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  1. #51
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    What a charmer you are, Mark. Talk about my confrontational attitude: what a hypocrite!

  2. #52
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks View Post
    Actually, I'm done being flippant about what is clearly a hot topic and one that certainly has impactful implications...and I recognize that both sides may have some merit.

    If I may pose a question to my Canadian bretheren, are there any underlying budgetary constraints that would have predicated the government's behavior? Y'all have such a seemingly stable economy up there I confess to rarely following things economic Canuckian except for lumber...
    'Sticks, see FA's reference to the Ontario teachers' situation. Ontario has a severe budget deficit. To address this partially the Liberal Party government has asked the teachers to accept a two year salary freeze and forgo accumulation of sick days -- not too onerous I'd say.

    Canada's is a primarily a resource and export based economy, so our stability depends largely on the world commodity markets -- oil, potash, nickel, copper, grains, and yes, lumber. Since the oil price is high, the Canadian dollar is high against the US dollar, but this could change quickly. Canada's manufacturing sector is significant none the less with export of automobiles & auto parts (to the US) and aircraft and aircraft parts & electronics.
    Last edited by Feanor; 03-05-2012 at 09:25 AM.

  3. #53
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    You asked for it

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    What a charmer you are, Mark. Talk about my confrontational attitude: what a hypocrite!
    You got it.

    Life is comprised of choices and we must all live with the consequences of those we make It's too bad you can't accept yours like a man.

    Now, had you just kept yer trap shut when you had nothing of value to say, this would have not been necessary.

  4. #54
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw View Post
    And yet, we have only your word that you were a contributinfg member of the team.
    So why not take him at his word since you can't prove otherwise?

  5. #55
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    'Sticks, see FA's reference to the Ontario teachers' situation. Ontario has a severe budget deficit. To address this partially the Liberal Party government has asked the teachers to accept a two year salary freeze and forgo accumulation of sick days -- not too onerous I'd say.
    Not too onerous at all...mayhap a lesson learned from our own auto industry's inability to reign in it's unions when times got tough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    Canada's is a primarily a resource and export based economy, so our stability depends largely on the world commodity markets -- oil, potash, nickel, copper, grains, and yes, lumber. Since the oil price is high, the Canadian dollar is high against the US dollar, but this could change quickly. Canada's manufacturing sector is significant none the less with export of automobiles & auto parts (to the US) and aircraft and aircraft parts & electronics.
    I'd always assumed this. Thanks for the confirmation. I guess I was asking for specifics relative to the fact that, like most Americans, I only pay attention to news anymore that has to do with me, money, or my money...the rest is just too depressing.
    So, I broke into the palace
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    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post
    So why not take him at his word since you can't prove otherwise?
    Normally I wouldn't give a hoot except he started this crap by putting his words in my mouth. If that's any indication of the way he conducted business, I have my doubts about his veracity.

    happy now sweetie?

  7. #57
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn View Post
    So why not take him at his word since you can't prove otherwise?
    It seems MarkW's favourite mode is personal attack. It's an old strategy: if you can't refute the other person's idea, then you attack them personally. It's call the "Ad Hominem" fallacy.

    MarkW says I "put words in his mouth"; he posted ...
    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    Quote Originally Posted by George Meaney
    The founders of the labor movement viewed unions as a vehicle to get workers more of the profits they help create. Government workers, however, donít generate profits. They merely negotiate for more tax money.
    To this I responded ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    Is PROFIT the measure of everything? It's absurd to imply that public education is valueless because it doesn't earn profit.
    ...
    Maybe I drew a different implication from the Meaney quote than he did, but that's not the same as "putting words in his mouth".
    Last edited by Feanor; 03-05-2012 at 01:25 PM.

  8. #58
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    So, what's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    It seems MarkW's favourite mode is personal attack. It's an old strategy: if you can't refute the other person's idea, then you attack them personally. It's call the "Ad Hominem" fallacy.

    MarkW says I "put words in his mouth"; he posted ...


    To this I responded ...

    Maybe I drew a different implication from the Meaney quote than he did, but that's not the same as "putting words in his mouth".
    You didn't like what he said and you attacked me. What'syour point?

    Yeah, I agree with what he said but that doesn't mean I think education is without value, which was your opening atttack.

    So, go fluck yourself.

  9. #59
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Feanor disagreed with you. It was hardly an attack. In fact, if you go back to that post he agreed with part of your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by markw View Post
    So, go fluck yourself.
    This is an attack. Please don't make me put this thread in the Steel Cage. Moving threads there seems to be a thread killer and there is some good discussion going on here. Most people are being very reasonable. Please don't ruin it.

    Okay sweetie?
    Last edited by ForeverAutumn; 03-05-2012 at 02:58 PM.

  10. #60
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobsticks
    I only pay attention to news anymore that has to do with me, money, or my money...the rest is just too depressing.
    LOL! For me it's paying attention to my money these days that I find depressing.

  11. #61
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw View Post
    You didn't like what he said and you attacked me. What'syour point?

    Yeah, I agree with what he said but that doesn't mean I think education is without value, which was your opening atttack.

    So, go fluck yourself.
    OK. What was the point of the quote from Meaney?

    To be honest, I thought you were saying something similar to what Feanor interpreted:

    Essentially that unions are about getting share of profit for workers, hence government workers shouldn't be unionized as they don't earn profit. Which seems rather unfair to goverment workers.

  12. #62
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    Since you asked nicely,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani View Post
    OK. What was the point of the quote from Meaney?

    To be honest, I thought you were saying something similar to what Feanor interpreted:

    Essentially that unions are about getting share of profit for workers, hence government workers shouldn't be unionized as they don't earn profit. Which seems rather unfair to goverment workers.
    I thin Meany hit the nail on the head.

    In the "real" world where remuneration is (or should be) looked upon as the workers fair share of the profits. Back in "the day" unions served the explicit purpose of making sure their people got a fair shake. As time went on, they upped the ante to the point that, even in times of distress, they demanded more of the companies than they could afford. They, in effect, became the whip-holders.

    Look at the UAW pensions, negotiated in the halyceon days when the actually made good cars and turned a profit. Unfortunately, they negotiated too far into the future and left no wiggle room to cope with changing economic times. Pensions negotiated when they were funded by generous profits dried up and, when the companys actually ran at a loss, the negotiated pension payments, from glory days decades earlier,.kicked them to the ground to the point of bankruptcy. The fact that the gubment had to bail them out and take over part ownership does not thrill me, and many others, since we're on the hook for that union greed of the past.

    As for public employees, they feel they are isolated from the economic strife that plagues the taxpayer. Instead of beint at the nercy of the market, they feel that their problem can be solved simply by raising taxes. They (we) can only afford to pay so many taxes and, at some point, the public worker unions have to fact the fact that the money simply ain't there. I don't know where you are, but here in Joisey the teachers union, not necessarially the teachers themselves, have put us in a dire situation and our current governer is in a major struggle to reighn in their theatrics but, when one is feeding at the trough, they tend to want to keep the goodies flowing

    Basically, money doesn't grow on trees. The taxpayers had to bail out the auto companies from their overwhelming extorted promises to the unions. .Who do you expec to bail out the taxpayers from extorted promises from the public workers unions?

    If you're curious, google "Abbot Districts" in New Jersey.

    Remember, there's a lot of jobs opening up in right-to-work states and, around here at least, a lot of teachers right out of school just looking for a job.
    Last edited by markw; 03-05-2012 at 04:18 PM.

  13. #63
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    You say toMAYto, I say toMAHto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    Is PROFIT the measure of everything? It's absurd to imply that public education is valueless because it doesn't earn profit.
    Imply, my hairy tuchus.

    To me, this qualified as an attack and putting words in my mouth. Perhaps from certain others here I might see otherwise, but from him, I see it as an attack.

    But, then again, I don't really expect you to see it that way.

  14. #64
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw View Post
    I thin Meany hit the nail on the head.

    In the "real" world where remuneration is (or should be) looked upon as the workers fair share of the profits. Back in "the day" unions served the explicit purpose of making sure their people got a fair shake. As time went on, they upped the ante to the point that, even in times of distress, they demanded more of the companies than they could afford. They, in effect, became the whip-holders.

    Look at the UAW pensions, negotiated in the halyceon days when the actually made good cars and turned a profit. Unfortunately, they negotiated too far into the future and left no wiggle room to cope with changing economic times. Pensions negotiated when they were funded by generous profits dried up and, when the companys actually ran at a loss, the negotiated pension payments, from glory days decades earlier,.kicked them to the ground to the point of bankruptcy. The fact that the gubment had to bail them out and take over part ownership does not thrill me, and many others, since we're on the hook for that union greed of the past.

    As for public employees, they feel they are isolated from the economic strife that plagues the taxpayer. Instead of beint at the nercy of the market, they feel that their problem can be solved simply by raising taxes. They (we) can only afford to pay so many taxes and, at some point, the public worker unions have to fact the fact that the money simply ain't there. I don't know where you are, but here in Joisey the teachers union, not necessarially the teachers themselves, have put us in a dire situation and our current governer is in a major struggle to reighn in their theatrics but, when one is feeding at the trough, they tend to want to keep the goodies flowing

    Basically, money doesn't grow on trees. The taxpayers had to bail out the auto companies from their overwhelming extorted promises to the unions. .Who do you expec to bail out the taxpayers from extorted promises from the public workers unions?

    If you're curious, google "Abbot Districts" in New Jersey.

    Remember, there's a lot of jobs opening up in right-to-work states and, around here at least, a lot of teachers right out of school just looking for a job.
    Fair enough. I have no problem with the notion that everyone has to tighten their belts during hard economic times. As long as during times of prosperity persons are not still claiming that taxes can't be raised to pay government workers. If we expect them to suffer with us in the bad times, then they should get a share of the prosperity in the good times.

  15. #65
    RGA
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    I still say the sick day issue is an odd one.

    Unlike virtually all other government jobs if a teacher is sick - they pay the sick day and the replacement teacher - if you don't give them the 200 sick days at retirement - they will simply call in sick 200 days before retirement - at 64 most people can convince a doctor they have some sort of ailment - I guess i don't see how this saves money - granted a sub is $250 a day is cheaper than the sick day of $500 - so I suppose it would save a bit.

    Forever Autumn - I'd take a $10,000 a year pay-cut (at all levels on the salary scale) and a Zero for the next 5 years (or however long it takes for the economy to rebound - with only a COL increase when it does) if you can get class sizes to 15 and separated classrooms from behavior students and bring back Music, Drama, and Business courses to the schools. I'd take a $15,000 paycut if the government would pay off the student loans. That added 5,000 over a 20 year career would be double my student loan so taxpayers would see a net gain of $50grand. But I would have more money in my pocket as a beginning teacher which would take a lot of stress off of being hugely in debt and doing a job that is twice as stressful for newbies as it is for veterans. That might actually keep people in the profession longer to boot. With 15 in class they would actually learn something - take out the thugs and we could discuss 20.

  16. #66
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    Forever Autumn - I'd take a $10,000 a year pay-cut (at all levels on the salary scale) and a Zero for the next 5 years (or however long it takes for the economy to rebound - with only a COL increase when it does) if you can get class sizes to 15 and separated classrooms from behavior students and bring back Music, Drama, and Business courses to the schools. I'd take a $15,000 paycut if the government would pay off the student loans. That added 5,000 over a 20 year career would be double my student loan so taxpayers would see a net gain of $50grand. But I would have more money in my pocket as a beginning teacher which would take a lot of stress off of being hugely in debt and doing a job that is twice as stressful for newbies as it is for veterans. That might actually keep people in the profession longer to boot. With 15 in class they would actually learn something - take out the thugs and we could discuss 20.
    That's very commendable RGA. And I don't doubt that there are many teachers who feel the same way. That's why I've said before, it's the union that I have a beef with, not the individual teachers. I believe that most teachers have the best interest of the kids at heart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Fair enough. I have no problem with the notion that everyone has to tighten their belts during hard economic times. As long as during times of prosperity persons are not still claiming that taxes can't be raised to pay government workers. If we expect them to suffer with us in the bad times, then they should get a share of the prosperity in the good times.
    I'd be cool with that. People deserve COL wage increases at the very least. But not at my expense when the Province is running at such a high deficit that my taxes are probably going up because of the spending that has already occured.

  17. #67
    RGA
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    As an aside

    I think the other problem is with the governments people elect.

    In every case since I've been alive right wing parties have accumulated the most debt by a landslide and put us in these deficits in the first place. Then there is no money for social services (but plenty of money to pay CEO's a billion a year).

    And yet people seem to keep voting for right wing governments.

    They never get that we got out out of the depression through spending - even the U.S. a country dead set against socialism - uses socialism tactics and lefty spend spend spend that got them out of the Great D.

    The way to get out of it is put people into good paying jobs so they can in turn buy the things companies are selling. But if everyone is broke and the job market is hanging by a thread - no one spends - then companies fail more people are out of work and the cycle continues.

    So playing Devil's advocate to my own post - teacher's have half the buying power they had in the mid 80s which means they can only spend half as much which means the companies out there are getting half the sales (or lower ticket item sales - which means less profit no matter how you look at it).

    Well anyway - the BC teachers are going to lose (that's my wager) unless they manage some serious out of the box thinking - the "en masse" resignation type deal to get around strike fines. While there are many subs out there they are part of the union so they would not be able to replace regulars with subs. They could hire non teachers - but they all have to be cleared with criminal record checks - and at the high schools would need a BA in the field - which might be easy for English and History (and elementary school) but not Physics/Chemistry(none of them would take the pay cut).

    Further if everyone quits the union disbands - gone is the attractive teacher pension, seniority rights. So the new people replacing the teachers would have none of the benefits leftover.

    The mischievous side of me has a sardonic kick thinking about my scenario playing out just to see what the government would or could do about it.

    I mean if they did it - who would the government get to teach?

    Seriously the "educated" in society who didn't choose teaching in the first place certainly won't choose it if the benefits are worse - and Bill 22 makes them worse.

    The other people who think Teaching is a cake-walk - high pay, lots of vacation, glorified baby-sitting - well I wonder why they are not teaching????

    I mean they make it out to be the best easiest job in the world so why on earth would they not be teachers? There's a question.

    Man - if accounting didn't bore me to tears I would probably should have just stuck it out but my lord I wanted to blow my brains out after the trying to find out why my debit column was off by .03 on half a million dollars and having to go back through the whole month to find one error - BANG! Just thinking of it
    Last edited by RGA; 03-06-2012 at 12:23 AM.

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  19. #69
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    I have been reading along with this thread and keeping my two cents to myself, but I read something in RGA's last link that I must comment on. The statement was, "Today at Claremont there is 3/4 of a librarian."

    WTF?! Where is the other 25 percent of this librarian?

    Sorry. Couldn't resist. You can go back to your conversation now. I'll shut up.
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  20. #70
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Since I strongly believe in public education and believe that educational advantage is essential to sustain and advance North American society and economy, I am very sympathetic to the author of the article and BC teachers.

    Yet from another perspective I wonder about the motivation of teachers versus other workers in other business and government occupations.

    First, as a (still relatively) young & single person, it's easy for you to buy the purity of the "It is all for the students" line of argument. Those who have family responsibilities and are anticipating retirement might assign a different weight to the union action.

    On the a philosophical level there is the issue of who ought to determine educational policy and priorities. Should it be the teachers, the administrators & policy advisors, the politicians and ultimately the voters. Ultimately it will be the elected politicians, and if they don't like it, teachers can suck it up or leave the profession. You may liken the politicians to the pigs in Animal Farm but I'm afraid that's democracy in action.

    More broadly what about the power of rank & file employees to determine the policy of any organization? In non-governmental organizations it is the board of directors who make the decisions, not the employees, and with the good reason that it is they who establish the goals of the organization, not the employees. And there is inherent conflict between the personal goals of employees and the goal of the organization -- this gets us back to the "purity" of the motivation of the BC teachers.

    To be sure, employees might know perfectly well that the decisions of management are a mistake -- even it terms of the goals of directors, (e.g. maximizing profit). In some European countries in larger organizations, employees elect a certain portion of directors. I think this is a great idea, but don't see it happening in the public sector, much less in the private sector in North America.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael View Post
    I have been reading along with this thread and keeping my two cents to myself, but I read something in RGA's last link that I must comment on. The statement was, "Today at Claremont there is 3/4 of a librarian."

    WTF?! Where is the other 25 percent of this librarian?

    Sorry. Couldn't resist. You can go back to your conversation now. I'll shut up.
    Isn't a Union Requirement to only give 75% and not 100%?

  22. #72
    RGA
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    The 3/4 librarian is simple - (and quite a lot bigger percentage than the schools I taught at).

    What they do is they simply don't operate the library as often.The school districts have the librarians driving to different schools on different days - they're starting to do that with counselors as well. So a school will open their library 2 days a week and the classroom teacher has to run it the rest of the time. Yup more work for the classroom teacher - they have to be librarians too.

    I think it is more of an example of numbers - one for every 500 and now one for every 1500. Interestingly, Librarians are actually more important now than they ever have been because kids rely on wiki and other horrible reference links for their "facts" but that's a whole paper.


    Feanor

    I thought you hated the word philosophical - so don't bring up that level

    The main difference in private sector or public policy is that the people in charge KNOW the intricacies of their charge. The owners of a company know what is best for their companies and they hire people with knowledge to get the task done.

    The owner of the company doesn't tell the accountant how to be an accountant - the accountant knows accounting FAR better than the owner (in most instances) - the owner leads the ship and hires people to execute the given task. Accountants are only one part of a business - you need to rely on sales, purchasing, marketing etc. Combined each gets what the owner or board of directors wants.

    Education doesn't really work like that in the same way. Teachers are somewhat independent - they are in charge of the classroom and they're largely in charge of what is taught and how it's taught. Each province has a set of prescribed learning outcomes (PLO) as stated by the ministry:

    The prescribed learning outcomes set the learning standards for the provincial K to 12 education system and form the prescribed curriculum for British Columbia. They are statements of what students are expected to know and do at the end of an indicated grade or course.

    Schools have the responsibility to ensure that all prescribed learning outcomes in each IRP are met; however, schools have flexibility in determining how delivery of the prescribed learning outcomes can best take place. It is expected that student achievement will vary in relation to the prescribed learning outcomes. Evaluation, reporting, and student placement with respect to these outcomes are dependent on the professional judgment and experience of teachers, guided by provincial policy.



    There really is no comparable job to teaching and it comes down to the people on the ground doing the job to know what can and can't be achieved.

    An analogy would be a a companies accounting department. You give them computers, photocopiers, paper, pens, calculators, filing cabinets desks, stamps, chairs etc and you tell get them sorted out and you say GO. You're the accounting staff do that thing you do so well. And you have a staff of 10 each doing 3000 accounts. Which is about max load for each

    Then a new owner comes in (government) and says I can save money - he fires 5 of the ten - doubling the workload of the remaining 5 and asks them to take a 10% pay cut. But don't worry he says - in return I'll buy you nicer chairs and make your job easier with the Uniblab 5000 computer so your job will be easier and you can do right by the customers - your work environment will be much better.

    Then the next owner comes in and tears up the last contract - err uniblab - and buys the cheapest most uncomfortable chairs and no longer supplies pens pencils papers or computers - you have to come up with that on your own (hence teachers buying classroom supplies and food for their students). Oh and we want you take another pay cut and we'll get rid of another 2 people so now the three remaining can dived that work amongst themselves.

    Cost to the bottom baby.

    Teachers work under the mandate of the elected government and the PLOs - you can read them for ever grade and subject taught in the BC school system - here Curriculum

    But take the funding and look at French. I know the teacher in BC who developed the French IRPs for BC. He's now a University professor and holds two PHDs and was on his way to a third. He's a smart guy.

    Teachers in one grade are to evaluate students on their French conversation ability. Sounds good to me - conversational French is important in practical terms in Canada. In later grades they evaluate reading and writing as well.

    So says I "If I am the classroom teacher and I don't speak French then how do I grade them on their French conversation ability" - To which he simply shrugged and said that this is what the expectations are as set out by the government - they don't fund it so it doesn't get done.

    Of course it doesn't get done - not properly - because there are very few French speaking elementary school teachers. And the one's they did have are now doing what the librarians are doing - driving around to different schools to be the French teacher on Tuesday in one place and on Friday a different school. Assuming there is one available.

    The issue is then that some schools get it properly and some schools don't - it applies to many other subjects as well.

    Parents should treat schools like Universities - which school offers my kid what subjects and where do they excel? This is a steadily declining road and it's getting worse and worse and worse. The people at the top never walk into the classrooms - it would be like a company owner with one plant and he never walks into the plant to see the working conditions.

    Anyway - I think Bill 22 represents something wider reaching than just the teachers that Canadians should have some concern

    Constitutional and international law at risk under Bill 22

  23. #73
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    WARNNG: Graatious, tastless atemp at humor.

    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael View Post
    I have been reading along with this thread and keeping my two cents to myself, but I read something in RGA's last link that I must comment on. The statement was, "Today at Claremont there is 3/4 of a librarian."

    WTF?! Where is the other 25 percent of this librarian?
    She used to wok at the IHOP. He name is Eileen.

  24. #74
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw View Post
    She used to wok at the IHOP. He name is Eileen.
    Maybe I should have mentioned that I was joking too. RGA explained the 3/4 to me.
    Rich, man, I'm not THAT dumb.

    The above is a joke.
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  25. #75
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    ...
    Feanor

    I thought you hated the word philosophical - so don't bring up that level

    The main difference in private sector or public policy is that the people in charge KNOW the intricacies of their charge. The owners of a company know what is best for their companies and they hire people with knowledge to get the task done.

    The owner of the company doesn't tell the accountant how to be an accountant - the accountant knows accounting FAR better than the owner (in most instances) - the owner leads the ship and hires people to execute the given task. Accountants are only one part of a business - you need to rely on sales, purchasing, marketing etc. Combined each gets what the owner or board of directors wants.

    Education doesn't really work like that in the same way. Teachers are somewhat independent - they are in charge of the classroom and they're largely in charge of what is taught and how it's taught. Each province has a set of prescribed learning outcomes (PLO) as stated by the ministry:

    The prescribed learning outcomes set the learning standards for the provincial K to 12 education system and form the prescribed curriculum for British Columbia. They are statements of what students are expected to know and do at the end of an indicated grade or course.

    Schools have the responsibility to ensure that all prescribed learning outcomes in each IRP are met; however, schools have flexibility in determining how delivery of the prescribed learning outcomes can best take place. It is expected that student achievement will vary in relation to the prescribed learning outcomes. Evaluation, reporting, and student placement with respect to these outcomes are dependent on the professional judgment and experience of teachers, guided by provincial policy.
    ...
    Teachers work under the mandate of the elected government and the PLOs - you can read them for ever grade and subject taught in the BC school system - here Curriculum
    ...
    "The owner [or CEO] of the company doesn't tell the accountant how to be an accountant", say what? Better ask Enron about that.

    I think you over estimate the independence of teachers and under estimate that of in other fields working in private business. Many professionals, work with significant independence in private business within the constraint of policy, rules, and budgets. The really isn't much different that teachers working under the BC outcomes & learning standards you referring to.

    Methinks, in some degree, you are arrogating to teacher practitioners greater prerogatives than they have, or should presume to have.

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