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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
If I was looking to enter a market or eliminate one of two products I was selling, it would seem the money maker would be the 2x opposed to just x. And, the x, lagging behind would be the obvious one to be eliminated. Unless of course, in Paramount's example, some one pays you enough to make it worth your while. Long term maybe sales will swing but 2 to 1 current sales would indicate BR had more supporters.
Dave, I enjoy the exchange of ideas and hang in there because we need the input or views of HD-DVD supporters to sort of keep things balanced or not let us BR people lose touch with reality. We all can only speculate.
I agree that of those choices I would want the same as you suggest. I guess my thinking is that Toshiba's plans to boost standalone players will swing that ratio the other way to a large degree (although certainly not 2:1) longer-term at Warner. If it doesn't by the end of next year then the strategy failed IMO, and they will have to concede defeat if they are wise. I believe that won't be the case, but I am just guessing like everyone else. The studio payoff aspect is indeed another avenue, but BR can also do that. I think BR would be just as willing as HD DVD to pay Warner off if they will take it. Warner makes money from either camp it chooses in that scenario (so I don't think HD DVD could get them to choose in their favor on a payoff alone).
In the case of BR, no matter what Warner does, there will always be a place for it with the gaming market no matter what happens with relation to HD DVD on movie and player sales (not to imply HD DVD will "win," just a for instance). If BR comes out on top, then at least folks can say they only paid $100 for an HD DVD player. ;-)
---Dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Your thinking is outdated. Standalones are where it used to be at, but things have changed. Parsing a difference between a traditional standalone player and the PS3 is foolish since every PS3 has a internal bluray drive just like traditional standalones. You are doing a very typical HD DVD fanboy thing by not counting the PS3 as a player. Not only is that foolish, but it is why Toshiba and HD DVD are behind in disc sales to this day.
I think my viewpoint is very much relevant to the what will transpire. Keep in mind that I have nothing against the PS3, and may buy one myself now that they are $399. I am in no way disputing that every one of the players sold is capable of playing BR movies, and if buyers choose to play Blu-ray movies on them, they can and will.
That said, the Sony PS2 can play DVDs... How many people count them as standalone DVD players? Anyone who buys one *can* play DVDs on them, but how many actually do? This is not a standalone player in the same way a dedicated BR only player like my BDP-S1 is. That does not mean the PS3 is an "inferior" player (it isn't by any means), but most won't view it as a movie player for their living room system and as such, it won't drive software sales in the long-run.
Let's be honest here... Attach rates are much lower with game machines like the PS3, and you know this Sir T. If BR (or HD DVD) want to dominate, they have to sell dedicated movie *standalone* players like my Sony BDP-S1. Right now, most of the BR offerings are too expensive for most people to afford, and so they are not buying them. They will, however, once they come down in price. You dislike Toshiba's behavior because they have realized this and are doing it right now -- I on the contrary applaud them for it. BR may not like it, but they are going to have to do the same if they want to succeed long-term. The PS3 will *not* drive any format long-term. This is not a fanboy statement, it is just plain common business sense.
Toshiba and HD DVD are behind disc sales today because they still need to sell many more standalone players before they can turn the tide in their favor. I never said *no one* is buying software who owns a PS3... Obviously many are, especially at this relatively early point in the formats' life cycle. The attach rates are still just not the same, and will continue to decrease as early adopters are a lesser percentage of PS3 buyers over time.
---Dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
I have seen the gift card elsewhere.
you dont want to subtract free movies from the total price, how about the giftcard?
You're denial of reality aside, the free movies, coupled with the gift card, get the price of the blu down to under 200 bucks.
SO its not far off in price to the HD player, is more advanced, has better audio with uncompressed PCM, has more support, and is more advanced technologically,
so why again would anyone buy a HD player? To see transformers?:1:
If you read the post, I DIDN'T subtract the $100 gift card from the price. I only indicated that it was available. Either way, you can't subtract the 'free' movies, nor the gift card from the price of the unit.
I would argue however, that in terms of "Value" the gift card is MORE valuable than the free movies. At least with the gift card you can pick something else you want, versus 5 movies pre-determined for you.
The price of the BluRay player is STILL $399. Not $200. Please don't tell me you work with peoples money for a living. If so, they are in real trouble.
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A friend of mine who rents from Netflix told me that every rental he has gotten from them the disc comes with DVD on one side and the HD version on the other. I thought that was interesting and wonder how they get those. Maybe the expense keeps them off the consumer market.
Not meaning to get into the middle of anything but it would seem logical if I paid $399.00 for something and received $100.00 of it back, that the price then becomes $299.00. The fact that the $100.00 is in a different form doesn't matter. Retailers do the same practice by saying "buy it now for $99.00 after $50.00 rebate". Also, if you donate money to a charity and they give you a gift, let's say you join PBS and get a box set of Peter Paul & Mary, you must subtract the fair market value of that gift before taking the price of the membership as a deduction. So applying tax principles to the situation it would seem we'd also have to subtract the value of the movies from the price. Either way you look at it your $399.00 gets you more with the gift card and movies. But both camps were giving movies and probably still are. On the other hand one still has $399.00 missing from their wallet or bank account. You can't deposit the gift card or movies back into either to bring up your balance. So in conclusion, I have no conclusion.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
A friend of mine who rents from Netflix told me that every rental he has gotten from them the disc comes with DVD on one side and the HD version on the other. I thought that was interesting and wonder how they get those. Maybe the expense keeps them off the consumer market.
Not meaning to get into the middle of anything but it would seem logical if I paid $399.00 for something and received $100.00 of it back, that the price then becomes $299.00. The fact that the $100.00 is in a different form doesn't matter. Retailers do the same practice by saying "buy it now for $99.00 after $50.00 rebate". Also, if you donate money to a charity and they give you a gift, let's say you join PBS and get a box set of Peter Paul & Mary, you must subtract the fair market value of that gift before taking the price of the membership as a deduction. So applying tax principles to the situation it would seem we'd also have to subtract the value of the movies from the price. Either way you look at it your $399.00 gets you more with the gift card and movies. But both camps were giving movies and probably still are. On the other hand one still has $399.00 missing from their wallet or bank account. You can't deposit the gift card or movies back into either to bring up your balance. So in conclusion, I have no conclusion.
the conclusion is that "groundbeef" is totally lacking in the logic department.
If you buy a standalone player what are you gonna watch on it?
MOVIES.
If you get six at an average cost of 20 bucks thats a real value, same as the gift card.
The total cost of the player will be less than 200 bucks.
Your bank account will be lowered 399 bucks, true, but without these perks it would be lowered 620 bucks or so.
this is typical with bargains that marketers offer.
I got two gallons of ice cream for the price of one, my bank acct is still down five bucks,
but I have an extra tub of black almond.
Its funny that when tosh was doing the same thing HDDVD advocates were saying this lowered the true price of the player, I guess it depends on whose player is being bought
As for the combo discs the new Bourne release is advertising a HD/ DVD combo disc.
I guess it depends on what the studio wants to put out, but I have seen quite a few of these
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
A friend of mine who rents from Netflix told me that every rental he has gotten from them the disc comes with DVD on one side and the HD version on the other. I thought that was interesting and wonder how they get those. Maybe the expense keeps them off the consumer market.
These are the dreaded combo discs I detest from the HD DVD camp. Many of them (almost all of the earlier releases) cost $5.00 a disc more to the consumer, and most HD DVD users never use the DVD side (except maybe if they have kids for the car/van DVD player). I am beginning to think the combo disc may have been designed more for the rental market to save inventory space more than the direct to consumer sales market. No problem there if there was a no combo alternative at a lower price (and the combos were not so glitchy as they frequently are)... unfortunately there isn't. :-(
I tend to buy BR versions of all combo HD DVD releases if they are available as my personal message to those still offering them and forcing them on the HD DVD consumer. Somehow I guess my buying decisions have not had much of an effect on their thinking as they keep coming out with *more* of them... Grrrrrrrrr
---Dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
the conclusion is that "groundbeef" is totally lacking in the logic department.
If you buy a standalone player what are you gonna watch on it?
MOVIES.
If you get six at an average cost of 20 bucks thats a real value, same as the gift card.
The total cost of the player will be less than 200 bucks.
Your bank account will be lowered 399 bucks, true, but without these perks it would be lowered 620 bucks or so.
this is typical with bargains that marketers offer.
I got two gallons of ice cream for the price of one, my bank acct is still down five bucks,
but I have an extra tub of black almond.
Its funny that when tosh was doing the same thing HDDVD advocates were saying this lowered the true price of the player, I guess it depends on whose player is being bought
As for the combo discs the new Bourne release is advertising a HD/ DVD combo disc.
I guess it depends on what the studio wants to put out, but I have seen quite a few of these
If there's a $100 rebate, then yeah, the out-of-pocket, real-world cost of the player is $299.
But incorporating the give-away HD-DVD or BluRay titles at their full retail price as a measure of value added is a poor idea that just doesn't fairly represent the true value of the offer.
Look at the HD-DVD 5 free movie deal. You have to choose from 5 different columns, and most of the selections are pretty weak films. Even the acceptable selections you'd have to question first if the owner would otherwise have purchased that title if it wasn't a promo comp, and what price would that person have paid for that movie. In most cases the answer to the first question will be no, and if it is yes, the price most certainly won't be the assumed retail price assumed when those sales flyers suggest a "value of over $120" or whatever.
To me, in this case the 5 free HD-DVD's would be worth about $5-10 each, depending on the title. Not nearly as big an incentive as they try to convince you it is. Might as well give away "The Facts of Life: Season 1" as well.
Now, if they let you pick any 5 movies of all available selections, then it's reasonable to assume that just about everyone could find 5 titles they'd pay full retail for - in which case I would agree the value is worth $120 or whatever.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Not meaning to get into the middle of anything but it would seem logical if I paid $399.00 for something and received $100.00 of it back, that the price then becomes $299.00. The fact that the $100.00 is in a different form doesn't matter. Retailers do the same practice by saying "buy it now for $99.00 after $50.00 rebate". Also, if you donate money to a charity and they give you a gift, let's say you join PBS and get a box set of Peter Paul & Mary, you must subtract the fair market value of that gift before taking the price of the membership as a deduction. So applying tax principles to the situation it would seem we'd also have to subtract the value of the movies from the price. Either way you look at it your $399.00 gets you more with the gift card and movies. But both camps were giving movies and probably still are. On the other hand one still has $399.00 missing from their wallet or bank account. You can't deposit the gift card or movies back into either to bring up your balance. So in conclusion, I have no conclusion.
Two condtridictory statements.
Your first one would be correct if the $100 was in cash, and handed back to you at the end of the transaction. Then it would be $299.
If you are given a gift card to purchase ADDITIONAL items, then the price is still $399 PLUS free gifts.
Your last statement is correct.
A second way is to inquire about returning the product. For example if I buy the BluRay player, and get the "FREE $100", and then return the BluRay player, do I get to keep the "FREE $100"? No, of course not. So its really not "Free" is it? In fact, if you do return the BluRay player, and decline to return the $100 Free Gift card, guess what? They subtract $100 from your return. So you only get $299 back.
In Pixel math, this would mean that you now have actually paid $499.
See how that works?
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If all a person has in their checking account is $300 then none of these promotions will let them buy a PS3. They still need to shell out $400 even if what they are getting is "worth" $600 or $800. Even the gift card doesn't help with that because it's not cash back. It's just another $100 that you have to spend on games or movies ect. It won't buy food, or pay bills.
Now, the fact that anyone would spend their last penny on a game consol is yet another problem.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drseid
I think my viewpoint is very much relevant to the what will transpire. Keep in mind that I have nothing against the PS3, and may buy one myself now that they are $399. I am in no way disputing that every one of the players sold is capable of playing BR movies, and if buyers choose to play Blu-ray movies on them, they can and will.
Dave, you obviously do not know the industry I work in very well. A studio has no interest in player sales, they have a interest in software sales. In this climate(war), the studios are not looking at CE manufacturers game plan, they are looking at how the game plan effects sales of software. Warner is looking at a few things, what titles are selling well, and which side is buying their titles in greater numbers. The only studios interested in Toshiba's game plan are the studios exclusively supporting it.
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That said, the Sony PS2 can play DVDs... How many people count them as standalone DVD players? Anyone who buys one *can* play DVDs on them, but how many actually do? This is not a standalone player in the same way a dedicated BR only player like my BDP-S1 is. That does not mean the PS3 is an "inferior" player (it isn't by any means), but most won't view it as a movie player for their living room system and as such, it won't drive software sales in the long-run.
The PS2 is not a PS3. The PS2 was not built with DVD in mind, the DVD drive was used for loading games, and can play DVD's as a result of the drive. It's DVD playback was horrible, and so was its CD playback. This console was optimized for games, and games only. The PS3 is optimized for several things. It upconverts regular DVD's, plays bluray, fully optimized for SACD playback, has the ability to upsample CD and is very good at it. It is obviously optimized for audio and video, streaming and storying. You can swap out the hard drive for a larger size(something the PS2 cannot do). It is obvious that a different approach was given to the PS3 than the PS2. The PS3 can do everything your BDP-S1 can do and more. Your BDP-S1 plays bluray movies, so does the PS3. The only thing on the level that is different is what the external case looks like. I do not know who told you how the PS3 is viewed, but alot of folks are using them in their hometheaters primarily as a bluray player. On Bluray.com I asked how many people use their PS3 soley as a bluray player. In two days I got 10 pages of answers from users that use the PS3 as their primary bluray player in their hometheaters. It is time to rethink your PS3 perspective as obviously PS3 owners are buying movies as evidenced by its release, and the subsequent over taking of HD DVD in disc sales just two months later.
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Let's be honest here... Attach rates are much lower with game machines like the PS3, and you know this Sir T. If BR (or HD DVD) want to dominate, they have to sell dedicated movie *standalone* players like my Sony BDP-S1. Right now, most of the BR offerings are too expensive for most people to afford, and so they are not buying them. They will, however, once they come down in price. You dislike Toshiba's behavior because they have realized this and are doing it right now -- I on the contrary applaud them for it. BR may not like it, but they are going to have to do the same if they want to succeed long-term. The PS3 will *not* drive any format long-term. This is not a fanboy statement, it is just plain common business sense.
You and nobody else knows the attach rate of PS3 owners. I own the PS3 and I have over 200 bluray movies. The idea of "you have to have a standalone to be legit" is a false concept, and a HD DVD fanboy talking point(no offense but its true). Entertainment center have changed the game, and BR has proven that you do not need to sell standalones to drive software sales. The entertainment center is a new concept brought on by the PS3. You cannot dismiss it because it does not follow some traditional model. It expands that model. We are not sure of the long term impact of the PS3, so to make a statement that the PS3 will not drive any format long term is premature and uninformed. Its old line thinking.
Toshiba behavior does not concern me. I personally think they have a steep uphill battle against BR, I think their premature cost cutting of their players is going to hurt them in the long run, will chase other manufacturers away(it has already happened) and will not ensure long term health for HD DVD. They should have bargained more faithfully with BR, instead of trying to save face. Cutting prices has not helped their sales all that much in that they only have 150k more "standalones" in the field than BR has. What good is a $199 player when you do not have full studio support, and software prices are still over $20? I personally do not think player price is a problem, software prices are. Alot of folks bought $800 DVD players when they first came out.
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Toshiba and HD DVD are behind disc sales today because they still need to sell many more standalone players before they can turn the tide in their favor. I never said *no one* is buying software who owns a PS3... Obviously many are, especially at this relatively early point in the formats' life cycle. The attach rates are still just not the same, and will continue to decrease as early adopters are a lesser percentage of PS3 buyers over time.
---Dave
Dave, you do not know what the true attach rate is. You are listening far to much to the HD DVD PG. Nobody has done a exhastive study on PS3 attach rates. If you listen to the HD DVD PG(and you obviously have) they claim they have a higher attach rate because they add in the PS3 when you talk about attach rates, and take the PS3 out of the equation when you discuss player sales. This is disengenious as it really tells you nothing but spin. Your thought process is way to premature. Since there has never been a entertainment center catagory it is new territory, and nobody knows what influence the PS3 will have going forward. The PS3 has pushed bluray ahead of HD DVD in europe, here in this country, in asia, in Australia and New Zeland. There is no where on this planet that HD DVD is doing better than bluray. As long as the PS3 is outselling HD DVD players, HD DVD will not catch up to bluray. That has been the case in the short history of this war. Any idea the PS3 can be discounted over time, is premature as there is no history of adoption rates or sales or disc sales based on a entertainment center.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
On Bluray.com I asked how many people use their PS3 soley as a bluray player. In two days I got 10 pages of answers from users that use the PS3 as their primary bluray player in their hometheaters. It is time to rethink your PS3 perspective as obviously PS3 owners are buying movies as evidenced by its release, and the subsequent over taking of HD DVD in disc sales just two months later. .
And if you go to www.ps3fanboy.com and ask the same question, I would be willing to bet you would get 10 pages of people saying "we don't want no f*cking movies, we want GAMES for our GAME machine!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
You and nobody else knows the attach rate of PS3 owners. I own the PS3 and I have over 200 bluray movies. The idea of "you have to have a standalone to be legit" is a false concept, and a HD DVD fanboy talking point(no offense but its true). Entertainment center have changed the game, and BR has proven that you do not need to sell standalones to drive software sales. The entertainment center is a new concept brought on by the PS3. You cannot dismiss it because it does not follow some traditional model. It expands that model. We are not sure of the long term impact of the PS3, so to make a statement that the PS3 will not drive any format long term is premature and uninformed. Its old line thinking. .
Clearly you are making a huge pile of FUD right here on this thread. The PS3, in NO WAY "is a new concept". The original XBOX had the same functionality of the PS3 minus the BR 7 years ago. You could link it to a PC, stream video and audio from a media center PC, and playback pictures. The 360 expanded on these capablities a full 13 MONTHS before the PS3 arrived. VOD, Video Streaming, Audio Playback, Ipod playback, and many other "media center" features the PS3 either doesn't have, (except in Australia) or only wishes the features it has were as robust.
Granted the PS3 has integrated BR playback, but that doesn't make it the forerunner in 'entertainment center'. Don't fall all over yourself about the BR playback either. You can add HD-DVD to the 360 (if you choose to).
And attach rates may be more difficult to quantifiy for BR MOVIES, but not gaming software. Unless Sony has no idea how many PS3's its sold and how much gaming software has gone out the door...its not that difficult to figure out attach rates.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
I don't have the time or energy to rehash whether the PS3 should be counted as a standalone player or not, but I won't conceed either way. Personally I think that some sort of ratio needs to be factored into the PS3 as it's SOLE use is NOT movies.
You obviously have the time and energy because you are here rehashing. You cannot just make up a ratio off the top of your head. It really does not matter whether YOU conceed anything here. The bottom line is by defintion you are plain wrong. Bluray players can play CD's, so their sole purpose is not just playing movies either.
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Therefore, its not fair to include the PS3 into "standalone" sales. But, I'm not an industry insider, so it probably doesn't matter either way.
Its not fair to pay off studios when your side is losing in a fair fight, but it happened didn't it? Fairness is irrelevant, the definition of a standalone is simply this
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/standalone
http://www.techterms.com/definition/standalone
http://www.yourdictionary.com/stand-alone
Three defintions and how it is used is not in any of them.
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Incidently BB has a Sony BluRay player on sale for $399, and this weekend they were throwing in a $100 gift card to boot. Plus the free movies. So, it doesn't appear that BluRay is above buying customers either. It's not entirely clear who is footing the bill for the gift card however. It may be a ploy by BB to get consumers to spend more, and not something that BR is endorsing or underwriting.
Heres the link for the BR player:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....4&type=product
You are not making a point here. When the DVD was introduced in 1997, these same offers were apart of its release. This is not a new marketing strategy. This is entirely different from selling your players at a $200 loss, plus giving away movies for free. Have you seen the BDA do this? I think not.
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Sony has alread indicated that the PS3 will not be getting another price cut. So, it appears that there are now players on the market cheaper than the PS3. And as games are becoming more prevelant, I think that Sony's reliance on the PS3 to forward the BR cause will be somewhat muted, as consumers can simply pick up a BR player for less money.
You do not know what is going to happen in the future. You are just spouting speculation and opinion. It was the BDA strategy to get as many bluray players to the market as quickly as they can. They did it through the PS3, and now that traditional player prices have come down, they do not need to use the PS3 as a launching point anymore.
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Remeber the PS3 was to be the cheap alternative to the $1000 BR players that were out but a few short months ago.
Well now you have several players below $500 and the PS3 is still outselling them all. How do you explain that?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Dave, you obviously do not know the industry I work in very well. A studio has no interest in player sales, they have a interest in software sales. In this climate(war), the studios are not looking at CE manufacturers game plan, they are looking at how the game plan effects sales of software. Warner is looking at a few things, what titles are selling well, and which side is buying their titles in greater numbers. The only studios interested in Toshiba's game plan are the studios exclusively supporting it.
The PS2 is not a PS3. The PS2 was not built with DVD in mind, the DVD drive was used for loading games, and can play DVD's as a result of the drive. It's DVD playback was horrible, and so was its CD playback. This console was optimized for games, and games only. The PS3 is optimized for several things. It upconverts regular DVD's, plays bluray, fully optimized for SACD playback, has the ability to upsample CD and is very good at it. It is obviously optimized for audio and video, streaming and storying. You can swap out the hard drive for a larger size(something the PS2 cannot do). It is obvious that a different approach was given to the PS3 than the PS2. The PS3 can do everything your BDP-S1 can do and more. Your BDP-S1 plays bluray movies, so does the PS3. The only thing on the level that is different is what the external case looks like. I do not know who told you how the PS3 is viewed, but alot of folks are using them in their hometheaters primarily as a bluray player. On Bluray.com I asked how many people use their PS3 soley as a bluray player. In two days I got 10 pages of answers from users that use the PS3 as their primary bluray player in their hometheaters. It is time to rethink your PS3 perspective as obviously PS3 owners are buying movies as evidenced by its release, and the subsequent over taking of HD DVD in disc sales just two months later.
You and nobody else knows the attach rate of PS3 owners. I own the PS3 and I have over 200 bluray movies. The idea of "you have to have a standalone to be legit" is a false concept, and a HD DVD fanboy talking point(no offense but its true). Entertainment center have changed the game, and BR has proven that you do not need to sell standalones to drive software sales. The entertainment center is a new concept brought on by the PS3. You cannot dismiss it because it does not follow some traditional model. It expands that model. We are not sure of the long term impact of the PS3, so to make a statement that the PS3 will not drive any format long term is premature and uninformed. Its old line thinking.
Toshiba behavior does not concern me. I personally think they have a steep uphill battle against BR, I think their premature cost cutting of their players is going to hurt them in the long run, will chase other manufacturers away(it has already happened) and will not ensure long term health for HD DVD. They should have bargained more faithfully with BR, instead of trying to save face. Cutting prices has not helped their sales all that much in that they only have 150k more "standalones" in the field than BR has. What good is a $199 player when you do not have full studio support, and software prices are still over $20? I personally do not think player price is a problem, software prices are. Alot of folks bought $800 DVD players when they first came out.
Dave, you do not know what the true attach rate is. You are listening far to much to the HD DVD PG. Nobody has done a exhastive study on PS3 attach rates. If you listen to the HD DVD PG(and you obviously have) they claim they have a higher attach rate because they add in the PS3 when you talk about attach rates, and take the PS3 out of the equation when you discuss player sales. This is disengenious as it really tells you nothing but spin. Your thought process is way to premature. Since there has never been a entertainment center catagory it is new territory, and nobody knows what influence the PS3 will have going forward. The PS3 has pushed bluray ahead of HD DVD in europe, here in this country, in asia, in Australia and New Zeland. There is no where on this planet that HD DVD is doing better than bluray. As long as the PS3 is outselling HD DVD players, HD DVD will not catch up to bluray. That has been the case in the short history of this war. Any idea the PS3 can be discounted over time, is premature as there is no history of adoption rates or sales or disc sales based on a entertainment center.
I am not saying Warner (or anyone else in the industry) cares about player sales in and of themselves. They care about software sales as you mentioned... but in this case the standalone player sales will lead to future software sales. As such, they are interested. The players is a means to an end, but it is an integral part of the supply chain for the studios.
As for "entertainment center" versus "game machine" ... I personally feel that sounds like something coming from Sony's Marketing department. It is true it can perform many functions (as many other computers and game consoles can do), but gaming is its first purpose. That is not to imply you can't use it for other things (and many are), but the average person buying it is buying it for games. The people on bluray.com do not represent the average buyer IMO.
Attach rates are more of a gray area I grant you. It may be early days to make any conclusive statements as you correctly mention, but I don't think I am far from the truth in my statements based on plain old common sense thinking and analysis. Gaming machines or "entertainment centers" are not going to have the same attach rates as dedicated (sole purpose) players, IMO. Again, this is not to demean PS3 owners as I view the PS3 as a superb Blu-ray player (and quite frankly far better than my own). It just is not going to have the same amount of people buying it for Blu-ray movie use, as a dedicated player like my BDP-S1 will (as that is its sole function) or a Toshiba HD DVD player would due to many using it strictly for games. The exact attach rate can't be determined, but attach rate trends can be derived to a degree.
As an FYI, I actually ignore the HD PG's press releases as I consider them biased. I ignore just about anything coming from bluray.com by the same token (even though I confess I am a member), as I would argue most information there is equally biased. Just for the record, I don't go to "hddvd.com" for my information either. ;-)
---Dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
And if you go to www.ps3fanboy.com and ask the same question, I would be willing to bet you would get 10 pages of people saying "we don't want no f*cking movies, we want GAMES for our GAME machine!!"
Why don't you do it rather than speculated what they will say. I did it in the gaming section of bluray.com. Rather than channeling other peoples responses, start a thread and ask the question.
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Clearly you are making a huge pile of FUD right here on this thread. The PS3, in NO WAY "is a new concept". The original XBOX had the same functionality of the PS3 minus the BR 7 years ago.
So the XBOX can play SACD? The original XBOX could upconvert DVD's? The original XBOX could upsample CD's?
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You could link it to a PC, stream video and audio from a media center PC, and playback pictures. The 360 expanded on these capablities a full 13 MONTHS before the PS3 arrived. VOD, Video Streaming, Audio Playback, Ipod playback, and many other "media center" features the PS3 either doesn't have, (except in Australia) or only wishes the features it has were as robust.
You are now admitting that the original XBOX had to be linked to a PC to do what a PS3 does internally. Thanks for making my point. The XBOX360 cannot playback DTHD or Dts MA lossless. It cannot playback SACD. It does not do a good job at upconverting DVD's, and it cannot upsample CD's. And the bottom line is the PS3 CAN support VOD if the service is there. It has all it needs(except the tuner which it could support) to process the video and audio signals.
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Granted the PS3 has integrated BR playback, but that doesn't make it the forerunner in 'entertainment center'. Don't fall all over yourself about the BR playback either. You can add HD-DVD to the 360 (if you choose to).
It is a forerunner. It does several things the XBOX cannot do, or requires the XBOX to be hooked up to an external drive to do.
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And attach rates may be more difficult to quantifiy for BR MOVIES, but not gaming software. Unless Sony has no idea how many PS3's its sold and how much gaming software has gone out the door...its not that difficult to figure out attach rates.
We are not talking about games, we are talking about movies. Stay with the topic. You were the one attempting to apply some arbitrary number as an attachment rate, or percentage of usage. You can do neither with any credibility.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Why don't you do it rather than speculated what they will say. I did it in the gaming section of bluray.com. Rather than channeling other peoples responses, start a thread and ask the question.
The point is, you can ask your questions anywhere you want, and get an answer to support your theories. People that lurk/post on BluRay.com are by definition "movie" people. They MAY play games, but for the most part they are there for the BR MOVIES. So your source already is biased for movies.
Go to www.ps3fanboy.com and you get GAMERS who may or may not watch BR Movies. So although your PS3 is the same, for those 2 sites your audience is different. But I'm sure your aware of that. Because you are citing a source that supports your theory, while ignoring others that dont.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
So the XBOX can play SACD? The original XBOX could upconvert DVD's? The original XBOX could upsample CD's? .
Does it matter? NO. Why? Because those 2 functions are NOT necessary to be considered an "entertainment center". 7 years ago DVD upconverting wasn't even around. SACD isn't required for ANY entertainment center, unless you are trying to cloud the waters to hide your weak base. Could the PS2 do anything that the XBOX could in relation to "media center". NO.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
You are now admitting that the original XBOX had to be linked to a PC to do what a PS3 does internally. Thanks for making my point. The XBOX360 cannot playback DTHD or Dts MA lossless. It cannot playback SACD. It does not do a good job at upconverting DVD's, and it cannot upsample CD's. And the bottom line is the PS3 CAN support VOD if the service is there. It has all it needs(except the tuner which it could support) to process the video and audio signals. .
No, actually I wasn't admitting anything. You somehow came to the conclusion that the PS3 is the FIRST "entertainment/media center". Clearly it wasn't, nor is it the definiative "media center" you have deluded yourself about. Did you happen to have Al "I invented the internet" Gore help you write your post?
And your comments on the 360 are subjective. As a BR shill, and a PS3 owner, I wouldn't expect anything less. You are quite the fanboy for not liking games and all.
BTW, you don't need a PC to do those functions, but you CAN. Same as the PS3, so I don't know why your shooting yourself in the foot for me, but keep it up.
As far as the VOD, thats a great arguement to hitch your horse to. Pack your **** up and move to Australia to enjoy it. That and South Korea are the ONLY markets that have it. 360 has had it since inception. And the best part is, the PS3 can't support it in the US, and there are NO plans to bring it here. (At least announced)
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
It is a forerunner. It does several things the XBOX cannot do, or requires the XBOX to be hooked up to an external drive to do. .
?
It plays SACD, and BR movies. Well, I guess if I wanted those I could get them. The PS3doesn't play HD-DVD, or have VOD, or D/L Movies, TV programs, and other entertainment. So I guess its really not a "media center" either.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
We are not talking about games, we are talking about movies. Stay with the topic. You were the one attempting to apply some arbitrary number as an attachment rate, or percentage of usage. You can do neither with any credibility.
I am with the topic. You are only too eager to spout off figures about how the PS3 is driving the movie market for BR. It may be, maybe not. But if its that hard to quantifiy, then perhaps the PS3 shouldn't be considered a standalone player.
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Originally Posted by drseid
I am not saying Warner (or anyone else in the industry) cares about player sales in and of themselves. They care about software sales as you mentioned... but in this case the standalone player sales will lead to future software sales. As such, they are interested. The players is a means to an end, but it is an integral part of the supply chain for the studios.
Once again Dave, your way of thinking is outdated. If standalones lead the future of sales, then why are they not now? Based on your arguement HD DVD should be ahead of bluray in disc sales, but it is not. By your arguement bluray should have never overtaken HD DVD, but it did. The PS3 is as much a player as your BDP-S1 is.
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As for "entertainment center" versus "game machine" ... I personally feel that sounds like something coming from Sony's Marketing department. It is true it can perform many functions (as many other computers and game consoles can do), but gaming is its first purpose. That is not to imply you can't use it for other things (and many are), but the average person buying it is buying it for games. The people on bluray.com do not represent the average buyer IMO.
No other "gaming" machine can upsample CD's, playback SACD, or upconvert DVD's. Because the PS3 can do so many things well, its purpose is determined by the end user, not by some perception attached to it. I do not play games, so my PS3 is not a gaming machine. In my hometheater its purpose is not to play games, but movies, CD's and SACD's. If it had a singular purpose, why add the other function in the player? According to the designer of the PS3 it was meant and designed as a entertainment center of the hometheater, and that includes gaming, high resolution music and video.
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Attach rates are more of a gray area I grant you. It may be early days to make any conclusive statements as you correctly mention, but I don't think I am far from the truth in my statements based on plain old common sense thinking and analysis. Gaming machines or "entertainment centers" are not going to have the same attach rates as dedicated (sole purpose) players, IMO. Again, this is not to demean PS3 owners as I view the PS3 as a superb Blu-ray player (and quite frankly far better than my own). It just is not going to have the same amount of people buying it for Blu-ray movie use, as a dedicated player like my BDP-S1 will (as that is its sole function) or a Toshiba HD DVD player would due to many using it strictly for games. The exact attach rate can't be determined, but attach rate trends can be derived to a degree.
Dave, you keep making statements you cannot quantify. Entertainment centers have never been apart of the home video landscape, so how can you give it a history that it does not have? How do you know what attach rate the PS2 had? From what I understand the PS2 really helped to drive DVD sales even though it was a terrible DVD player. You cannot derive any attach rate to any degree, you are just making stuff up. Nobody has done a study on attach rates, however Sony has done a survey on what percentage of PS3 are going to purchase movies, and that percentage rate came back at 40%. That still tells you nothing about HOW many movies they will purchase.
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As an FYI, I actually ignore the HD PG's press releases as I consider them biased. By the same token, I ignore just about anything coming from bluray.com by the same token (even though I confess I am a member), as I would argue most information there is equally biased. Just for the record, I don't go to "hddvd.com" for my information either. ;-)
---Dave
For a person that ignores the HD DVD PG press releases, you have argued their talking points word for word. Funny thing is, the stuff I have read in the insider forum has come true word for word. So perhaps I trust the insiders there more than I do the opinion of some folks here. I actually agree with you about the bluray.com bias, but the insiders information has been factually spot on. So how do you claim bias when the information has actually come to pass.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
For a person that ignores the HD DVD PG press releases, you have argued their talking points word for word. Funny thing is, the stuff I have read in the insider forum has come true word for word. So perhaps I trust the insiders there more than I do the opinion of some folks here. I actually agree with you about the bluray.com bias, but the insiders information has been factually spot on. So how do you claim bias when the information has actually come to pass.
Maybe they should hire me as their new spokesperson? ;-)
Seriously though... My way of thinking is far from outdated really. The laws of supply, demand and the supply chain in general have not changed that much over the years. The fact that PS3 sales are driving the software sales lead now does not mean it will drive it in the future. The HD DVD dedicated player sales have hardly had a chance to yield any software sales. Most of those sales will come *next year* as software sales lag hardware sales as a general rule. Make no mistake, the software sales *will* come. The sales you are seeing right now are not indicative of those new HD DVD player sales (nor the increased PS3 sales after the price drop for that matter). It will be *next year* where those end sales will occur for the most part for both camps. *That* is where the real battle lies on the software front. This year it is to sell the hardware to drive those future software sales...
---Dave
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Originally Posted by drseid
That said, the Sony PS2 can play DVDs... How many people count them as standalone DVD players? Anyone who buys one *can* play DVDs on them, but how many actually do? This is not a standalone player in the same way a dedicated BR only player like my BDP-S1 is. That does not mean the PS3 is an "inferior" player (it isn't by any means), but most won't view it as a movie player for their living room system and as such, it won't drive software sales in the long-run.
Let's be honest here... Attach rates are much lower with game machines like the PS3, and you know this Sir T. If BR (or HD DVD) want to dominate, they have to sell dedicated movie *standalone* players like my Sony BDP-S1. Right now, most of the BR offerings are too expensive for most people to afford, and so they are not buying them. They will, however, once they come down in price. You dislike Toshiba's behavior because they have realized this and are doing it right now -- I on the contrary applaud them for it. BR may not like it, but they are going to have to do the same if they want to succeed long-term. The PS3 will *not* drive any format long-term. This is not a fanboy statement, it is just plain common business sense.
A point that you're missing out with trying to draw PS2 v. PS3 comparisons is timing. The PS2 came out in 2000, after the DVD format had already been on the market for 3 years with multiple generations of players already out and the price points already dropping. Yet, that did not stop the PS2 from having a major effect on solidifying the DVD format's market position.
At the time the PS2 came out, the average DVD player was selling for around $250, and the PS2 came in at about $300. For people on the fence, hundreds of thousands of them immediately jumped into the DVD market when they bought their PS2s. They'd been holding out for a lower price point on standalone players, and integrating the DVD drive into their gaming console made the PS2 a compelling purchase. Until about 2002, I'd say about half the people I knew with DVD players were using a PS2 as their primary player. And when I had my apartment in San Francisco, I was also using a PS2 as my primary DVD player (my standalone player was at my then-girlfriend's place). As the standalone player prices declined further, and DVD drives became ubiquitous, the PS2 inevitably becomes less of a market factor since many households now have multiple DVD players. But, that doesn't deny the impact the PS2 had on the DVD market during those crucial growth years between 2000 and about 2004.
The PS3 is a different situation because neither of the high-def disc formats had gained any kind of market traction when the console was introduced. The timing of the Blu-ray and PS3 rollouts did not coincide very well. That's why the PS3 came in at a price point that undercut the standalone players, and that's why the PS3 is right now the driving force behind Blu-ray's significant lead over HD-DVD. After Blu-ray has been on the market for a while, and the standalone prices decline into commodity territory, then the PS3 will become less of a factor as the Blu-ray market grows on its own. But as it is right now, the PS3 is crucial to Blu-ray's fortunes, just as to a lesser degree the PS2 was important to fueling the DVD format's growth.
Take the PS3 away, and you have a market stalemate between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. With the PS3, Blu-ray has a clearcut market advantage that HD-DVD cannot counter without resorting to subsidies (i.e., loss leader hardware, and studio payoffs). At some point, HD-DVD will have to stand or fall on its own merits, and it's very hard to do that when Blu-ray has the upper hand on both the hardware and software sides.
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Originally Posted by Groundbeef
The point is, you can ask your questions anywhere you want, and get an answer to support your theories. People that lurk/post on BluRay.com are by definition "movie" people. They MAY play games, but for the most part they are there for the BR MOVIES. So your source already is biased for movies.
People who go to the gaming half of the forum are just as much gamers as the people on PS3fanboy. They are probably more aware of the functions of their PS3 than most gamers are, but they are just as much gamers as PS3fanboy members are. So your claim of bias is unfounded and inaccurate. Your dodging my question is really telling.
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Go to www.ps3fanboy.com and you get GAMERS who may or may not watch BR Movies. So although your PS3 is the same, for those 2 sites your audience is different. But I'm sure your aware of that. Because you are citing a source that supports your theory, while ignoring others that dont.
There is no proof that gamers do not watch movies. If you can find that proof, please post a link here for all to see. You are doing exactly the same thing as you are accusing me of doing. While I understand there are going to be some people who will not use their PS3 as a bluray player, nobody knows what that percentage is. I know this clearly, but you are attempting to box this thing up in a way that skews things unnecessarily. I am citing this source because it is clear this source understands exactly what the PS3 can do. Going to gamer sites to talk about movies is apples and oranges. I go to where they talk about games AND movies, since the PS3 does both. That is apples to apples.
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Does it matter? NO. Why? Because those 2 functions are NOT necessary to be considered an "entertainment center". 7 years ago DVD upconverting wasn't even around. SACD isn't required for ANY entertainment center, unless you are trying to cloud the waters to hide your weak base. Could the PS2 do anything that the XBOX could in relation to "media center". NO.
Several years ago there was no classification called entertainment center. That is because nothing could do all that I mention internally. You obviously do not know what a entertainment center is do you? A entertainment center HAS to be able to do all of what I mentioned, or it would not be the centerpiece of your hometheater. You do not decide what is required in a entertainment center until you build one. Having a high resolution audio device is a component of a entertainment device. Without it, it would be incomplete as a entertainment center. SACD is the only high resolution music format still getting support. So there is nothing to cloud the water here. Could the XBOX do everthing the PS3 does in relation to a "media"center. NO!
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No, actually I wasn't admitting anything. You somehow came to the conclusion that the PS3 is the FIRST "entertainment/media center". Clearly it wasn't, nor is it the definiative "media center" you have deluded yourself about. Did you happen to have Al "I invented the internet" Gore help you write your post?
The PS3 is the first self contained entertainment center. That is something that cannot be said about the XBOX, or the XBOX360. Even with the HD DVD add on, can the XBOX360 do lossless audio? Nope. The fact that it requires a add eliminates it as a true entertainment center. The XBOX may have been able to do all that you listed, but it was not optimized to do anything but play games well. That cannot be said for the PS3.
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And your comments on the 360 are subjective. As a BR shill, and a PS3 owner, I wouldn't expect anything less. You are quite the fanboy for not liking games and all.
How does not liking games make me a fanboy. This is a stupid comment. So if I am a BR shill, can you tell me how I benefit directly from the sale of anything BR? Shills get paid for what they do right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shill
It is plain to me that you do not know the definition of what a shill is. Perhaps you should not use words you do not know the meaning of.
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BTW, you don't need a PC to do those functions, but you CAN. Same as the PS3, so I don't know why your shooting yourself in the foot for me, but keep it up.
The PS3 does not need a PC to do any of the things I listed, so it is not the same as the PS3. The XBOX360 does not upconvert DVD's, it just progressively scans them. The XBOX360 cannot do any high resolution audio internally, and it cannot playback HD movies internally either. The XBOX360 can only play CD back at redbook level, the PS3 can upconvert the audio to 176.4khz. The XBOX360 cannot even do DTHD or Dts MA lossless even with the external HD drive installed. So it is a crippled HD player at best. It sole function is a gaming machine, because that is all it is optimized internally for.
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As far as the VOD, thats a great arguement to hitch your horse to. Pack your **** up and move to Australia to enjoy it. That and South Korea are the ONLY markets that have it. 360 has had it since inception. And the best part is, the PS3 can't support it in the US, and there are NO plans to bring it here. (At least announced)
So you are saying it is not possible to design a ATSC tuner to integrate with the PS3 via USB? If it can be done with the XBOX360, it can be done with the PS3. That you cannot deny. If you can design a tuner to work with the PS3 for South Korea and Australia, a simular tuner can be designed for this market as well.
?
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It plays SACD, and BR movies. Well, I guess if I wanted those I could get them. The PS3doesn't play HD-DVD, or have VOD, or D/L Movies, TV programs, and other entertainment. So I guess its really not a "media center" either.
Why would the PS3 want to play HD DVD? another stupid statement that is meaningless. If VOD or D/L were available, the PS3 could handle it. It can do anything the XBOX360 does, and more. VOD is nothing. More money is made on disc based media than D/L or VOD. Not having that is not a big deal, even though the hardware could easily support it. However having that, but not being able to fully support HD DVD audio, or not having the ability to support any high resolution audio, or upconverting of video makes it not a media center as well.
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I am with the topic. You are only too eager to spout off figures about how the PS3 is driving the movie market for BR. It may be, maybe not. But if its that hard to quantifiy, then perhaps the PS3 shouldn't be considered a standalone player.
Beef, do not going back to being a idiot again. It is clear that the PS3 is currently driving bluray sales, as 400k base could not be outselling a 550k base 2 to 1. I gave you three defintion of what a standalone is. The PS3 fits it to a tee, so you cannot redefine what standalone means just because you do not understand the meaning of the word.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
You obviously have the time and energy because you are here rehashing. You cannot just make up a ratio off the top of your head. It really does not matter whether YOU conceed anything here. The bottom line is by defintion you are plain wrong. Bluray players can play CD's, so their sole purpose is not just playing movies either.
I didn't make up a ratio. I was just suggesting that it would be NICE if there was a ratio to assign to the PS3. % that watch movies, vs % that dont. To more accuratly reflect the reality that not 100% of PS3 owners use the machine to watch BR movies. Don't be so defensive.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
You are not making a point here. When the DVD was introduced in 1997, these same offers were apart of its release. This is not a new marketing strategy. This is entirely different from selling your players at a $200 loss, plus giving away movies for free. Have you seen the BDA do this? I think not. ?
Have you forgotten about the PS3 release? They were selling for $300 BELOW COST, and still are below cost, but not nearly as much. AND they give away 5-10 BR movies. Care to rebut that one?
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
You do not know what is going to happen in the future. You are just spouting speculation and opinion. It was the BDA strategy to get as many bluray players to the market as quickly as they can. They did it through the PS3, and now that traditional player prices have come down, they do not need to use the PS3 as a launching point anymore. ?
Neither do you have a crystal ball.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Well now you have several players below $500 and the PS3 is still outselling them all. How do you explain that?
Because Sony is now selling more games for the PS3? It IS a game machine you know.
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I don't know 'bout that Dave...
Not to pile on, but I think I have to go with the boys on this one. I think Wooch's point about timing is, well, timely.
Another thing to consider is the economy of scale deal. Gaming is where the money is at right now and, of course, manufacturers realize this. I suspect their concept is to prove to the masses including the techno-litterati that there is a one-unit solution. The kids are gonna buy a gaming system anyway and if you can convince home theater/audio enthusiasts that the thing is for real you've got a winner.
To extrapolate on this, have you ever considered sending an XBOX or a PS3 to the Middle East or even Cuba? Think again, the powers-that-be won't allow it cause at the heart of things is a microprocessor so advanced that it replicates many aspects of a missile guidance system. I don't think we've ever before seen this level of technology put into what is rightfully reported to be an affordable "media center".
Show me a box capable of playing one of the HiDef formats, upscaling standard video, playing all the new audio codecs and passing along a multi-channel SACD stream and I'll show you a $1200.00 standalone that doesn't play games and has very little appeal for JoeSixPack. Boutique house are going to have a hard time replicating something with all these features and many of the advantages of "better playback" are disappearing.
I myself own a 360 and only have two games (with a grand total of maybe three hours of playing time logged). Am I an exception to the rule? Probably but that does not discount the possibility that a lot of younger enthusiasts may chose the same road. I'd rather have a system that did the deal, costs less and own a bazillion units of software than have a showpiece and have seven discs. And I may not be alone...
Scary, eh.
Just IMHO, but I think you have to consider these new techno-wunder machinations as "standalones' if only because they can and do perform the functions of one.
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Originally Posted by drseid
Maybe they should hire me as their new spokesperson? ;-)
LOL, you would be a great asset to their team.
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Seriously though... My way of thinking is far from outdated really. The laws of supply, demand and the supply chain in general have not changed that much over the years. The fact that PS3 sales are driving the software sales lead now does not mean it will drive it in the future. The HD DVD dedicated player sales have hardly had a chance to yield any software sales. Most of those sales will come *next year* as software sales lag hardware sales as a general rule. Make no mistake, the software sales *will* come. The sales you are seeing right now are not indicative of those new HD DVD player sales (nor the increased PS3 sales after the price drop for that matter). It will be *next year* where those end sales will occur for the most part for both camps. *That* is where the real battle lies on the software front. This year it is to sell the hardware to drive those future software sales---Dave
It was never the plan of Sony's that the PS3 drive sales of BR disc forever. The plan was to get as many BR players released as they can in a short period of time. I do not think that anyone could foresee that alot of non gamers bought them, and plan on keeping it as the center piece of their hometheaters. Once again, time is not on HD DVD side. Warner has stated mulitple times that they are looking at 4th quarter sales very carefully. So far it is not looking very good for HD DVD as the last three weeks of sales puts bluray at more than 2:1 over HD DVD.
Toshiba has had 18 months worth of hardware sales to drive software sales. In spite of the fact they have A) lower player prices B) selling more traditional players C) and about 7 months lead on bluray they have not been able to capitalize on any of these facts. The other fly in the ointment is the products the studio are offering to the format. Universal has only one major titles in the 4th quarter, and Paramount only 2. Neither can release some really big money makers exclusively to the format. Neither have had major theatrical success in the last couple of years. Their catalog titles are selling very poorly, and neither have alot they can release next year aside from day and date new stuff, so they are going to have to produce some real hits to keep HD DVD propped up. Hardware sales do not mean alot if you cannot support it with quality software releases, and that has been a major achillies heel for the HD DVD format. Bluray by sheer numbers has made if so difficult for Toshiba to catch up, that nobody in this industry thinks its possible. According to the last sales figures I have seen, bluray has 2.7 million players sold in the US(thats counting the PS3) and HD DVD has 750k. Toshiba has had little presence everywhere else in the world. This battle is worldwide, and at this point, there is no way that Toshiba can catch up unless the PS3(and every other player) suddenly stops selling. I have seen no evidence of that.
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Originally Posted by Groundbeef
I didn't make up a ratio. I was just suggesting that it would be NICE if there was a ratio to assign to the PS3. % that watch movies, vs % that dont. To more accuratly reflect the reality that not 100% of PS3 owners use the machine to watch BR movies. Don't be so defensive.
I do not think you know if I am being defensive or just plain factual. I am sure to you it would be nice if there is a ratio, that way you could just box up and package your arguement without critical thinking. Sorry, it does not work that way. We do not know what the percentage of PS3 being used as dedicated bluray players, and this type of argument is irrelevant at best. The bottom line is the drive is internal, and usage becomes what the end user wants it, whether they use it for games only, or do not play a single game on it.
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Have you forgotten about the PS3 release? They were selling for $300 BELOW COST, and still are below cost, but not nearly as much. AND they give away 5-10 BR movies. Care to rebut that one?
Sure, it is no difference in selling the HD DVD A1 for two hundred dollars below cost and giving away five movies at inception. Its the same thing as selling a A2 for $99 dollars with two free movies effectively making the player almost free. Its the same thing as selling a A2 for $299 and giving away 10 free movies. Sony can sell the PS3 at a loss, and make up the money on games and movies. Toshiba does not own a studio, nor do can their player play games. There is a difference here.
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Neither do you have a crystal ball.
Do not need one, the company I work for is part of the BDA, and they know what the BDA mission is.
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Because Sony is now selling more games for the PS3? It IS a game machine you know.
Your lack surity in answering this question shows that you do not really know. You are free to call it whatever suits you, but its official nomenclature is a Digital Entertainment center. That is what it is called in the instructional manual, and that is how it is marketed by Sony. Do you see them including a free game with it? Nope, it includes free movies.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
I do not think you know if I am being defensive or just plain factual. I am sure to you it would be nice if there is a ratio, that way you could just box up and package your arguement without critical thinking. Sorry, it does not work that way. We do not know what the percentage of PS3 being used as dedicated bluray players, and this type of argument is irrelevant at best. The bottom line is the drive is internal, and usage becomes what the end user wants it, whether they use it for games only, or do not play a single game on it. .
Thats the point. It would be nice to know the ratio. Then you couldn't continually flog that every PS3 owner is a BR movie lover. And that every PS3 translates directly into BR sales.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Sure, it is no difference in selling the HD DVD A1 for two hundred dollars below cost and giving away five movies at inception. Its the same thing as selling a A2 for $99 dollars with two free movies effectively making the player almost free. Its the same thing as selling a A2 for $299 and giving away 10 free movies. Sony can sell the PS3 at a loss, and make up the money on games and movies. Toshiba does not own a studio, nor do can their player play games. There is a difference here.
.
Right, so when Toshiba sells at a loss, and gives away movies its a mortal retail sin, but when Sony does the same thing, its ok. Sure, I understand. Sort of a kind of "Don't do what I do" kinda mentality for BR. Thanks for clearing that up for all of us.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Do not need one, the company I work for is part of the BDA, and they know what the BDA mission is. .
Right, the whole "industry insider" scoop. And TOTALLY unbiased.
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Your lack surity in answering this question shows that you do not really know. You are free to call it whatever suits you, but its official nomenclature is a Digital Entertainment center. That is what it is called in the instructional manual, and that is how it is marketed by Sony. Do you see them including a free game with it? Nope, it includes free movies.
Oh I love it when your wrong. Again. Here's two links for your viewing pleasure. Actually my viewing pleasure and everyone else that wants to see you eat crow.
Tell me is it yummy? I've schooled you before on GAME machines, and once again you troll in waters you are clearly out of step with.
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/826/826128p1.html
http://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-3-.../dp/B000TVT8PI
I thought I'd throw in the first link for our Japanese pals. Since you seem so stuck on what other countries offer, but not for US consumption on the PS3, enjoy it.
The second one is available right here in the good old USA.
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