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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
I actually don't regard that as a checkered past. Stereophile used to be a more sensible publication that actually covered sensibly priced components, and ways that consumers could get more enjoyment out of their systems. If mass market company made a decent product, Stereophile would let its readers know. At that time, The Absolute Sound was nothing more than anti-digital propagandizing while Stereo Review often didn't even include listening tests -- Stereophile simply took the middle road and did quite well.
I think that Stereophile's evolution has more or less followed the high end audio market's move towards ultra expensive statement pieces and high priced accessories. There seems to be more orthodoxy that's governed by what people perceive as high end, as opposed to simply informing readers about what quality gear is on the market regardless of whether it comes from a "high end" company.
At one point a few years ago, Stereophile did review some budget priced mass market components, but I think many of their readers got so offended by the inclusion of $300 JBL speakers that Stereophile went back to audio porn.
Stereophile still reviews the odd truly affordable components (PSB Alpha and Paradigm Atoms for example)...
Just about a month ago, we had a big debate on the Stereophile forums about why they review so much overpriced Audio Porn and so few affordable products... the simple answer from John Atkinson (not a direct quote, cuz I'm too lazy to go dig up one): was that Stereophile sells like hotcakes and the average amount of money Stereophile readers have invested in their setups is well over $16K...
Based on that response, most of us dropped the argument about reviewing more affordable gear.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
Don't be so sure of that. Bose's revenue is probably multiples greater than B&W and Paradigm. While both of those companies are among the largest specialty speaker manufacturers, the specialty speaker segment as a whole represents a tiny industry. Given that both B&W and Paradigm are vertically integrated companies that heavily invest in R&D and manufacturing, I would guess that they would rather invest in their plants and products than divert funds to TV ads.
The other aspect to this is the name recognition. Bose is very easy to find because they distribute to mass merchandise stores. A TV ad works for them because consumers already know the brand and see the products everywhere. B&W and Paradigm have chosen to build their brand equity by selling only through specialty stores. They can go on TV, but unless they do this pervasively and keep up the campaign over the course of years, no one will care much for some unknown company doing an infomercial selling an expensive product.
Problem here is would they rather take a shotgun approach at the mass market, or would they rather do a targeted approach to the specialty market? What approach gives them a higher rate of return on investment? The danger to going mass market is the dilution of product quality, and alienating your base market and dealer network. Paradigm and B&W operate their own plants (Paradigm goes as far as manufacturing its own drivers, crossovers, and active amps), but if a TV campaign creates a huge spike in demand, can they ramp up production while maintaining their product quality? Or do they bite the bullet and start outsourcing to China?
JBL showed the industry exactly how not to make a mass market transition when they began selling their products in discount stores and other mass merchandisers. They gained a foothold in big box stores, but they got dropped by nearly all of their specialty dealers in the process and pissed away their reputation in the process (once upon a time, a segment of the audiophile market actually spoke well of JBL).
I'm still not convinced that audio brands can't afford to advertise... My suspicion is that many of them are, like Stereophile, making enough money from their niche markets that they could care less about expanding...
I wonder if these brands even care how popular Bose is or whether it is just audiopsychos who feel offended by Bose.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
I wonder if these brands even care how popular Bose is or whether it is just audiopsychos who feel offended by Bose.
Does Lamborghini feel offended by how popular Kia's are?:smilewinkgrin:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
I'm still not convinced that audio brands can't afford to advertise... My suspicion is that many of them are, like Stereophile, making enough money from their niche markets that they could care less about expanding...
I wonder if these brands even care how popular Bose is or whether it is just audiopsychos who feel offended by Bose.
BOSE offends me.
They are proof positive that the white hats rarely win in this world, they have brainwashed
the masses into beleiving that they are the end all be all in not just home theater but
home audio.
I HAVE A B&W setup that run over 2500 bucks(yeah I KNOW, MODEST BY SOME STANDARDS) and do you know HOW many times I have been asked as to why I didnt buy "BOSE", or paticularly that my system is "nice" if I CANT AFFORD BOSE.
You can talk about how their "bass modules" cant produce true base, or the midrange gap between their satelites and their "bass modules", the crappiness of the cheap materials
they use, and the car stereo drivers they call speakers, nobody wants to hear it.
When I CRANK my stuff up and the walls start shaking I tend to get a new beleiver,
but its an uphill battle.
Basically people listening to BOSE are missing out on the true musical sound they could be experiencing, and thats sad, really.
EVERY time I see a bose product in its cheap plastic case I WANT TO UPCHUCK.
I listened to a pair of their bookshelfs once, with a CD that I knew inside and out,
entire instruments were missing.
I hate for people to lose their jobs too, but I dont see why people need a job making CRAP.
Not just crap, but CRAP SQUARED.:1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
Stereophile still reviews the odd truly affordable components (PSB Alpha and Paradigm Atoms for example)...
Just about a month ago, we had a big debate on the Stereophile forums about why they review so much overpriced Audio Porn and so few affordable products... the simple answer from John Atkinson (not a direct quote, cuz I'm too lazy to go dig up one): was that Stereophile sells like hotcakes and the average amount of money Stereophile readers have invested in their setups is well over $16K...
Based on that response, most of us dropped the argument about reviewing more affordable gear.
They will review a budget component every now and then, but it inevitably comes from a small specialty company that makes other high end models. They rarely if ever review a product from a mass market company, basically ceding that market over to Sound & Vision. I recall that there was an uproar a few years ago when Stereophile reviewed an inexpensive JBL speaker. And to me, that mindset among audiophiles is a problem. I guess that with Stereophile reviewing only a limited number of components in each issue, readers want their audio porn.
This is very different from the British audio magazines, which review upwards of 100 products in each issue. They don't seem as stymied by whether Company A is perceived by readers as a "high end" company. They'll review a budget HT receiver in the same issue as a Halcro amp. OTOH, their reviews are very short, and often don't include any technical data whatsoever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
I'm still not convinced that audio brands can't afford to advertise... My suspicion is that many of them are, like Stereophile, making enough money from their niche markets that they could care less about expanding...
It's a lot more complicated than that. As cited in my JBL example, when a company decides to go mass market, they don't just add the mass market to their current sales totals. They also potentially need to subtract sales from current dealers that will drop them once they start getting in bed with mass merchandisers. Generally, regional and independent audio stores don't like to support their competitors, and would rather pick up a new specialty brand than support a company that doesn't support them. The rise of companies like Paradigm, Energy, and PSB coincided with the decline of JBL in the specialty audio market.
I'm sure that B&W and Paradigm have the money to run a few ads, but also consider that if they go toe-to-toe with Bose, then their ads would consume a far higher percentage of total revenue, since Bose's revenues are much higher overall. They might spur some sales, but the product quality might nosedive in the process along with their finances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
I wonder if these brands even care how popular Bose is or whether it is just audiopsychos who feel offended by Bose.
I don't think they care, because these audio brands have staked out their market niche, and decided that the mass market is not worth the ramp up in sales, manufacturing, and customer support. If they go mass market, they go into a completely different business model. Bose is popular because they cater to the mass merchandising distribution channels. Their competition at that level is Sony, Logitech, JVC, JBL, et al. B&W and Paradigm purposely stay out of the mass merchandising market.
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Maybe it's the case that companies who advertise and go for the mass market, are likely to also be public, whereas those that don't, will tend to be privately held. Perhaps the stock holders, who may not even care about the audiophile quality of the products, have more influence on what a company does than we may want to admit.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajani
Fine, that was a nasty post.... and based on the tone I'm going to assume it was part of a quarrel... Posts made during quarrels are not always the best reflection of what someone really thinks...
I've seen (and to some extent been involved in) some of the political exchanges between you and Feanor... Feanor has a lot of very strong opinions on American Politics and you 'appear' to dislike hearing foreigners' opinions on your country... This is a perfect recipe for misunderstandings...
I don't think Feanor hates Americans... What happens in America affects all of us foreigners and so we watch your elections and politics with held breath, hoping that we won't all get screwed if the American public votes for the wrong guy... America is like the musclebound jock in high school... if he chooses to use his brain and be a nice guy, then he can be a role model to the whole school, but if he decides to be a bully then everyone starts hiding...
You need to understand that there is a difference between hating someone and just being afraid of what they might do...
Unfortunately Ajani, I do not go to the polls and vote in a way that makes other countries more comfortable. If I vote for what I decide is good for my country, and it makes other countries uncomfortable, that's too bad I am afraid. I do not see citizens in other contries voting in a way that makes American more comfortable, the palestinians certainly didn't voting Hamas into power.
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While I sense the growing trend of mediocre, consumer-oriented fare in the hifi marketplace, I am heartened by knowing that folks like us are in place. This being the case, perhaps more august manufacturers will be spurred to continue their craft, even if the mainstream appeal makes doing so increasingly expensive and inaccessible.
Without the drive to improve, I am afraid that Wooh's prophesy of dilution of quality might bear out. This will certainly be the case of individuals who are more interested in making more green in the short term. On the other hand, brands that matter will not be so likely to cave to these pressures, realizing the suicidal implications of doing so.
I like the photo one of the Members posted a while back, of a grandson listening to some tunes on a nice, bulky pair of ear-cans. That post gave me some satisfaction that folks were still engaging each other in this dialog we share within this website. Music does matter, as much now as it did when we fell in love with it. Keeping the fire kindled here and with our youg 'uns is as good a way to keep it goin' than any other.
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Not aimed at you
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Originally Posted by Feanor
Noob, please clarify: are you accusing me of making generalizations about Americans? My complaints have been with a certain consituency in the US, not all Americans. I though this was perfectly clear: maybe not.
I have not read most of the political threads around here, although I do read the new ones. Whether or not you have the disdain you were accused of having...beats me. It's common knowledge there are many people who have a preconceived notion about all 300 million of us. Of course, there are many in the USA who have a preconceived notion about all 20 million of us Texans...so certainly it's human nature.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
Maybe it's the case that companies who advertise and go for the mass market, are likely to also be public, whereas those that don't, will tend to be privately held. Perhaps the stock holders, who may not even care about the audiophile quality of the products, have more influence on what a company does than we may want to admit.
That's a good point. Publicly traded companies are all about earnings and revenue growth, and creating value for shareholders. CEOs by definition are tasked with those goals. If they fail to create shareholder value, then the boards are obligated to dump them.
The example that comes to mind is Boston Acoustics. They started off by updating the New England sound. Once they went public, they strayed pretty far from their roots. Dumped the acoustic suspension designs and soft dome tweeters, and began producing metal domes and ported boxes. Then they dived headlong into sub/sat home theater systems, clock radios, and on-wall speakers. I recall that their revenue was always in the low eight-figure range -- not very big for a publicly traded company. They went private a couple of years ago when they were acquired by D&M Holdings (which itself seems to be constantly positioning to be acquired).
A private company like Audio Research can just settle into whatever niche they feel comfortable with, and operate without any pressure from shareholders or equity partners to keep pushing for double digit growth. In its early days, Audio Research could have grown pretty big because at that time they were one of the pioneering companies that specialized exclusively with high end components. They had a huge waiting list, but they chose to stay small. That might have kept them in business since that high end space is a lot more crowded nowadays.
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do you know HOW many times I have been asked as to why I didnt buy "BOSE", or paticularly that my system is "nice" if I CANT AFFORD BOSE.
Well, I WAS going to say something, but I think you folks covered it all. Good Job!
About the quote above...
It made me laugh cause someone once told me that my Quad ESL / Levinson system sounded ALMOST as good as his Bose.
Makes you wonder sometimes...?
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Geeze....Kinda reminds of the time I wistfully remarked to a Harley Davidson rider (the real kind, not an urban wannabe) that I missed my bike and the open road. When he asked me what I rode, I described my ride: a 1977 Honda 750K. He shook his head sadly and said, "Well, nobody's perfect."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auricauricle
Geeze....Kinda reminds of the time I wistfully remarked to a Harley Davidson rider (the real kind, not an urban wannabe) that I missed my bike and the open road. When he asked me what I rode, I described my ride: a 1977 Honda 750K. He shook his head sadly and said, "Well, nobody's perfect."
Hahaha. I got that from a few "Harley riders" back in the day. I must have ended up as one of those urban wannabe's in the end though. My last two bikes were Harleys, but I never embraced the whole grunge thing. One guy (who didn't even own a Harley) had the nerve to tell me that I wasn't a "real Harley rider." I told him that I really own a Harley and I really ride it. How about him? He wasn't happy, but the rest of the guys laughed.
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Originally Posted by GMichael
Hahaha. I got that from a few "Harley riders" back in the day. I must have ended up as one of those urban wannabe's in the end though. My last two bikes were Harleys, but I never embraced the whole grunge thing. One guy (who didn't even own a Harley) had the nerve to tell me that I wasn't a "real Harley rider." I told him that I really own a Harley and I really ride it. How about him? He wasn't happy, but the rest of the guys laughed.
you might have gotten more respect without the training wheels.
I bought a pair of BOSE 501 series fours during the mid eighties.
At seven hundred thats like 1400 today, a lot for a civil servant.
I was stuck with those monstrosities for ten years(had some hard times and couldnt aford to replace them)
They wouldnt fit anywhere, their "direct reflecting" sound was so much hooey.
WITHOUT the specially set up store display I couldnt get any kind of decent sound from
these atrocities. They were supposed to last me ten years.
Well, thats how long I had them, nobody would buy them.
They did make good looking end tables, tho.
GOD I hated those things!!!:1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
you might have gotten more respect without the training wheels.
How pix has managed to survive 3000 posts without getting his head blown off is just beyond anything I'm able to comprehend. :nonod:
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Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
How pix has managed to survive 3000 posts without getting his head blown off is just beyond anything I'm able to comprehend. :nonod:
Hey Rich, Pixs' role around here is to make the rest of us look good. Like a deer in the headlights, I gots to read what psychobabble he lays down next.
Keep it up Pix, I need to have a good laugh every now and then. :p
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Yeah, I suspect that if he DID get his head blown off, another one would just grow back anyway with its mouth already running. :rolleyes:
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And...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
How pix has managed to survive 3000 posts without getting his head blown off is just beyond anything I'm able to comprehend. :nonod:
He does't have a gun to protect himself either. What are the odds? I think he has nine lives.
But I agree with LDB, it's never boring with Pix around. I don't agree with 90% of what he posts, but what would we be without him?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
He does't have a gun to protect himself either. What are the odds? I think he has nine lives.
But I agree with LDB, it's never boring with Pix around. I don't agree with 90% of what he posts, but what would we be without him?
Only 90% ??
I get the feeling that even he doesn't agree with much of what he says. He knows it's ridiculous and is just saying it to get a rise out of us. Which it does.
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GM, you and rich get a rise every time the wind blows....:wink5:
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Originally Posted by Auricauricle
GM, you and rich get a rise every time the wind blows....:wink5:
True, but it takes Pixie to get a rise out of the rest of you geeks. Oops. Did I type that out loud?:eek6:
Rich made me say it.:wink5:
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Uh huh....Yeah you typed that out loud, you flower sniffin' dweeb!
Whoops! Tourette's Moment!
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I never do anything wrong.
I never get my way.
I never get to go anywhere.
I never get to do anything.
I never get anything.
(A woman's creed.)
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Does that make you....
Uh.....
Uhm....
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Uuuuhhh... NO! My ex-fiance from years ago used to say that. It's a summation of many many arguments.
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Sounds like a mantra t' me, Richie.....
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A man's creed: I never get any.
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nope, not gonna do it
It's far, far too easy....
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Originally Posted by Luvin Da Blues
Hey Rich, Pixs' role around here is to make the rest of us look good. Like a deer in the headlights, I gots to read what psychobabble he lays down next.
Keep it up Pix, I need to have a good laugh every now and then. :p
I thought you had a mirror for that.:1:
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Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
Yeah, I suspect that if he DID get his head blown off, another one would just grow back anyway with its mouth already running. :rolleyes:
Watching a lot of MIB again?
Of course with my head blown off I would still know more than you.:1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
He does't have a gun to protect himself either. What are the odds? I think he has nine lives.
But I agree with LDB, it's never boring with Pix around. I don't agree with 90% of what he posts, but what would we be without him?
The fact that you dont agree with 90% of what I say warms my heart (in a jar on my desk)
when I remember that you voted for this idiot.:1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auricauricle
GM, you and rich get a rise every time the wind blows....:wink5:
The only thing that gives them a "rise" is triple strenght viagra with a crack/meth
chaser.:1:
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Originally Posted by GMichael
It was Rich's fault.
ALWAYS is, isnt it?:1:
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Originally Posted by Auricauricle
Uh huh....Yeah you typed that out loud, you flower sniffin' dweeb!
Whoops! Tourette's Moment!
You know, I saw the zippy avatar and instantly thought, "wow!"
WAY COOLNESS!
Then I realized it was a self portrait...:1:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Watching a lot of MIB again?
:lol: Actually I was watching it the other day. Is it out on BD yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by headless
Of course with my head blown off I would still know more than you.:1:
Yeah but you'd be uglier than you already are. :dita:
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Ooooh, that hurt, pixie. You make owie. Owww....
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Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
:lol: Actually I was watching it the other day. Is it out on BD yet?
Yeah but you'd be uglier than you already are. :dita:
DO YOU REALLY WANT to make it that easy on me?.
Oh, okay.
couldnt get near your acheivements in the field of being Butt ugly.:1:
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Sugar Beats would disagree with you nimrod. Oh but, you don't like women anyway so I guess it doesn't matter huh? :rolleyes:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
Sugar Beats would disagree with you nimrod. Oh but, you don't like women anyway so I guess it doesn't matter huh? :rolleyes:
You are kinda cute.:ihih:
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