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Originally Posted by ldgibson76
So if it's nothing more than fun, then act like it's exactly that.
You do not know me well enough to know I am not, right? I do not have to do as you do, I do as I do to make this fun. No one size fits all.
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To respond with the heat/fire; water/shower analogies was in a word, unnecessary.
You response can also be looked at as unnecessary, right? This is a matter of perspective.
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I work in the industry. And I'm sure I hear and read about the subject as much as you do.
I am not certain you can be sure of this.
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I speak with Manufacturer reps from Toshiba, Samsung, Marantz, Denon, Optoma, Epson, JVC, Mitsubishi, Stewart, Planar, Key Digital, Panasonic, Pioneer, etc,.....distributors and R&D people constantly. So I believe I have an intimate knowledge of the industry.
If you have such an intimate knowledge, how can you possibly advance the theory that HD DVD PQ is always better than bluray?. A person with intimate knowledge of this subject would know this is not true at all. Especially if they claim they hear and read about the subject as much as I do.
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Just because someone has a different perspective doesn't make them wrong.
Well when they make definative statements that are not supported by facts, then they are wrong. Would you not agree?
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And just because a website makes a prediction or states an opinion or states a claim, does not make it gospel.
Who said anyone made a prediction? I just stated facts, no predictions.
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So get a grip, it's not that critical. Opinions vary!
By the way, for every factoid you or anyone else submits onto this site, anyone can find a fact that can counter the said entry and be just as accurate and credible.
Have a good evening!
I am going to throw this back at ya. You get a grip. I am well aware that opinion vary. But when a person takes an opinion and tries to present it as fact, then it is not an opinion any more. If you have a factoid that you would like to submit, it is more than welcome. I prefer that to an opinion any day.
Have a good day!
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Originally Posted by ldgibson76
So if it's nothing more than fun, then act like it's exactly that. To respond with the heat/fire; water/shower analogies was in a word, unnecessary. I work in the industry. And I'm sure I hear and read about the subject as much as you do. I speak with Manufacturer reps from Toshiba, Samsung, Marantz, Denon, Optoma, Epson, JVC, Mitsubishi, Stewart, Planar, Key Digital, Panasonic, Pioneer, etc,.....distributors and R&D people constantly. So I believe I have an intimate knowledge of the industry. Just because someone has a different perspective doesn't make them wrong. And just because a website makes a prediction or states an opinion or states a claim, does not make it gospel. So get a grip, it's not that critical. Opinions vary!
By the way, for every factoid you or anyone else submits onto this site, anyone can find a fact that can counter the said entry and be just as accurate and credible.
Have a good evening!
I have said this before and I'll say it again, sometimes it's not about who is right and who is wrong, but rather who is more right. Debating back and forth at this point over something that is so inconclusive still is a waste of time. I am glad that you are a civil person and can see that despite your insider knowledge you still respect the opinions, thoughts, and feelings of others, unlike some.
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Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
I am glad that you are a civil person and can see that despite your insider knowledge you still respect the opinions, thoughts, and feelings of others, unlike some.
"Unlike some"........I really hope you are including yourself in the group of disrespectful members you are refering to.
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Originally Posted by nightflier
Is that really true? No it's not - not by any measure.
You are quite wrong on this. Back then the internet was an informational source, and not so much a source of commerce. The B&M advertised like crazy on the internet to get folks in their stores. That is a undisputeable fact.
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Of course I have an argument. Thanks for agreeing.
We are not referring to VHS are we? So you do not have an arguement, so no need for the thanks.
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I'm not saying those factors were not around back then, but they had far less market penetration. The internet today accounts for far more sales than it did then. It's quite simple math really.
And back then the B&M accounted for the most sales, and used online advertising to get folks in their stores. You are not seeing a whole new world as you describe it, we were seeing a shift in commerce from B&M to online. Please do not continually overstate your point, it is becoming tiring.
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This is just your interpretation. Apparently the execs at Sony don't even agree with you. DVD's competition with DIVx was nothing like the competition between BR & HDDVD. So yes, this current format war makes the comparison with DVD very weak indeed.
Springer stated that HD DVD/BR are in a stalemate. And in the next sentence he mentions the Paramount defection. You need to learn to read things in context, and not snatch out points(out of contexted) to support your opinion. It is a fact that BR is outselling HD DVD in all areas of the world in both hardware and software, so there is no stalemate there at all.
You do not know your history at all. The competition between DIVX and DVD was just as fierce as this current one. The only difference is that it did not last quite as long because nobody was paying anyone else to support their format back then. The customer decided which won.
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Well, not if you listen to the MPAA and RIAA. Yes, there are articles that say that piracy has had little impact, perhaps even boosting sales, but there is no way to know for sure because piracy isn't measured. There are no Nielsen's or NDP ratings for how much video is not purchased because of piracy. And since movie piracy via the internet is far more prevalent today than it was in 1997, one can't make the argument that the adoption rate of BR/HDDVD is or is not being impacted more than DVD was. Piracy is an unknown that makes the comparison between the formats murky.
I have given three different surveys as evidence that you do not know what you are talking about. The word is still out on the effect of piracy and sales of any disc based media whether music or video. One thing that is for certain, there is no evidence that piracy has negatively effected sales at all, survey after survey has proven the exact opposite.
The MPAA and RIAA have chosen to ignore the evidence presented to them, and chosen to take a course to control the spread of the content from the parties they represent. When you analyze their argument up close, it does not square with the results of survey after survey. The bottom line is they want to control how you use your media even after you buy it.
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When people rent, it's pretty much a try-before-you-buy option for them. If the movie is very entertaining people will buy it too, but movies that don't measure up won't have the same sales figures. So the real question is how much have rentals affected the sale of DVDs and also the sale of HDDVD/BR? Another factor that sales figures really don't account for. Sales figures only give us so much information.
We have moved from the rental model to the purchasing model. Far more DVD's are sold than rented. People look to theatrical reviews, and later media reviews as a vehicle to make a decision to purchase. This is why websites like HTF, hidefidigest, DVDfile, and the digitalbits have grown so popular. People who rent buy alot less, people you buy rent alot less. Once again, a studio executive is not looking to see how one thing effects another, they are going to look at the bottom line. That would be sales figures. Only you are interested in muddying the water with stuff other than the bottom line.
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Amazon was selling far more books than movies back then. Today, the opposite is true. This is a perfect example proving my point that the Internet has had a substantial impact on movie sales so that the comparison with 1997 is weak.
Amazon was selling far more VHS tapes than books in 1998. The internet has had no more impact than the brick and motar did before online commerce took over. The overall market for purchasing media has not substantially grown, it has shifted. Once the B&M dominated, and then they were replaced by online sellers. B&M made hundreds of millions of dollars selling software, and now online sellers are. Once again, overstating your point.
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So? I never said they were not around. But if you look at sales figures, you'll also see quite obviously that people are buying a whole lot more movies through these sites now than they did then. You're only proving my point that the Internet invalidates your comparison between DVD and BR/HDDVD.
Sorry, but you are completely out of historical contexted here. The websites were once pointing to the B&M as the source for buying, and then they shifted towards online retailers because that was who was paying for advertising space. A shift in commerce does not invalid any comparison. What would invalid my comparison would be if there was no way to track that shift, and sorry but the same sales reporting companies that are here now, were here then.
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And that is significant to the comparison, or do you not see that?
No. A shift is not a fundemental change in the infrastructure as you have eluded to earlier. Its just a shift.
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Blockbuster was here back then, and now. - they were not online, were they?
No but Reel.com was.
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Netflix, started back in 1998 and still here. - they were just starting out. Their current business has mushroomed now, hasn't it?
Yes at the expense of large B&M and mom and pop rental stores. Once again, a shift in commerce, not an explosion of the market as a result of.
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Amazon, Started in 1994, and still here today. - See above.
See above as well
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Audioreview, HTF, Audioholics, Widescreen review, DVDfile, The digitalbits, all around back then, still here today. - Yes, and if you look at website traffic, you'll also notice how much more popualr those sites are now than they were in 1997.
Until you know what their traffic was back then as opposed to now, you cannot make that statement. One could argue that with far fewer online websites like them back then, there was far MORE traffic than now. HTF does not have nearly the activity now they had back then, because they did not have other A/V websites to compete with. DVDfile and the bits probably had more traffic then as well because there were not as many review websites then as now. With actual traffic figures, you cannot make this statement.
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Online advertising, was there back then, and here today. - Far more pervasive today and also much more sophisticated using back-end technologies that were not even developed then.
I disagree. It has been the same. There is no evidence that back end technology has had any impact of sales online.
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Online promotions tied to reviews was there back then and here today. - See my last comment.
Sorry, but no difference. Try again.
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Purchasing online was around back then, and here today. - Never said otherwise, but look at sales figures: exponential growth.
Exponential growth for online, exponential decline for B&M. A shift is not explosive new growth. It is just a shift. If you look at the sales of VHS in its heyday, it was making as much money as DVD did at its peak. For a person arguing so forcefully, you have a perspective that is very different from reality.
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Well the most obvious is that more people have broadband now than they did then. Also, websites are programmed in ways that target and conform to user preferences and cross-linking-licensing-advertising is far more sophisticated and pervasive today than it was then. This makes information, especially sales-driven information much faster to get to intended audiences. Server hardware and software also makes the Internet faster and more commercially responsive, even if it may seem from your perspective that the Internet has slowed down (and actually even on your desktop, it hasn't).
There is no evidence that any of this has actually caused the market to grow differently than it did back then. B&M used all of this kind of technology(as much as they had then) to steer consumer into their stores, just like online services do to steer traffic to their website. A faster internet has not led to more sales, it has lead to more convience. Information may get here faster, but that does not mean folks respond faster or spend more.
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One very simple example from Amazon is the inclusion of the "would-you-like-fries-with-that" suggestive sales technologies that the site has added that tell you what you might also like to purchase. Amazon has done extensive research into this and found that this is a substantial source of additional sales. That technology was not half as sophisticated in 1997.
Amazon got this practice from B&M stores. Just like they do now, B&M salespeople have been instructed to push certain things with a purchase for as far back as I know. This practice was not invented by Amazon, or any other online intity. Drive through fast food has been doing this as well.
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Finally, searches are far more sophisticated today using code that is more geared towards sales than you actually finding the relevant information. When you type a search term in Google today, do you know how much is being tracked about that search and subsequent clicks as a result of that search? Well, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that this is far more complex than it was in 1997.
There is no evidence that this has increased sales
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So if you can't see this, and I doubt this is an area you have much interest in anyhow, why don't you "shut the hell up and go about your business." You may know a thing or two about movie sales figures and have some insider secrets, but don't try to lecture me about the Internet and the underlying technologies. That's what I do on a daily basis.
Oh, so now I understand your push towards the internet. It is bias driven, not reality driven. Just because you work with the internet, you think everyone shares your enthusiasm. Well, they don't. So now I know why you are so gung ho about the importance of the internet in all things. It does not matter that you do this for a living, you are overselling its importance by a long shot. You can never tell me to shut up and go about my business and expect me to do it. You will be very disappointed.
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Well here's a perfect example of how piracy has a major impact on the dissemination of information about new movies. The number of popular movies that are bootlegged and distributed over the internet well before even the reviewers get their hands on them is far greater than it was in 1997. Oh, and no they are not HD quality at that point either, but the plot lines, character development, and conclusions are known to the hacker community well before they are to the public.
No purchaser of movies is going to rely on a download to informed themselves on the quality of the DVD or HD on disc media. It no true gauge concerning quality. As far as the plot lines, character development, theatrical reviews have that tied up before a bootlegged video is even released.
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You don't travel in those circles, so you don't know about this. Heck, you would rather believe this doesn't even exist, I'm guessing. Well, sorry to drive another truck through the hole in your argument again - it's just that you don't want to consider anything that doesn't agree with it. Just ask yourself how many people saw 300 before it was released? Do you really think that your tiny circle of privileged reviewers were the only ones? 'Come on, this is a movie that was at the top of the hacker lists everywhere. Now the next question is how much did that affect sales? You'll probably say something like hardly at all, right? Well how would you know? After all, you are so far removed from that crowd... Well I'm not. I may not be pirating movies (no real desire to), but I do read what's online - and it's not what you're reading.
Well, alot of folks saw 300 in the theaters. Do your really believe the masses went online for a bootlegged view before seeing it in theaters? Do you really believe that the majority of purchaser of this movie learned about it from bootlegs on the net? I do not think so.
Do you think you are the only person that can read something online. There have been countless surveys and studies that DO NOT support your point. Most people are not getting their exposure to movies from bootlegs, and if they are, I am sure that since you work in this business, finding actual data to support this will not be a problem for you. I will be waiting for this data.
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Then why do they keep making them? That's like saying there is no evidence that advertising works. Are you really going to go out on that limb?
Previews give the title exposure, but there is no evidence that this exposure sells tickets. Alot of movies are previewed, and bomb at the box office.
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How the hell did you get that from what I wrote? I was there, and probably a lot more active than you were. And don't give me any more of your stupid crap about how I wasn't on AR back then. I was very much here, I just didn't have a tremendous interest in HiFi back then. Hell, I've been reading stuff online before you even had a computer, so don't try and one-up that one. I've been reading posts online when the whole Internet was text-only and it had just been made available to my school. Don't tread where you don't have an advantage, lil't, you'll get squashed.
I have absolutely no fear of being squashed by you. Bored yes, but not squashed. I do not believe that you lurked here at all. Back then there was about 30 folks that populated this website on a regular basis. You were not one of them. As far as lurking but no joining, how convient this is. So now you make a statement, and do not have to prove it.
You do not know when I got my first computer do you? Stupid statement.
The rest of this is a hunk of bullcrap.
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You're proving my point.
I've proved my point. You have to prove your own. So far you are a miserable failure.
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Oh, don't even go there. You're arguing from the gut, now, and you know it. If this is the crux of your argument, show me some sales figures that B&M sales dropped off at the same rate as online sales grew. I seriously doubt you'll find them. I'd wager that online sales grew much faster for the simple reason that it's a lot easier. Don't agree? Then show me the numbers.
Now this is rich. Here is a person who has stated that he does not need sales figures or statistic to make his point. Now he is demanding someone provide sales figures to validate their point. Now sales figures are important. If this is the case, I have pointed out all kinds of sales figures and trends to support every comment I have made, he has not. So every point you have made in the other threads is blown out of the water, because now sales figures are important, and required to make a point. Thank you very much for this validation. Now if you do not have any sales figures to support your point, then your arguement is invalid.
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Well, show me some sales figures. If I'm wrong about this, I'll cop to it. I don't have a problem doing that, unlike you.
I have pointed out plenty of sales figures and trends. You have rejected them all as "not the entire picture". So why ask for them now. I have already proved you wrong using sales figures, but you will not cop to it. So what makes me think you will now. Your arguments are suffering from a major case of schetzophrenia
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Yeah, real mature. I was here. What do I need to do to prove this? I don't remember much. I remember that the forum was called TechTalk or something like that. I vaguely remember someone named Dr. T, I guess that was you (figures)? Some other names that come to mind: Flying Dutchman, Rex, come guy named Vic. I can't remember much else. It's been a long time. Now stop trying to be such a pr*ck and stay on point. You're starting to sound like a child again.
Wow, selective memory. You can remember what the net was like back in 1998, but cannot remember this place and who was here. I was never named Dr. T. I have always been Sir Terrence. And the reality is, you were not around then, and you know good and damn well you weren't. You have really earned the name nighliar. I have never seen a person lie just to save his pride like you have.
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Hey, I'm not trying to get into it with Wooch. At least he doesn't litter his posts with insults and childish remarks.
Well you do.
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I guess he must be the mature one on your team - do you pick up his laundry, too?
And you were speaking about insults nighliar?
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I haven't always agreed with Wooch, but I respect his input. I just can't figure out for the life of me why he would hang out with you. It's kind of a mystery really, and apparently others here are wondering the same thing. Do you have something unpleasant on him? Wonder what that's all about.
Maybe that is none of your business. Has this ever occured to you? You and Pervian have the distinction of being two of the smartest dumb people. Do you wipe his butt or something? I wonder what this is all about.
Wooch can handle himself, and you sure do seem scared as hell to debate with him. He puts the fear of God in ya huh?
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Originally Posted by L.J.
"Unlike some"........I really hope you are including yourself in the group of disrespectful members you are refering to.
Of course he didn't. He is perfect, knows everything, and has created 183 posts(or 183 chances of spreading nonesense)
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Originally Posted by L.J.
"Unlike some"........I really hope you are including yourself in the group of disrespectful members you are refering to.
Interesting how when I say "unlike some" you immediately go on the defensive, despite the fact that I never singled out anyone, but you singled yourself out, which I guess by doing so you are admitting that you are one of the people that I am referring to and I could agree more. Sir T also took a defensive standpoint as well, so I guess you both feel that way.
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Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
Interesting how when I say "unlike some" you immediately go on the defensive, despite the fact that I never singled out anyone, but you singled yourself out, which I guess by doing so you are admitting that you are one of the people that I am referring to and I could agree more. Sir T also took a defensive standpoint as well, so I guess you both feel that way.
Sorry perv, we knew who you meant. You sort of gave it away when you responded to a post by somebody else that was directed to myself. Nobody here rolled out of the wagon, and into your backyard yesterday. Who are you trying to fool?
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[QUOTE=Sir Terrence the Terrible]
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Originally Posted by ldgibson76
Ok STT.
First, the PS3 does not cost $600. The 40GB version costs $399, and the 80GB $499. There is no evidence that what you say is true concerning disc sales and the PS3. There are plenty of people just like me who wanted the most advanced and upgradeable bluray player out there, and the PS3 fit the bill. I do not play games at all, but it plays SACD, and that was the thing that pushed me over to it. Many owners of the PS3 do not play games, but wanted the cheapest way into bluray.
Sorry, but the standalone arguement no longer stands. The PS3 has completely changed the old model and has flipped it on its head. Since it has a internal bluray drive just like any standalone, it cannot be excluded. So the standalone arguement is a red herring uncooked. Every since the PS3 has been released, this standalone argument has cropped up. Unfortunately it has not helped software sales, and neither has the Paramount defection at this point. Worldwide, Toshiba is getting its clock wiped in disc sales as a result of the PS3. The only competitive market, is in America. Everywhere else, its no contest.
STT, do actually read what you submit before you submit it to the forum?! Man, you have loss all credibility with a statement like the one you made above. "Many owners of the PS3 do not play games, but wanted the cheapest way into bluray." That is without a doubt, an opinion, not a smart opinion, but never the less, an opinion . You noticed, no one submitted a reply agreeing to that assumption! Wanna know why?!!!! Cause you're wrong!
The main reason why consumers purchased the PS3 was because of the gaming benefits, i.e., resolution, graphics, Madden, etc,.....Blu ray was the added bonus! People would have purchase the PS3 regardless of Blu ray capabilities. Why? Because it's all about the gaming! Blu ray playback was an after-thought for the average PS3 buyer. Once it became apparent that the games would not be readily available at the inception, that's when blu ray purchases took off. Yes, I agree that PS3 was the cheapest way to obtain bluray playback, but this may be a shot in the dark, but I'm sure that if the average consumer had their choice between a stand-alone player and the PS3 and the stand alone player was priced, at let's say $399.00 initially, PS3 may have acquired strong numbers, but not the totals it currently has. And for the most part, during the inception of Blu ray and HD DVD, the stand-alone Blu ray player was $1000! The average Blu ray customer was forced to purchase the PS3. And that was hard to swallow ($600.00) in it's own right. Have you ever heard a PS3 while in operation?! It's loud as hell! Cooling fans blowing for days! For the Video and audio purist, that's usually unacceptable. The PS3 is not the best solution for movie playback. That's not my opinion, that's a consensus. All I'm trying to say is if the Bluray players had been introduced at a more reasonable price point, your stand on Blu ray would have more merit.
Now regarding the remark you made about the cost to produce a HD DVD player..."$300.00" and selling the A2 for $99.00 or 199.00 is a big loss for Toshiba.....You're right STT, I don't know you, but with that logic, you do not under stand the Japanese MO when it comes to market penetration! It's a method that was established back in the late eighties with Toyota/Lexus. When Lexus introduced the LS400 at a starting price of $38,500.00, a full size import luxury car with an multivalve 8 cylinder, it turn the luxury automotive world upside down. Why, because Mercedes Benz and BMW, the leaders in that division at that time knew that after disecting the LS400, realized that that car should be 50K all day. At that time, a 6 cylinder E class was 50K and the 5 Series was well over 45K. Now, after Lexus took over the market, they priced the car appropriately, by then it was too late. No matter what BMW and Mercedes did, the damage was done. Name recognition, quality, customer service became the epitome of Lexus. Even today, luxury car manufacturers are still playing catch-up ball! Moral of the story, Toshiba knows exactly what they are doing. A lot of so-called authorities in the industry predicted that the HD DVD camp would close down shop a year ago, wouldn't last 6 months. Now you have the Sony CEO coming out publicly and stating that after all the claims of Blu Ray victory, "It's a stalemate!" No where in that statement did he specify who he was trying to pacify!
Create a perception, and 9 times out of 10, it becomes a reality. But the one time that it doesn't, you know what they say about spitting into the wind?!!! There's always a chance it will fly back into your face! Didn't mean to give you a lesson in Japanese marketing, but it is now the standard of penetration and domination in today's consumer market!
Last but surely not least, let's talk about the people who visit my design center and view HD DVD images and Blu ray images side by side on 80" x 45" and larger screens. STT, we have a healthy collection of Bluray and HD DVD movies. We make sure that if a movie is out in both Blu ray and HD DVD we have them so a fair comparison can be made. Now we try to make sure that the playing field is even, for instance...103" screen, 1080P projectors (3LCD)/(DLP) with same capabilities such as 24fps, HDMI v1.3 capability, similar lumen count, contrast ratio and video processing technology, etc,....And yes, even when reps from Blu ray friendly companies see the comparison, in our venue, guess what? They are wowed by the quality of the HD DVD! Now they all may not admit completely that HD DVD looks better, but we see the expression on their faces, and a lot of times the expression screams out, "We really should be considering HD DVD as a possibility."
STT, have you ever seen HD DVD and Blu Ray movies side by side on the big screen?!
If you have, then you have a unique perspective on the subject, but if you haven't, how can you possibly suggest that what I stated in my previous post was unlikely?! Blu ray has improved no doubt. They have cleaned up alot of the noise in the newer releases, but it's arrogant presumption to think that what I stated was not fact.
I've said my piece. I'm sure you will counter and I welcome it. Having fun yet?!:cornut:
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[QUOTE=ldgibson76]
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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
STT, do actually read what you submit before you submit it to the forum?! Man, you have loss all credibility with a statement like the one you made above. "Many owners of the PS3 do not play games, but wanted the cheapest way into bluray." That is without a doubt, an opinion, not a smart opinion, but never the less, an opinion . You noticed, no one submitted a reply agreeing to that assumption! Wanna know why?!!!! Cause you're wrong!
The main reason why consumers purchased the PS3 was because of the gaming benefits, i.e., resolution, graphics, Madden, etc,.....Blu ray was the added bonus! People would have purchase the PS3 regardless of Blu ray capabilities. Why? Because it's all about the gaming! Blu ray playback was an after-thought for the average PS3 buyer. Once it became apparent that the games would not be readily available at the inception, that's when blu ray purchases took off. Yes, I agree that PS3 was the cheapest way to obtain bluray playback, but this may be a shot in the dark, but I'm sure that if the average consumer had their choice between a stand-alone player and the PS3 and the stand alone player was priced, at let's say $399.00 initially, PS3 may have acquired strong numbers, but not the totals it currently has. And for the most part, during the inception of Blu ray and HD DVD, the stand-alone Blu ray player was $1000! The average Blu ray customer was forced to purchase the PS3. And that was hard to swallow ($600.00) in it's own right. Have you ever heard a PS3 while in operation?! It's loud as hell! Cooling fans blowing for days! For the Video and audio purist, that's usually unacceptable. The PS3 is not the best solution for movie playback. That's not my opinion, that's a consensus. All I'm trying to say is if the Bluray players had been introduced at a more reasonable price point, your stand on Blu ray would have more merit.
Now regarding the remark you made about the cost to produce a HD DVD player..."$300.00" and selling the A2 for $99.00 or 199.00 is a big loss for Toshiba.....You're right STT, I don't know you, but with that logic, you do not under stand the Japanese MO when it comes to market penetration! It's a method that was established back in the late eighties with Toyota/Lexus. When Lexus introduced the LS400 at a starting price of $38,500.00, a full size import luxury car with an multivalve 8 cylinder, it turn the luxury automotive world upside down. Why, because Mercedes Benz and BMW, the leaders in that division at that time knew that after disecting the LS400, realized that that car should be 50K all day. At that time, a 6 cylinder E class was 50K and the 5 Series was well over 45K. Now, after Lexus took over the market, they priced the car appropriately, by then it was too late. No matter what BMW and Mercedes did, the damage was done. Name recognition, quality, customer service became the epitome of Lexus. Even today, luxury car manufacturers are still playing catch-up ball! Moral of the story, Toshiba knows exactly what they are doing. A lot of so-called authorities in the industry predicted that the HD DVD camp would close down shop a year ago, wouldn't last 6 months. Now you have the Sony CEO coming out publicly and stating that after all the claims of Blu Ray victory, "It's a stalemate!" No where in that statement did he specify who he was trying to pacify!
Create a perception, and 9 times out of 10, it becomes a reality. But the one time that it doesn't, you know what they say about spitting into the wind?!!! There's always a chance it will fly back into your face! Didn't mean to give you a lessen in Japanese marketing, but it is now the standard of penetration and domination in today's consumer market!
Last but surely not least, let's talk about the people who visit my design center and view HD DVD images and Blu ray images side by side on 80" x 45" and larger screens. STT, we have a healthy collection of Bluray and HD DVD movies. We make sure that if a movie is out in both Blu ray and HD DVD we have them so a fair comparison can be made. Now we try to make sure that the playing field is even, for instance...103" screen, 1080P projectors (3LCD)/(DLP) with same capabilities such as 24fps, HDMI v1.3 capability, similar lumen count, contrast ratio and video processing technology, etc,....And yes, even when reps from Blu ray friendly companies see the comparison, in our venue, guess what? They are wowed by the quality of the HD DVD! Now they all may not admit completely that HD DVD looks better, but we see the expression on their faces, and alot of times the expression screams out, "We really should be considering HD DVD as a possibility."
STT, have you ever seen HD DVD and Blu Ray movies side by side on the big screen?!
If you have, then you have a unique perspective on the subject, but if you haven't, how can you possibly suggest that what I stated in my previous post was not likely?! Blu ray has improved no doubt. They have cleaned up alot of the noise in the newer releases, but it's arrogant presumption to think that what I stated was not fact.
I've said my piece. I'm sure you will counter and I welcome it. Having fun yet?!:cornut:
Not too worry he will certainly attempt to twist around everything that you just said with a 30 page quote by quote dissection of useless rhetoric that will somehow try to counter what you said and/or take what you said out of context in yet another attempt to diminish a members credibility by attacking it with a ego problem.
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Although I found the lesson on Japanese marketing sincerely interesting, one question comes to mind, isn't Sony and Panasonic Japanese as well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Although I found the lesson on Japanese marketing sincerely interesting, one question comes to mind, isn't Sony and Panasonic Japanese as well.
Well, your ability to state the obvious is at an epic level!:) (only kidding)
Well of course they are both Japanese companies and market conditions sets the terms when it comes to strategic marketing. Like Lexus in the past, Toshiba has a lot to prove. Yes introducing a new concept is risky to say the least. Think about it......When Toyota considered entering that segment of the market, they knew that for them to be successful, they would have to create a brand new mind set for the public at large. Perception! Same luxury & prestige, but with better service, reliability and lower price! Toshiba's quest is very similar. Before HD DVD, they accepted their place in the market behind the big boys.....Sony, Panasonic, Philips, and more recently, Samsung and LG. But introducing HD DVD, sole proprietary technology against the masses, to swing market share, the quality had to on par with the competition at half the price. I believe they have accomplished that. Along with a little business savvy, i.e. Paramount/Dreamworks. And don't give me that tired, worn out, "they paid Paramount off" excuse. What do you think Sony/Blu ray did in the beginning with Target, Blockbuster, Disney, etc.....
My point is that all of the companies at one time or another follow this strategy when the market demands that type of execution and when they are trying to change a mind set. Hey, when they don't follow the Lexus model, failure is inevitable.....check Sony with the Qualia line! Utter failure! If the Qualia product been priced reasonably, it would a sold like hotcakes and Sony would have the Flat panel market in the palm of it's hands....but that's not the case is it?! Companies like Vizio and Maxent, Samsung and LG, have stolen the market. The standard has been established. Lowball, sell, capture, maintain!
It's now the American way! Holla!:cornut:
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[QUOTE=ldgibson76]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
STT, do actually read what you submit before you submit it to the forum?! Man, you have loss all credibility with a statement like the one you made above. "Many owners of the PS3 do not play games, but wanted the cheapest way into bluray." That is without a doubt, an opinion, not a smart opinion, but never the less, an opinion . You noticed, no one submitted a reply agreeing to that assumption! Wanna know why?!!!! Cause you're wrong!
Well Mr Gibson, maybe instead of posting FUD like HD DVD looks better than Bluray, you should go out a visit other sites. Bluray.com is full of people just like me who bought the PS3 at the $499 price because A) it was the cheapest way into bluray, B) it is a full profile player capable of fully fullfilling the 2.0 profile, C) Can playback SACD's with the best of them D) allow me to remove a laptop computer I was using to stream and store music. That is not an opinion, that is a fact. If you go to Bluray.com and ask who owns the PS3 and is not a gamer, you will be very surprised. So why don't you do that instead of sitting here thinking that someones opinion is smart or dumb, because I must say, without doing so, you look pretty silly making this comment. This is a challenge to you, except it, and prove me wrong, or stay here in an ignorant pool of your own thoughts.
Unlike you, I do not need anyone to co-sign to what I say.
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The main reason why consumers purchased the PS3 was because of the gaming benefits, i.e., resolution, graphics, Madden, etc,.....Blu ray was the added bonus! People would have purchase the PS3 regardless of Blu ray capabilities. Why? Because it's all about the gaming!
Did you not know that there are not many games for the PS3 at this moment Mr. know everything? Nobody is buying the PS3 for the games they are currently offering, because there are not that many that would warrant the price. GroundBeef can tell you that!
Bluray is an integral part of the PS3, that is why(unlike the XBOX360) the drive is built in. If it was meant for just gaming, then why include a bluray drive? Why include the capability to play SACD? Why include upscaling of standard DVD's? Why support 1080p at 24fps? Why even bother with making it a full profile player? The XBOX360 does not including any audio support but CD. It does not offer lossless audio like the PS3. The manual states that it is a digital entertainment center, so what does that tell you?
The XBOX360 uses a external HD DVD drive, so its addition is an afterthought. The PS3's bluray drive is internal, which mean the drive was part of the original design, not an after thought.
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Blu ray playback was an after-thought for the average PS3 buyer. Once it became apparent that the games would not be readily available at the inception, that's when blu ray purchases took off.
This is common HD DVD fanboy FUD. This is not an educated statement. You are guessing this. Gamers knew long before launch that there was not going to be any decent games to play on the PS3. There is no indication at all that many of them where not going to purchase movies even if there was. If you read the gaming boards at Bluray.com, the opposite is more accurate.
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Yes, I agree that PS3 was the cheapest way to obtain bluray playback, but this may be a shot in the dark, but I'm sure that if the average consumer had their choice between a stand-alone player and the PS3 and the stand alone player was priced, at let's say $399.00 initially, PS3 may have acquired strong numbers, but not the totals it currently has.
Your shot in the dark missed its target. This is speculative because it did not happen that way did it? I choose to stick with facts, not what COULD have happened. I personally think you are wrong. The reality is, there is no bluray player at any price that has the same capabilities as the PS3. None have the ease of upgradablility, none have the SACD playback capability, and none have the ability to stream or store music. These things were big selling points to us non gamers who purchase the PS3. You can underestimate this at your intellectual peril.
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And for the most part, during the inception of Blu ray and HD DVD, the stand-alone Blu ray player was $1000! The average Blu ray customer was forced to purchase the PS3. And that was hard to swallow ($600.00) in it's own right.
Nobody held a gun to anyones head and made them purchase a PS3. There were plenty of folks who purchased the BD-1000 when it was released. Both Panasonic and Phillips released standalones before the introduction of the PS3. So much for that theory.
So now you have become the expert of the minds of PS3 owners. Wow, you areeither brillant, or foolish as hell. We are not at inception anymore, and there is no point in bringing it up, things are the way they are right?
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Have you ever heard a PS3 while in operation?! It's loud as hell! Cooling fans blowing for days! For the Video and audio purist, that's usually unacceptable.
In case you have not checked my sig, I own a PS3. I have never heard the fan in my player go off not even once. Not even when performing Folding@home calculations which are processor intensive. The problem with fan noise is not widespread, and only effected the earliest of PS3 models. So either you are completely out of touch with current PS3 operation, or you are following Nightliar pattern of overstating an old issue. I think its both personally. The reality is, in the typical home, the background noise of refridgerators, fans, other electronics, cars going down the street, and various other external noise could easily mask any fan noise coming from the PS3 if the problem still existed. You are overblowing your point AGAIN!!
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The PS3 is not the best solution for movie playback. That's not my opinion, that's a consensus. All I'm trying to say is if the Bluray players had been introduced at a more reasonable price point, your stand on Blu ray would have more merit.
Well your consensus is somewhat suspect. This sounds more like your uneducated opinion. Sound And Vision rated the PS3 over the Panasonic DMP-BD 10, and the firmware upgraded Samsung BP-1000. This was before all of the major firmware upgrades to the video.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hd-...-up-page6.html
Ultimate AV does not agree with you.
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/hddiscplayers/1206ps3blu/
Cnet does not agree with you.
http://reviews.cnet.com/consoles/son...-31355103.html
Now all of these reviews are dated. Since these review that PS3 has had several firmware upgrades that have really improved performance. If it could compete (and beat) with other bluray players that cost almost twice it price, then it must be as suitable to a videophile as any other player. The fan noise was a product of the 90 nano chips. All players released after March of 2007 have the 65 nano chipset. They run much cooler, and do not need the fan nearly as much.
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Now regarding the remark you made about the cost to produce a HD DVD player..."$300.00" and selling the A2 for $99.00 or 199.00 is a big loss for Toshiba.....You're right STT, I don't know you, but with that logic, you do not under stand the Japanese MO when it comes to market penetration! It's a method that was established back in the late eighties with Toyota/Lexus. When Lexus introduced the LS400 at a starting price of $38,500.00, a full size import luxury car with an multivalve 8 cylinder, it turn the luxury automotive world upside down. Why, because Mercedes Benz and BMW, the leaders in that division at that time knew that after disecting the LS400, realized that that car should be 50K all day. At that time, a 6 cylinder E class was 50K and the 5 Series was well over 45K. Now, after Lexus took over the market, they priced the car appropriately, by then it was too late. No matter what BMW and Mercedes did, the damage was done. Name recognition, quality, customer service became the epitome of Lexus. Even today, luxury car manufacturers are still playing catch-up ball! Moral of the story, Toshiba knows exactly what they are doing. A lot of so-called authorities in the industry predicted that the HD DVD camp would close down shop a year ago, wouldn't last 6 months. Now you have the Sony CEO coming out publicly and stating that after all the claims of Blu Ray victory, "It's a stalemate!" No where in that statement did he specify who he was trying to pacify!
Sorry, but the A2 is no Lexus, and this is not the car industry. Your comparison is apples and oranges. And if the Japanese have such a specific way to do things, then why aren't Panasonic, Sony, and Sharp following the Toshiba modell? This is bull****. The CE companies make products for profit. There is no Japanese model in the CE industry that supports producing products for losses. Toshiba is trying to flood the HD market with cheap player with the hope of getting Bluray exclusive Studio to go neutral. They want to create a larger player base so the studio cannot ignore leaving money on the table. Unfortunately the plan is not going to work. Disney and Fox have asked Toshiba and the DVD forum to include extra protection on disc, and region coding. They refused, and now they do not have their support. It is just that simple.
If year to date sales where any indication, before the Paramount deal, it would have been over. Bluray has outsold HD DVD in every week this year. The only time disc sales have been even close, was when Transformers was released, and Bluray had no exclusive titles released in that week. Bluray still beat HD DVD in sales that week, and have maintain a 2-1 sales lead over the entire year. Before Paramounts defection, Bluray sales were pulling away from HD DVD. Even after the Paramount defection, Bluray has maintained that 2-1 margin. Had Paramount stayed neutral, there would have been no way for HD DVD to ever catch up.
The CEO comments were taken completely out of context, and this easily clear that up.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwoc....html#stringer
As you can see his stalemate comments were referring to studio support, not disc sales, and not player sales.
Quote:
Create a perception, and 9 times out of 10, it becomes a reality. But the one time that it doesn't, you know what they say about spitting into the wind?!!! There's always a chance it will fly back into your face! Didn't mean to give you a lesson in Japanese marketing, but it is now the standard of penetration and domination in today's consumer market!
You call that a lesson. You are trying to explain why a company that does not sell software sells players at a loss? If this is a Japanese lesson, then why aren't all the Japanese companies following this model. I know of no Japanese car company producing cars to sell at a loss.(the Lexus you mention certainly didn't for Lexus) I know of no Japanese CE company(with the exception of Toshiba) that creates any product to sell at a loss. I understand creating a cheap player to acheive greater market penetration, but at a loss, and with no other revenue stream to counter it, I do not think you taught me anything but bull**** 101.
History has already taught us a lesson. If you attempt to support a format by yourself, you will fail. Beta has provided that lesson. If Toshiba knew what they were doing, then why did they have to spend $150 million dollars to get a studio to go exclusive their way?
Your lesson is for idiots.
Quote:
Last but surely not least, let's talk about the people who visit my design center and view HD DVD images and Blu ray images side by side on 80" x 45" and larger screens. STT, we have a healthy collection of Bluray and HD DVD movies. We make sure that if a movie is out in both Blu ray and HD DVD we have them so a fair comparison can be made. Now we try to make sure that the playing field is even, for instance...103" screen, 1080P projectors (3LCD)/(DLP) with same capabilities such as 24fps, HDMI v1.3 capability, similar lumen count, contrast ratio and video processing technology, etc,....And yes, even when reps from Blu ray friendly companies see the comparison, in our venue, guess what? They are wowed by the quality of the HD DVD!
Wow, you really are full of it. If what you say is true, then why doesn't HD DVD video and audio scores reflect this? These scores come from five different websites with reviewers equipment all above average in quality, all ISF calibrated. Some have screen sizes as large as 130" and review both formats. Why has one of the largest installation networks come out in favor of Bluray? If what you say is true, then they should all be following after you right?
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=532
The only studio releasing to both formats is Warner. They use identical encodes for video for both formats. So can you tell me with identical encodes, how can the HD DVD look better? And if what you say is true, then why does review after review of identical releases produces simular scores?
I have over 140 HD DVD titles, and over 230 bluray titles. This is enough to compare both formats pretty well. My experience on my high end ISF calibrated display does not mimick yours. My display supports 1080p and beyond, 24fps, deep color, and I have a 15K HD definition broadcast quality audio/video processor in front of it. I am sorry, but what you are telling me is that you are nothing more than a HD DVD shill. You are not an objective source at all.
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Now they all may not admit completely that HD DVD looks better, but we see the expression on their faces, and a lot of times the expression screams out, "We really should be considering HD DVD as a possibility."
Right, not only can you read minds, but you read expressions as well. This is thick. I think this is more like "I hope they are thinking that" than a reality. I am sorry, and with all due respect, this kind of anecdotal crap does not impress me. The scores do not lie, they do not agree with a damn thing you say. They may not admit completely because they do not believe its true.
http://www.dvdfile.com/index.php?opt...6326&Itemid=11
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STT, have you ever seen HD DVD and Blu Ray movies side by side on the big screen?!
I have seen them side by side in real time on my screen. I sit at the THX recommeded closeness that allows me to see every detail there is in the picture. The size of the screen is not important, its the quality of the display, the quality of the internal processing, and how far you sit that determines quality. I have seen several bluray movies blown up on a 30ft screen at both Panasonics mastering lab, and on Sony's lot.
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If you have, then you have a unique perspective on the subject, but if you haven't, how can you possibly suggest that what I stated in my previous post was unlikely?!
Because every one of the reviewers I mentioned has screen sizes larger than yours, and the score they give to each formats video would agree with yours. They don't, and that is what makes your previous suggestions unlikely. I prefer more objective opinions on the quality of each formats video, not the word from a person who sells HD DVD players. If your business was on the line, or your profits, you would say anything. These reviewers have nothing to gain for just saying anything, they do not profit from their reviews. I know, I am a reviewer.
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Blu ray has improved no doubt. They have cleaned up alot of the noise in the newer releases, but it's arrogant presumption to think that what I stated was not fact.
I've said my piece. I'm sure you will counter and I welcome it. Having fun yet?!:cornut:
Well, Universal still has yet to clean up the noise in their newer releases. They still have yet to support lossless audio consistantly. That can be said for Paramount as well.
It would be foolish for me to believe what you state. You have no proof to offer but your anecdotal responses. That means nothing to me unless the video scores from reviewers supported what you state. They don't, so I must be arrogant as hell, because I do not believe you. I own, and have viewed enough titles from both format to know that you are just not telling the truth.
Anyone who comes here, and states they own a business that sells HD DVD players, they are automatically discounted as an objective source. Just like the BDA, and the HD DVD PG. Anyone that stands to gain financially from this war, is a paid shill, and nothing more IMO. You are the last person I would listen to. No offense, and nothing personal.
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[QUOTE=PeruvianSkies]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldgibson76
Not too worry he will certainly attempt to twist around everything that you just said with a 30 page quote by quote dissection of useless rhetoric that will somehow try to counter what you said and/or take what you said out of context in yet another attempt to diminish a members credibility by attacking it with a ego problem.
It only takes less than a paragraph to shoot you down, so Mr Gibson has alot on you my pervious friend
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[QUOTE=Sir Terrence the Terrible]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
It only takes less than a paragraph to shoot you down, so Mr Gibson has alot on you my pervious friend
I just won't indulge you with fodder, i've learned to not feed trolls around here.
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Low balling prices is not the way to gain your company name prestige. Not that I entirely agree but you take a poll and I bet most see Sony as synonomus with quality. I don't think they would gain much by getting in the basement to see who can give a product away for the cheapest price. Samsung and Toshiba were both known as entry level gear. What changed that perception was when they both started putting out quality TV's that got rave reviews. Their DLP's weren't cheap when they first came out but they took off big because of picture quality, Toshiba and Samsung were among the top. They're DLP's performed and created a buzz that caught on. I believe that if it hadn't been for Toshiba's DLP's coming out first, before the HD-DVD players, that they wouldn't have gotten as far as they are now.
Let's take the Lexus scenario for a moment. Why did Toyota have to put out a high end car under a new name? I'd say it's because Toyota as a name could not compete with Benz or BMW in that high dollar market. So they had to create a new line and to get it attention they did what you mentioned. I don't think this is similar to the HD disc war at all.
I'm not familiar with the Qualia line or what happened but Sony suffered some QC set backs that hurt them. But no one expects to get a cheap TV from Sony. What they expect is one that in performance is one of the best. Wegas were always more expensive and Sony had no problem selling them. Price is not always an issue as the HD disc wars show. Sony is battling back with the Bravia line but did struggle to gain market share in other technologies when tubes went by the wayside. They did get some traction in the Plasma arena. I haven't seen a Vizio, nor do I know if anyone carries them locally. I have seen articles claiming they are very good but they don't seem to be hurting the Bravia line and they aren't becoming a household name.
I really don't know how this war will pan out. You never know what might happen. I saw where MGM has put a halt on some BR titles with no date for future release, what does this mean, if anything. Samsung who put out the first BR player now has a dual format. When I way the evidence I wouldn't call the war a draw. Especially if all the overseas figures are correct. I'd say the scale is still tipped toward BR. It's the continual introduction to market new products that gives me this feeling. If BR goes down though it will hurt a lot of companies who have products on the market. I'd be interested to see if Onkyo are selling any of there expensive HD-DVD players, I think it was going to run $899.00.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldgibson76
Well, your ability to state the obvious is at an epic level!:) (only kidding)
Toshiba's quest is very similar. Before HD DVD, they accepted their place in the market behind the big boys.....Sony, Panasonic, Philips, and more recently, Samsung and LG. But introducing HD DVD, sole proprietary technology against the masses, to swing market share, the quality had to on par with the competition at half the price.
Ummm, you call lip sync'ing issues quality? You call freezing and skipping quality. These problems do dog HD DVD. It dogged my A1, and my XA-2. When I downloaded the firmware to upgrade to 24fps, it made the problems worse. So much for quality.
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I believe they have accomplished that. Along with a little business savvy, i.e. Paramount/Dreamworks. And don't give me that tired, worn out, "they paid Paramount off" excuse. What do you think Sony/Blu ray did in the beginning with Target, Blockbuster, Disney, etc.....
Paying a studio to not support a format is unprecedented. The price for doing so is also unprecedented. What the BDA did with Target and Blockbuster has been done so many time before its not funny. Buying end caps is nothing new, the DVD forum did it with the DVD for years. Disney is a member of the BDA, and has to pay dues just like any other member. Disney did not take any other payouts to support bluray. This I know for a fact.
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My point is that all of the companies at one time or another follow this strategy when the market demands that type of execution and when they are trying to change a mind set. Hey, when they don't follow the Lexus model, failure is inevitable.....check Sony with the Qualia line! Utter failure! If the Qualia product been priced reasonably, it would a sold like hotcakes and Sony would have the Flat panel market in the palm of it's hands....but that's not the case is it?! Companies like Vizio and Maxent, Samsung and LG, have stolen the market. The standard has been established. Lowball, sell, capture, maintain!
It's now the American way! Holla!:cornut:
The push to the bottom only supports substandard products. The A1, the A2 are prime examples of that. So are the cheap chinese DVD players. Apex did what you mentioned, they are no longer around. You have not mention the Bravia line, nor the SXRD line right?
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[QUOTE=PeruvianSkies]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
I just won't indulge you with fodder, i've learned to not feed trolls around here.
Your gonna starve to death perv type individual.
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STT!
Must you be so hostile!?! The name calling is so juvenile. Guy, it's ok to disagree. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Do I favor the HD DVD format over Blu ray? Yes I do. Am I so blinded that I can't recognize the Blu ray technology. No I'm not. I've acknowledged BD advantages. But I've also witnessed it's shortcomings. You can chop up dice and slice my statements all you want. That's your time and prerogative. I know what I've seen and experienced. And by the way, I never said I owed my place of employment, but I am the Manager of the Design center. And unless you are there, you really do not have a perspective, and contrary to your belief, we do sell both format players. Usually when a client is interested in a 1080P capable Home Theater, the rule of thumb is to include both types in the package unless the client has a preference for one or the other. Why am I explaining this to you. Continue to read your websites of choice and get someone else's opinion and adopt it as your own, like you've been doing, and I'll continue to live in the real world and deal with real people in a real way. Have fun with your PS3. No matter how this format war concludes, it was fun getting you riled up. It's not that critical man! And by the way, Toyota did sell the LS400 at a loss for the first 2-3 years to achieve market penetration and just because you've never heard of something happening doesn't mean that it didn't, "Mr. Wizard", "Nostradamus" or "The Amazing Randy"! pick one! I could swear that I was debating with one of them!
Have a nice evening!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldgibson76
STT!
Must you be so hostile!?! The name calling is so juvenile. Guy, it's ok to disagree. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Do I favor the HD DVD format over Blu ray? Yes I do. Am I so blinded that I can't recognize the Blu ray technology. No I'm not. I've acknowledged BD advantages. But I've also witnessed it's shortcomings. You can chop up dice and slice my statements all you want. That's your time and prerogative. I know what I've seen and experienced. And by the way, I never said I owed my place of employment, but I am the Manager of the Design center. And unless you are there, you really do not have a perspective, and contrary to your belief, we do sell both format players. Usually when a client is interested in a 1080P capable Home Theater, the rule of thumb is to include both types in the package unless the client has a preference for one or the other. Why am I explaining this to you. Continue to read your websites of choice and get someone else's opinion and adopt it as your own, like you've been doing, and I'll continue to live in the real world and deal with real people in a real way. Have fun with your PS3. No matter how this format war concludes, it was fun getting you riled up. It's not that critical man! And by the way, Toyota did sell the LS400 at a loss for the first 2-3 years to achieve market penetration and just because you've never heard of something happening doesn't mean that it didn't, "Mr. Wizard", "Nostradamus" or "The Amazing Randy"! pick one! I could swear that I was debating with one of them!
Have a nice evening!
I like both formats, which is why I opted to get the LG player first, and I also have a few discs in both formats, including A ROOM WITH A VIEW, GALAPOGOS, and PLANET EARTH. I also own titles on each format and will reap the benefits of both, as long as I can play both I am not in any rush to see either end. There have also been real highlights on both formats, like the STAR TREK HD-DVD original series or Blu-ray's OLDBOY. I also have the Jack Ryan HD-DVD set, which apparently is recalled and will later come with extras. So for me, having both is keeping the product push strong and i'll take what I can get.
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[QUOTE=ldgibson76]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
STT, do actually read what you submit before you submit it to the forum?! Man, you have loss all credibility with a statement like the one you made above. "Many owners of the PS3 do not play games, but wanted the cheapest way into bluray." That is without a doubt, an opinion, not a smart opinion, but never the less, an opinion . You noticed, no one submitted a reply agreeing to that assumption! Wanna know why?!!!! Cause you're wrong!
The main reason why consumers purchased the PS3 was because of the gaming benefits, i.e., resolution, graphics, Madden, etc,.....Blu ray was the added bonus! People would have purchase the PS3 regardless of Blu ray capabilities. Why? Because it's all about the gaming! Blu ray playback was an after-thought for the average PS3 buyer. Once it became apparent that the games would not be readily available at the inception, that's when blu ray purchases took off. Yes, I agree that PS3 was the cheapest way to obtain bluray playback, but this may be a shot in the dark, but I'm sure that if the average consumer had their choice between a stand-alone player and the PS3 and the stand alone player was priced, at let's say $399.00 initially, PS3 may have acquired strong numbers, but not the totals it currently has. And for the most part, during the inception of Blu ray and HD DVD, the stand-alone Blu ray player was $1000! The average Blu ray customer was forced to purchase the PS3. And that was hard to swallow ($600.00) in it's own right. Have you ever heard a PS3 while in operation?! It's loud as hell! Cooling fans blowing for days! For the Video and audio purist, that's usually unacceptable. The PS3 is not the best solution for movie playback. That's not my opinion, that's a consensus. All I'm trying to say is if the Bluray players had been introduced at a more reasonable price point, your stand on Blu ray would have more merit.
Now regarding the remark you made about the cost to produce a HD DVD player..."$300.00" and selling the A2 for $99.00 or 199.00 is a big loss for Toshiba.....You're right STT, I don't know you, but with that logic, you do not under stand the Japanese MO when it comes to market penetration! It's a method that was established back in the late eighties with Toyota/Lexus. When Lexus introduced the LS400 at a starting price of $38,500.00, a full size import luxury car with an multivalve 8 cylinder, it turn the luxury automotive world upside down. Why, because Mercedes Benz and BMW, the leaders in that division at that time knew that after disecting the LS400, realized that that car should be 50K all day. At that time, a 6 cylinder E class was 50K and the 5 Series was well over 45K. Now, after Lexus took over the market, they priced the car appropriately, by then it was too late. No matter what BMW and Mercedes did, the damage was done. Name recognition, quality, customer service became the epitome of Lexus. Even today, luxury car manufacturers are still playing catch-up ball! Moral of the story, Toshiba knows exactly what they are doing. A lot of so-called authorities in the industry predicted that the HD DVD camp would close down shop a year ago, wouldn't last 6 months. Now you have the Sony CEO coming out publicly and stating that after all the claims of Blu Ray victory, "It's a stalemate!" No where in that statement did he specify who he was trying to pacify!
Create a perception, and 9 times out of 10, it becomes a reality. But the one time that it doesn't, you know what they say about spitting into the wind?!!! There's always a chance it will fly back into your face! Didn't mean to give you a lesson in Japanese marketing, but it is now the standard of penetration and domination in today's consumer market!
Last but surely not least, let's talk about the people who visit my design center and view HD DVD images and Blu ray images side by side on 80" x 45" and larger screens. STT, we have a healthy collection of Bluray and HD DVD movies. We make sure that if a movie is out in both Blu ray and HD DVD we have them so a fair comparison can be made. Now we try to make sure that the playing field is even, for instance...103" screen, 1080P projectors (3LCD)/(DLP) with same capabilities such as 24fps, HDMI v1.3 capability, similar lumen count, contrast ratio and video processing technology, etc,....And yes, even when reps from Blu ray friendly companies see the comparison, in our venue, guess what? They are wowed by the quality of the HD DVD! Now they all may not admit completely that HD DVD looks better, but we see the expression on their faces, and a lot of times the expression screams out, "We really should be considering HD DVD as a possibility."
STT, have you ever seen HD DVD and Blu Ray movies side by side on the big screen?!
If you have, then you have a unique perspective on the subject, but if you haven't, how can you possibly suggest that what I stated in my previous post was unlikely?! Blu ray has improved no doubt. They have cleaned up alot of the noise in the newer releases, but it's arrogant presumption to think that what I stated was not fact.
I've said my piece. I'm sure you will counter and I welcome it. Having fun yet?!:cornut:
I bought my PS3 for the BR. I can't speak for the rest of the world.
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And the trophy for longest post goes to.................................:7:
Hmm......I don't remember being handed a survey when I purchased my PS3 :idea:
Person: Excuse me sir, are you purchasing this product for BR movies or gaming?
LJ: Huh, what the heck are you talking about?
Person: Sir, you must either use it for BR or for gaming.....NOW PICK!
LJ: Get out of my face........why are you following me to my car?
Person: Sir, just answer...........Sir, wait........my shirt is caught in your car door!
LJ: Get off my car you idiot!
Person: He drove off with my shirt. 3rd one I lost today.
Yeah, I know I'm freaking crazy. You gotta problem with that :incazzato:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.J.
And the trophy for longest post goes to.................................:7:
Hmm......I don't remember being handed a survey when I purchased my PS3 :idea:
Person: Excuse me sir, are you purchasing this product for BR movies or gaming?
LJ: Huh, what the heck are you talking about?
Person: Sir, you must either use it for BR or for gaming.....NOW PICK!
LJ: Get out of my face........why are you following me to my car?
Person: Sir, just answer...........Sir, wait........my shirt is caught in your car door!
LJ: Get off my car you idiot!
Person: He drove off with my shirt. 3rd one I lost today.
Yeah, I know I'm freaking crazy. You gotta problem with that :incazzato:
Now that's frickin' funny.
Some dumbass in the parking lot with no shirt, holding a clipboard, with a rejected look on his face.
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[QUOTE=GMichael]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldgibson76
I bought my PS3 for the BR. I can't speak for the rest of the world.
I think the difficultly on this topic about PS3/Game/BluRay is that on THIS board, more than likely the owner of the PS3 DID buy it for BR. However this can be explained because most readers/participants of this board are typically more interested in AV.
But if you go over to the game sites, you would be an anomoly.
There have been several surveys/polls out that indicate that the general populace are really not a) going to use the BR function of the PS3, or b) aware there is even a BR player on the unit itself.
Most reports are suggesting that 40% of PS3 owners don't even know that there is a player on board.
Of those that DO know there is a player, there was only a BR movie in 1 in 10 times the console is used, suggesting that the remaining 60% of PS3 owners are only using the BR movie function 10% of the time.
Heres the link:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...abilities.html
Here's another:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/200...ms_can_do.html
So aside from the anecdotal stories from members here, MOST people that have a PS3 either are unaware of the BR movie function, and of the remaining % don't use it as a BR movie player a majority of the time.
I am not suggesting the PS3 isn't a viable, or good playback device of BR movies, but it's just not the mode of choice for the PS3.
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[QUOTE=Groundbeef]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
I think the difficultly on this topic about PS3/Game/BluRay is that on THIS board, more than likely the owner of the PS3 DID buy it for BR. However this can be explained because most readers/participants of this board are typically more interested in AV.
But if you go over to the game sites, you would be an anomoly.
There have been several surveys/polls out that indicate that the general populace are really not a) going to use the BR function of the PS3, or b) aware there is even a BR player on the unit itself.
Most reports are suggesting that 40% of PS3 owners don't even know that there is a player on board.
Of those that DO know there is a player, there was only a BR movie in 1 in 10 times the console is used, suggesting that the remaining 60% of PS3 owners are only using the BR movie function 10% of the time.
Heres the link:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...abilities.html
Here's another:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/200...ms_can_do.html
So aside from the anecdotal stories from members here, MOST people that have a PS3 either are unaware of the BR movie function, and of the remaining % don't use it as a BR movie player a majority of the time.
I am not suggesting the PS3 isn't a viable, or good playback device of BR movies, but it's just not the mode of choice for the PS3.
But the PS3 comes with BR movies. How could anyone not know that it would play one after buying it?
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[QUOTE=GMichael]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundbeef
But the PS3 comes with BR movies. How could anyone not know that it would play one after buying it?
Remeber, these are the same huddled masses that assume that when you buy a HDTV, you are now watching HDTV (regardless of the actual signal).
And, these are the same folks that buy a DVD upconverter "because its the same as HD!"-As heard at BB when asking a customer why they don't buy a HD-DVD or BR player.
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