 10k left on it. It's time to move on.

You seem well informed on the subject. What I don't gather though is why they call the twin turbo a 335 when it remains a 3.0L.
The M3 is simply my dream car, that's why i'm saying this, obviously whatever choice you make will be well informed and a fine buy, I have no doubt. I have to say it does suck to hear that it has had these problems.

Here's a vid for you, which, if anything, may change your mind (I know you won't like the music). Needless to say I've watched it several times:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pockYpND0Y

Both M3's, especially starting 3:49 are deadly... The G35 has a nice body kit to it. Enjoy!
ps: what was the 8 grand repair on?

[topspeed]

You were right about the music! I'm a rocker.

While I appreciate the video, I have to tell you I despise ricers and hate street racing with a vengence. If some morons want to whip it out to see whose is bigger, do it on a track where they don't endanger innocents on the roadways. Blasting in and out of traffic on a public road is the height of stupidity. Did you notice how the G35 braked suddenly and the M3 almost ran up its backside on the freeway? There's a pileup waiting to happen .

If you really want to see what an M3 can do, here's a video with a soundtrack provided by my favorite band: Straight Cut Gears. Turn up your speakers.

http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...urburgring.flv

Edit: After re-reading my post, it may come off as directed towards you, which it most certainly is not. No offense was intended. BTW, the 8 grand was to replace the entire transmission; gearset, casing, etc. I lost third gear downshifting from 6th before a freeway onramp right before Christmas. Nothing quite like coasting through a huge onramp unable to grab a gear...any gear...all the while 18 wheelers are barreling down on you! FunFunFun!~