Bad Parenting

[topspeed]

There was an excellent editorial in Autoweek regarding an 18 year old that was given a brand new BMW M5, this despite the fact that the kid was so inexperienced that he didn't even know how to drive a stick! Bare in mind, the M5 is a 500hp, V10 powered rocket that is designed to be driven on the ragged edge. The consequences were predictable.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...6803/1530/FREE

Dutch Mandel
Accountability starts here

On the last weekend in January, Josh Ammirato, 18, slammed into a tree near Ocala, Florida. He killed himself and four others in his car.

I don't know Josh, but I know a lot of 18-year-olds, so this story hits hard for a few reasons--not the least of which is the dearth of effective driver training in this country.

It also hits because of respect and accountability--respect for the cars we drive and holding kids and parents accountable for their actions.

Hours before piloting his 500-hp '08 BMW M5 off the end of the Greystone airstrip in Anthony, Florida, and into a tree at triple-digit speeds, Josh was surfing the web for information on how to go faster. In posts to www.M5board.com, he sought ways to shift the sequential manual gearbox more quickly and smoothly.

He'd had his M5 for three weeks; the car was registered to his father, Santo.

"Let me say I am [a] beginner when it comes to high performance cars as I am only 18 so take it easy on me," he wrote.

Members of the site suggested he start slowly, that this was not a car to be trifled with. Time would earn him needed experience. Others expressed skepticism that he could have a V10 M5 at his young age; still, they warned him to be cool until he got more seat time.

"[The] fact that I never drove a manual car before may be true, but I've been driving for a lot longer than two years buddy," he wrote.

The tragic results speak for themselves.

Could advanced driver training have saved Josh and his four friends? It's tough to say. Could respect for his car's abilities have altered his behavior that night? Absolutely.

Here's a bigger question: How could a father arm a child with such a machine, particularly without skills to control it?

I know that 18-year-olds are adults. I know a few who can handle such a ride, such as pro race driver Graham Rahal.

But this is one situation where parents must be accountable and just say no.

We want our kids to have it better than we did. It's natural. But we must balance that want with tough love and sensibility.

If we are unwilling to do that, more children like Josh will kill themselves and their friends.

This scenario was absolutely not the child's fault. Handing an inexperienced teenager the keys to car with the M5's capabilities is like replacing a toddler's juice box with with a loaded weapon. I used to frequent site called bimmerforums.com to get information and ideas for my car. Unfortunately, the site has been overrun by kids just like Josh who treat it as their own personal egotrip. When some of the members, myself included, tell these kids that they really shouldn't be driving a M car at their age without proper instruction and experience, we are immediately disregarded as jealous haters or geriatrics waiting for our bedpan to be changed. Meanwhile, these kids tell stories of blowing off their rival's Civics while street racing.

The question becomes: "Whose fault is it?"

Teenagers...especially teenage boys...are the same as they have always been; They know everything and they're invincible. It's the one time in our life this occurs. I remember desperately wanting a Porsche for my 17th birthday, just like my friend got. Much to my chagrin, I had a rusted out '74 Ram Charger that was so dirty it literally had mushrooms growing out of the Harvest Gold shag carpet the previous owner had installed. My friend? He wrecked his Porsche while driving too quickly in the wet. Today, I realize that had my parents succumbed to my endless whining, I'd likely be dead.

To me, at best Josh's scenario is a parent trying to buy their son's love. At worst, it's an adult with a complete disregard for common sense and the safety of their child. "Reckless" is really the only word the fits.

[Groundbeef]

There was an excellent editorial in Autoweek regarding an 18 year old that was given a brand new BMW M5, this despite the fact that the kid was so inexperienced that he didn't even know how to drive a stick! Bare in mind, the M5 is a 500hp, V10 powered rocket that is designed to be driven on the ragged edge. The consequences were predictable.

Teenagers...especially teenage boys...are the same as they have always been; They know everything and they're invincible. It's the one time in our life this occurs. I remember desperately wanting a Porsche for my 17th birthday, just like my friend got. Much to my chagrin, I had a rusted out '74 Ram Charger that was so dirty it literally had mushrooms growing out of the Harvest Gold shag carpet the previous owner had installed. My friend? He wrecked his Porsche while driving too quickly in the wet. Today, I realize that had my parents succumbed to my endless whining, I'd likely be dead.

To me, at best Josh's scenario is a parent trying to buy their son's love. At worst, it's an adult with a complete disregard for common sense and the safety of their child. "Reckless" is really the only word the fits.

While I appreciate your story, I think your key phrase (above highlighted). The car they are in may play a role, but doesn't determine it.

When I was in HS, our Validictorian managed to kill himself, and 3 others after he rolled his parents Honda Accord on a suburban back street. I happens ALL the time. Honda, Toyota, BMW, Audi, whatever. If it has 4 wheels and an engine, it will go.

There was one time in my life when I drove my fathers 10 year old Honda Accord (it was an '82). I think I almost killed myself about 4 times. Got 3 speeding tickets, ran some reds, and did the usual stuipid I can't kill myself BS. Luckily I didn't.

Now I drive a minivan with 3 kids in the rear, doing the limit (maybe 5-8 over on the highway).

As you stated, its the age. Not the car.

[ForeverAutumn]

The age limit to get a driver's licence here is 16. Personally, I think it's too young. The government says that you aren't allowed to vote at 16. If you aren't responsible enough to vote, how on earth can you be responsible enough to drive?!

I was never a teenage boy, but my parents made me wait until I was 18 before they let me get my license. At 16, they didn't think that I was responsible enough...they were right. Even at 18 my Dad wouldn't let me take lessons in the summer, I had to wait until winter so that I could learn in difficult conditions. He was a smart man.

I agree with Groundbeef that a car is a car, but I also think that parents need to know their kids and if they don't think that the kid is responsible enough to drive then don't let them!

There was another story that I read recently which showed the other side. Mom bought son a car to take to college, but set down specific rules including the car must be locked at all times and absolutely no alcohol. When Mom found the car unlocked and an empty bottle in the back seat, the car was sold. End of story and son is alive and well.

[topspeed]

There was one time in my life when I drove my fathers 10 year old Honda Accord (it was an '82). I think I almost killed myself about 4 times. Got 3 speeding tickets, ran some reds, and did the usual stuipid I can't kill myself BS. Luckily I didn't.

That is exactly my point. A teenager will find a way to get a speeding ticket on a lawn mower. This is why it's so important to NOT give them 500 horses to gallop around with. You almost killed yourself with an Accord that put out 82hp back in '82. Multiply that times five and imagine what would have happened?

Your father was a wise man.

[audio amateur]

Some people live in lala land.. Although this obviously is sad, I hope it teaches the father a lesson.

[topspeed]

There was another story that I read recently which showed the other side. Mom bought son a car to take to college, but set down specific rules including the car must be locked at all times and absolutely no alcohol. When Mom found the car unlocked and an empty bottle in the back seat, the car was sold. End of story and son is alive and well.

I saw the ad in one of my car mags. It was great!

http://consumerist.com/343442/copywr...ia-classifieds

[GMichael]

I believe the point Top is making is driver's ed. Young drivers need to be educated before they are turned loose on the streets. 500hp just means that they are driving a rocket launcher instead of a hand gun. Both will kill. One is just a little better at it.

Back when I was going to school, they did away with the Driver's Ed to help pay for the new pool. It then became mandatory to know how to swim before a kid could graduate HS. Seems a little bass ackwards to me. They were nice enough to train me to be a lifeguard, something I never got to use. But teach me how to drive? Nope, no need. Who drives a car anyhow?

[topspeed]

The only education that might work is a bonafide racing school. Contrary to popular belief, these types of schools are most certainly not about going fast. They are all about car control and understanding the physics behind set-ups.

Even then, I'm still not sure any amount of education would be good enough. Unless the kid is inordinately mature for their age, the challenge lies not in the skill, but the ego. There's a saying in racing: Never let your nerve out run your talent. Unfortunately, most teens drink from a well of ego deeper than The Abyss. I don't know about you guys, but I was convinced I was invincible at 18...and I did countless stupid things testing that theory. There was definitely a reason that while my older sisters had Firebirds and Mustangs, the only boy (and car nut) had big 'ol trucks where speed was dependent on tailwinds and whether I was going downhill.

[Groundbeef]

The only education that might work is a bonafide racing school. Contrary to popular belief, these types of schools are most certainly not about going fast. They are all about car control and understanding the physics behind set-ups.

Even then, I'm still not sure any amount of education would be good enough. Unless the kid is inordinately mature for their age, the challenge lies not in the skill, but the ego. There's a saying in racing: Never let your nerve out run your talent. Unfortunately, most teens drink from a well of ego deeper than The Abyss. I don't know about you guys, but I was convinced I was invincible at 18...and I did countless stupid things testing that theory. There was definitely a reason that while my older sisters had Firebirds and Mustangs, the only boy (and car nut) had big 'ol trucks where speed was dependent on tailwinds and whether I was going downhill.

Dont get me wrong, I think the parents are foolish to purchase a car like that for a kid. But then again, parents do all sorts of stupid things. My neighbor bought their daughter a cherry red BMW (new). I think it was a total waste of money.

6 months ago, she had a medical issue, and passed out behind the wheel. (no alcohol, just a undiagnosed medical condition). She rolled into a cross street and was hit broadside by a truck. Had that car been a 10 year old beater she probably would have died. As luck would have it, Daddy had spent the big bucks, got it fully loaded. Side airbags saved her life, as did the German Engineering (Safety cage, buckled seatbelt). She had to be cut out, but suffered little more than bumps and scratches.

So who's the fool now?

Point being it comes down to training, and making good choices. I can kill myself in a 10 year old beater, or a new car.

[Woochifer]

Had a similar story around here a few months ago. A couple of high school seniors in San Jose were killed when the driver lost control of his 350Z and slammed into a tree. The tragedy here is that they also struck and killed two pedestrians who were just out on an evening walk. The driver was piloting that Z car over 80MPH through a winding residential neighborhood. A lot of people in the newspapers and on blogs were chiming in, and those comments too lay a lot of responsibility on the parents for giving a teenager a Z car.

http://www.nbc11.com/news/13742979/d...l?dl=mainclick

I guess I was fortunate that my first car was a hand-me-down VW Bug -- 45 HP and a top speed of 80 MPH ... going downhill and with the wind!

[Woochifer]

Dont get me wrong, I think the parents are foolish to purchase a car like that for a kid. But then again, parents do all sorts of stupid things. My neighbor bought their daughter a cherry red BMW (new). I think it was a total waste of money.

6 months ago, she had a medical issue, and passed out behind the wheel. (no alcohol, just a undiagnosed medical condition). She rolled into a cross street and was hit broadside by a truck. Had that car been a 10 year old beater she probably would have died. As luck would have it, Daddy had spent the big bucks, got it fully loaded. Side airbags saved her life, as did the German Engineering (Safety cage, buckled seatbelt). She had to be cut out, but suffered little more than bumps and scratches.

So who's the fool now?

Point being it comes down to training, and making good choices. I can kill myself in a 10 year old beater, or a new car.

BMW's not the only car out there with those kinds of safety features. She could've driven any less expensive car with side airbags and a high side impact rating and come out of that accident just as intact.

And with 10-year old beaters, you never know. Passenger cars back then were already required to have side impact protection beams in the doors, whereas light trucks (SUVs, minivans, pickups, etc.) were not and I think still aren't.

[thekid]

A couple of thoughts...

First our state has a law that teenage drivers can not have more than two other teenager in the car with them who is not an immediate relative. I think it cuts down on some of the mental lapses that occur when you have a gaggle of teenagers bouncing around in the seats distracting the driver.

In my line of work over the years I have seen the results too many times of teenagers being given cars that is in many ways beyond their limited driving experience. It is true that teenagers will do dumb things behind the wheel no matter if it is a land yacht or the latest over-powered sports car. But why parents fail to consider that when getting their kids a car is beyond me. Parents who insisted on training wheels for the new bike until their kids prove they have learned to ride somehow do not have a problem throwing their kids the keys to 350hp poorly designed death box.

There is a "Fast and the Furious" culture out there (no I am not saying the movie is the cause here-it is a reflection) where kids are taking flimsy 2-doors like Civics and Neons and putting in engine modifications or making suspension modifications with absolutely no concept or concern for how it affects the way the the car was engineered. Bad parents??-You bet because I have stood there listening to parents who speak proudly about the fact they are relieved their kid is not on drugs so they don't have a problem paying for their kid's "hobby" of modifying their cars. Parents/governments will pass laws banning a ton of things they percieve as "anti-family" but the speed shop down the corner butchering cars so that they don't brake or handle properly anymore is okay. Go figure. I know I probably sound like some old man like Henry Fonda in "On Golden Pond" (Go read Treasure Island!!) but once you have seen some of these cars after they have rolled or "drifted" into a tree at 100mph and had to talk to a parent who just lost their son/daughter you will have a different perspective.

The last thing I will mention since Wooch brought it up. There is a bit of a fallacy out there about air bags. Don't get me wrong they do save lives and I want them in every place they can fit them now a days but their design and purpose is limited to really only protecting you during the initial impact. As a matter of fact in many cases they are actually starting to deflate at the time the driver/passenger contact them. After the intial impact they do deflate and are of no benefit on subsequent collisions which is often the case when high speed is involved. I have been to the IIHS testing center and have seen the testing and the test results on a lot of vehicles and in a lot of cases while the air bags resulted in the test dummy "surviving" the accident the resulting injuries would have left the driver/passenger with brain damage or crippled for the rest of their life.

As has been pointed out a car is a car,driver education and the maturity level of the teenager are also factors but parents can't stop being parents once their kids get a license or turn 18. Sorry for the long rant it is just a topic I feel strongly about based on my personal experience and as the father of 2 teen age kids.

[ForeverAutumn]

There is a "Fast and the Furious" culture out there (no I am not saying the movie is the cause here-it is a reflection) where kids are taking flimsy 2-doors like Civics and Neons and putting in engine modifications or making suspension modifications with absolutely no concept or concern for how it affects the way the the car was engineered.

Here's a solution....Pass a law that makes certain engine modifications illegal. If a car is found with any of those modifications (whether it was involved in a race at the time or not), permanently impound it on the spot and destroy it. No opportunity to turn your car back, it is just gone. Then make the people who own the car and the mechanics who modified it criminally responsible.

Ontario passed a law last October to try to reduce high speeds. If you're caught driving 50km over the speed limit it's an automatic 7 day licence suspension and 7 day impound for your car. And minimum fine of $2,000.

28 people were charged the first day that the law went into effect!

[thekid]

Here's a solution....Pass a law that makes certain engine modifications illegal. If a car is found with any of those modifications (whether it was involved in a race at the time or not), permanently impound it on the spot and destroy it. No opportunity to turn your car back, it is just gone. Then make the people who own the car and the mechanics who modified it criminally responsible.

Ontario passed a law last October to try to reduce high speeds. If you're caught driving 50km over the speed limit it's an automatic 7 day licence suspension and 7 day impound for your car. And minimum fine of $2,000.

28 people were charged the first day that the law went into effect!

Not a bad idea but to be honest there are existing laws on the books regarding suspension modifications/bumper height that if enforced would take care a lot of these issues. For example I live in a coastal area where a lot of people put lift kits on their pick-ups supposed so they can take their trucks out onto the beach and go fishing. First in many areas around here you can even drive on the beach anymore so the need no longer exists and secondly these things are so high that if they rear end anyone smaller than a Sherman tank they will go over the top of the rear bumper or other safety features designed to protect someone in the event of a rear collision. I have sat in traffic next to these things with a cop sitting two cars back and they don't even give it a second thought.

[Groundbeef]

Here's a solution....Pass a law that makes certain engine modifications illegal. If a car is found with any of those modifications (whether it was involved in a race at the time or not), permanently impound it on the spot and destroy it. No opportunity to turn your car back, it is just gone. Then make the people who own the car and the mechanics who modified it criminally responsible.

Ontario passed a law last October to try to reduce high speeds. If you're caught driving 50km over the speed limit it's an automatic 7 day licence suspension and 7 day impound for your car. And minimum fine of $2,000.

28 people were charged the first day that the law went into effect!

That might fly in Canada, but I would never support it as an American. Talk about swatting a fly with a hammer, but that is wayyyyy over the top.

Modifications per se are not the problem. Its the way in which they are used that is the problem.

We have enough problems with drug interdiction busts. Technically any asset that has been used in conjunction with drugs can be seized by the arresting agency. Then these assests can either be sold, or in the case of "cash" used by the agency for whatever use they decide best.

See any problems with that? What do you do in the case of a teenager busted with a joint in his friends car. Now the family car is impounded, and sold. Meanwhile a family is without transportation, and might very well still owe money on a loan for that very car. Now what? Does that seem equitable? I think not.

Or, how do you differentiate cash in someone's wallet, and what the arresting officer feels may be "drug money"? In many agencies this is felt to be a boon, and much of their operating budgets come from seized assets. The majority of these cases do NOT involve high level players in the drug trade.

Secondly, the burden of proof has shifted in these cases from the Police (needing to show undisputable guilt of the accused), to the Defendant needing to PROVE they haven't participated in a crime. Thats a fundamental shift in the American Justice system, and it stinks.

I'm not involved in drugs, and don't modify my car. I have friends that work for the FBI, and are Judges. But I don't agree that this power belongs in the hands of the police without proper oversight.

[thekid]

Ground

I don't disagree with you. The closest analogy I can make since you mentioned drugs is that years ago there were what they called "head" shops where all sorts of smoking paraphanelia could be bought the perception/reality was that the shops were selling equipment used for the consumption of illegal drugs. Communities banded together and legislated them out of business but many of these speed shops sell equipment that is not illegal according to many state/traffic laws until they are installed on the car. How insane is that? You can buy it but if you use it then we have a problem.

The police really don't need to be the enforcers on this in many places where it is a requirment that the vehicle is inspected. It could be as simple as removing/impounding the illegal equipment. Of course there are ways around this but maybe if you get caught for speeding and you have these modifications then the car gets impounded.

I understand your point about not putting a hardship on the parent but to me it gets back to the topic of bad parenting. If this is the family car then there is no way the parent does not know this stuff is on the car. If it is on the kids car then where is the parent while all this stuff is getting put on? Either way I think the parent bears responsibility for the kids action so if the car gets impounded I don't have a problem with it.

[Groundbeef]

Ground

I don't disagree with you. The closest analogy I can make since you mentioned drugs is that years ago there were what they called "head" shops where all sorts of smoking paraphanelia could be bought the perception/reality was that the shops were selling equipment used for the consumption of illegal drugs. Communities banded together and legislated them out of business but many of these speed shops sell equipment that is not illegal according to many state/traffic laws until they are installed on the car. How insane is that? You can buy it but if you use it then we have a problem.

The police really don't need to be the enforcers on this in many places where it is a requirment that the vehicle is inspected. It could be as simple as removing/impounding the illegal equipment. Of course there are ways around this but maybe if you get caught for speeding and you have these modifications then the car gets impounded.

I understand your point about not putting a hardship on the parent but to me it gets back to the topic of bad parenting. If this is the family car then there is no way the parent does not know this stuff is on the car. If it is on the kids car then where is the parent while all this stuff is getting put on? Either way I think the parent bears responsibility for the kids action so if the car gets impounded I don't have a problem with it.

No, I think you are missing the point. Who decides what modifcation is "illegal". What about Champion spark plugs? If you buy the platinum brand, vs the regular brand, they suggest a power boost of 3-5%. So now do the cops have to pull spark wires up to check out your engine?

Or what if I want to use premium fuel versus regular. What do you care if a kid has a engine modification? What about the middle age man that gets pulled over in his Porche with Turbo. Should that be impounded as well?

This law would have nothing to do with parenting, and more to do with what YOU feel people should/shouldn't do with their car.

I'm no research scientist, but I would be willing to bet that there are FAR more accidents/death in autos caused by alcohol usage. Why don't we become more concerned with that problem and stop chasing these red herrings.

BTW, as far as these "kids" go, I don't have a problem with them modding their cars. No different than in the 50's when our parents were tooling with intakes/carborators and weight modification. In 10-15 years, these are going to be the same crew that is either designing/making/repairing your car anyway.

[ForeverAutumn]

That might fly in Canada, but I would never support it as an American. Talk about swatting a fly with a hammer, but that is wayyyyy over the top.
...

See any problems with that? What do you do in the case of a teenager busted with a joint in his friends car. Now the family car is impounded, and sold. Meanwhile a family is without transportation, and might very well still owe money on a loan for that very car. Now what? Does that seem equitable? I think not.

Okay, maybe my solution is a little hard core. Perhaps there's an easier way. But in those 28 people that were busted in the first day for driving 50km over the speed limit...btw, the law is officially called the "street racing law"...one of them was a kid who was out in his mom's car. The car was impounded for a week (not to mention the minimum $2,000 fine). I'll bet that kid isn't getting the use of Mom's car again anytime soon. And that's a good thing. Sorry for the mom, but her kid could have killed someone.

[thekid]

Groundbeef

The mods I am talking about are not tweaks like gas/plugs. Also you really need to look at some of this stuff before you compare it to the work done on the jalopy back in the 50's and 60's which might have given you a few more mph or were cosmetic mostly. Cars back then were pretty basic and there was relatively speaking a limited mod that could be done in terms of the engine and suspension because there was not a lot of aftermarket equipment available. In any case its the mind set as much as the equipment I am talking about.

Back in the days that you referred to there were kids doing some racing or maybe palying "chicken" but it was typically done in some out of the way place and they mostly went out of their way not to be noticed. Today it is almost the opposite. Are you familiar with the game of "tag"?? If not I will clue you in. It is were a group of kids gets together in a single location and a stretch of roadway-almost always a major highway- is selected as the field of play. One person is designated as "it" the others take off and are given a 10-20 minute headstart. Rules are simple after that, the person who is "it" needs to "tag" one of the other players with their front bumper. Next time you are in a parking lot and notice one of those little 2-door pocket rockets with different color bumpers or lots of damage to the front and rear bumpers odds are its a tagger. While this game is often played late at night some of the hard core have taken to playing it during the day so that their mounted dash and ground cameras can record the game which gets made into a DVD and sold at various venues.

I will grant you some of them are gear heads but alot of them are just adrenalin freaks or addicted to risk who are not even the ones working on the cars. They are just paying the money so I am not buying the "future engineers of America" angle.

Not doubt alcohol kills more people behind the wheel than this problem but it is a growing problem and if you went to your local salvage yard you might be surprised how big a problem it is. I am not trying to appoint myself judge and jury here just pointing out a problem. There are alot of the people selling and installing this equipment who KNOW that these modifications make the car unsafe. My orginal point and the point of this topic was that parents are absent in the equation when all of this stuff is happening.

I understand your Big Brother/anti legislative angle but my general rule of thumb is that your rights end where mine begin. Translation= these modded cars are being driven on public highways. Police have no problems pulling truckers over for illegal or faulty equipment why should these cars be any different? If you want a yardstick for who determines these things to be legal let it be the manufacturers they engineered the car they know what can and cannot be done to it. Parts that should not be modded could be identified by the manufacturer.

Any way great debating with you and hopefully we will never meet by "accident"......

[Woochifer]

Here's a solution....Pass a law that makes certain engine modifications illegal. If a car is found with any of those modifications (whether it was involved in a race at the time or not), permanently impound it on the spot and destroy it. No opportunity to turn your car back, it is just gone. Then make the people who own the car and the mechanics who modified it criminally responsible.

Some communities have already done just that. Last year in Long Beach, CA, the police there invited the media to attend a car crushing. The car had been confiscated for having an unregistered engine and other modifications for street racing. The police suspect that stolen parts were used because the VIN numbers had been removed. It made quite a bit of news, and the teenager involved had a few people on various blogs and other media on his side, until he was busted a few weeks later for felony grand auto theft.

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2007/11...illegally.html

Back in the days that you referred to there were kids doing some racing or maybe palying "chicken" but it was typically done in some out of the way place and they mostly went out of their way not to be noticed. Today it is almost the opposite. Are you familiar with the game of "tag"?? If not I will clue you in. It is were a group of kids gets together in a single location and a stretch of roadway-almost always a major highway- is selected as the field of play. One person is designated as "it" the others take off and are given a 10-20 minute headstart. Rules are simple after that, the person who is "it" needs to "tag" one of the other players with their front bumper. Next time you are in a parking lot and notice one of those little 2-door pocket rockets with different color bumpers or lots of damage to the front and rear bumpers odds are its a tagger. While this game is often played late at night some of the hard core have taken to playing it during the day so that their mounted dash and ground cameras can record the game which gets made into a DVD and sold at various venues.

This kind of stuff happens everywhere and has been ongoing for a while. When I was a kid, the older teenagers always talked about drag racing. But, it was always done in remote areas. If anything, they didn't want to attract a lot of attention. It seems that street racers nowdays want the attention, and it takes more and more dangerous stunts to get noticed nowadays.

I was living in Oakland when the whole "sideshow" phenomenon was getting started. It started off as spontaneous gatherings of muscle car owners getting together in a designated parking lot and doing donuts, while the crowd parties and makes movies of the events. In more recent years, the size of the sideshows have gotten progressively bigger, and now they take place on public streets, where the crowds would basically block off busy intersections and the cars would do donuts, and then the whole throng would split up and race off to another location before the police arrive. It's gotten out of control because bystanders or people in the wrong place at the wrong time have gotten injured.

Even in San Francisco, I'm always hearing about street racers getting killed while racing on hilly streets and dodging buses and streetcars. It's just beyond stupid to try racing in San Francisco because of the short city blocks, blind approaches on the hills, and numerous pedestrians. I guess this is natural selection in action, and unfortunately more than just the drivers often get killed in the process.

[thekid]

Wooch

Good info,

I am aware it has been going on for some time that why I said that the movie "Fast and Furious" was a reflection not a cause of this type of behavior. In one weekend alone in the Washington DC area a couple of years ago there were 8 confirmed fatalities associated with either street racing or drifting. The Long Beach demonstration is interesting as well. I know that law enforcement has gotten interested in this new "hobby" because the cost of a lot of these upgrades is beyond the wallet of most of the kids so they turn to other means in some cases that are illegal. There have been several theft and crystal meth rings busted that were infiltrated by law enforcement through these modern day "car clubs" who were using the proceeds to pay for their modifications. Also damages to cars while drifting or tagging are also becoming a source of insurance fraud as the owners know that the losses may not be covered or at the very least they might see higher insurance costs if they honestly report how the loss occurred. There is even info out there that this kids look at that rate the insurances companies on how easy it is to get your claim paid for if it is damaged when engaged in one of these illegal activities.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying everyone who modifies their car or has a tricked out Civic is a drug dealing scum of the earth. It is a small segment. The overwhelming majority of them are putting this equipment on by working or as I mentioned earlier just hitting Mom and Dad up for the money.

I am more concerned about the safety aspect of it since I share the road with these things. I spend a lot of time on the road around the country and have witnessed the type of "street racing" that is now going on in the middle of the day on major highways more times than I can count. Like the kid with the BMW when something goes wrong during these stunts the driver and often the car itself can't recover.

Geez it would be nice if I knew as much about audio as I do about this topic.....

[diggity]

the problem with passing laws is how do they police it? check every car on the road every day? the ones dieing are the ones who arent getting caught. here in australia the following rules apply to all learner drivers:

1: learner driver may apply for licence at the age of 16. learner only allowed to drive with a driver who has held full license for 5 years in the passenger seat.
2: must have 150 hours with a qualified driving instructor and must have driven in all weather conditions and 50 hours at night before they allowed to apply for a provisional license test. a provisional license is a license where they are allowed to drive solo but only at 80km/h (50m/h). with 0.00 blood alcohol level.
3: must have held provsional license for at least 1 year before allowed to apply for a second tier provisional license test. this license is the same as above but now allowed two passengers and to drive at 60m/h.
4: must have held second tier license for at least 1 year before allowed to apply for full license test.

for all those careful readers thats counts to four tests, which include practical and theory, and roughly 5 years before one goes from being a learner driver to full licence driver. and through all this time turbo driven cars are not allowed to be driven or instant loss of license and car. sounds good but deaths still happen and if anything have increased since these laws were introduced. i now drive honda s2000 and although i love this car i wouldn't recomend it to someone without driving experience.and that is what it boils down to, experience not laws. i was driving a modified nissan all through my provisional period and not once did i get caught for the massive turbo under its bonnet, why? no one bothered to look!

cheers: dazza

[ForeverAutumn]

So what do you think of this story that was in the news this morning?

Two Toronto men from wealthy families are facing a $2 million lawsuit brought by the widow of a Pakistani taxi driver killed in a car collision.

Tahir Khan was days away from acquiring his Canadian citizenship when he was killed after his taxi was struck by a Mercedes Benz in January 2006.

Alexander Ryazanov and Wang-Piao Dumani Ross, who were driving in separate Mercedes Benzs, pleaded guilty to dangerous driving causing death and were sentenced to a year's house arrest.

Lawyers for Ross and Ryazanov denied their clients were racing but admitted their speeding constituted dangerous driving.

The lawsuit, which claims the two were racing, also seeks to hold the young mens' parents partially responsible.

The allegations, made in the statement of claim filed in Ontario Superior Court, have not been proven.

At the time of the accident the boys were 18. They were driving 140km/hr in a 50km zone. One of them fled the scene. They were released on bail and later sentenced to one year house arrest.

I don't know that sending a couple of stupid kids to jail would have done anyone any good in this situation. But I sure as hell hope that the cabbie's family wins this case. Whether they were racing or just driving too fast as they claim, their stupidity cost a man his life.

Do you think that the parents should also be held accountable? I have mixed feelings about that.

[kexodusc]

Do you think that the parents should also be held accountable? I have mixed feelings about that.

Can't really allow that to happen - if 18 yr olds are old enough to vote, age of majority, etc, they need to have all the rights and responsbilities associated with that. Solely. Gotta draw the line somewhere. If society thinks 18 is too young, so be it. Change it. But until then it's 18.
Around 13 or so a human being should be old enough to think for themselves about certain basic rights and wrongs, duty of care. Even a really dumb one should have it nailed by the time they're 16. Ignorance is no excuse. Nail'em.

Yeah, the family should win, probably a lot more than what they're asking for.
Going after the parents reeks of lawyers throwing suits at the wall and seeing what sticks.

[topspeed]

The fact that the kid's were 18 at the time of the accident is the most troubling. As Kex noted, the law sees them as adults. Maybe the parents shouldn't be held liable now that they boys are legal audults? I can see this going either way, although because the kids have no $ but the parents most certainly do, the lawyers will go after the deepest pockets. I'm surprised they didn't name Mercedes Benz in the lawsuit as well for providing a car capable of speeding. Either way, the one year house arrest seemed awfully lenient considering the loss of life.