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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Or maybe "appaulling". Like Pix, Congressman Ron Paul on CNN recently said the same thing: the current situation was caused by "liberal" policies. Huh? Say what?
These people really need to get past the stale right-wing ideology and look at the facts.
But, facts would mean using one's eyes rather than filtering everything through a looking glass! :cool:
Funny how the right-wing meme getting pushed right now is that the New Deal was a failure, and that the U.S. economy just kept stumbling along until Pearl Harbor. The facts are that the stock market quadrupled between the 1932 and 1937, and even after losing half of its value in 1938, the market rebounded back to more than triple its 1932 value in the years before 1942.
http://stockcharts.com/charts/historical/djia1900.html
And if you use GDP as a measuring stick of economic activity, here too the size of the U.S. economy more than doubled between 1932 and 1941 in constant dollars. The New Deal basically saved capitalism from itself, and paved the way for massive economic growth in the postwar years. Yet, these right wing hacks keep ignoring the failures of their own neo-Hooverist agenda just so they preach the bankrupt mantra of top-heavy tax cuts and deregulation one more time.
http://www.measuringworth.org/usgdp/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kexodusc
Wow, Pix is really throwing out "socialism" and "communism" like it's going out of style.
Funny, some of the more social-democratic countries are the ones in the best position to navigate through the global economic crisis.
Can't have it both ways - it was capitalism, greedy banks with no foresight, and ignorant consumers with little restraint that got us here...not social programs. Unless you're talking about the most expensive socialist program of them all - military spending.
Much easier to blame "Liberals" than to look in the mirror though.
:thumbsup:
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Pixel-ism
OK, let's see how nutty your comments sound when we reverse the labels:
"OH, you conservatives are so cute. You blame 70 odd years of failed policy (basically the notion of a unregulated capitalism) and in spite of the disaster you've turned this country into you still believe that the system will right itself. A TALKING HEAD on some talk show declared capitalism a disease, a refusal to grow up, a childlike hankering for the "the market" to magically fix everything."
And let's then presume McCain had won:
"I have made a few predictions (all incorrect) on this site, and I WILL MAKE ANOTHER. THIS "inauguration" of the first foreign citizen (Panamanian) which is a violation of the constitution, a person who sells his soul to the highest bidder (yes he has), who has cursed this country (yup), who has sat on panels with known terrorists (check)... is the beginning of the end for this country. They (the McCain & Bush people) are already talking about further limiting free speech (they have talked about it for some time, they are actually going to do something definite about it) and institute "mandatory military service" (the draft). The great capitalism experiment is over. Not that anybody will notice, they will be too busy starving the rest of the world to death."
Isn't it funny how when you turn things around, it sounds just as nuts? Everything you're saying about Obama (sitting down with terrorists, restricting freedoms, not respecting our institutions) can all be said with the far more fervor about Bush/Cheney/McCain, and the whole lot of those old farts who still think we're fighting the cold war. Wasn't it Rumsfeld who was shaking Saddam's hand in that infamous photo? And wasn't it Rummy who had the Abu-Graib torturers on speaker phone in his office wile the screaming was being heard down the hall? Wasn't it Cheney who said he was above the law? Wasn't it Bush who said that like our enemies, he would continue to find ways to hurt his own people? Wasn't Mr. maverick-anti-special-interests-McCain one of the Keating five? Wasn't McCain pushing to bring back the draft? Wasn't it McCain who sought a no-oversight bail-out of the banks? The list goes on an on. Oh, and about that picture of good old Ronald Reagan, didn't his people cut a deal with the Ayatollah to get Carter out of office? Better yet, remember a little scandal called Iran-Contra? Yeah these guys are saints. Good for laugh, Pix, good for a laugh....
Get your head out of your rear and realize that the more you spout off like that, the less anyone respects your point of view or reads what you have to say. Just look at what the other "conservatives" have already posted. Get a clue. Even Tex is getting the hell out of your way. You're like Lyndon Larouche all over the place and crazy as all get out.
But you're a nice guy, I'm sure, so don't take it personally. Aside from your politics, you're probably a great guy to have a beer with. After all that's what they said about Bush before he started torturing, killing, and dismantling this country for everything it was worth. Remember, he was a uniter who reached accross the isles, the papers said. OK, yeah, good for a laugh. Politics make strange bed fellows, they say, but in this case you don't want to be hobnobbing with that crowd, however cozy it may feel under that blanket. Trust me, you really don't. Four years from now those kinds people will be dismissed as absolute loons.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
Or maybe "appaulling". Like Pix, Congressman Ron Paul on CNN recently said the same thing: the current situation was caused by "liberal" policies. Huh? Say what?
These people really need to get past the stale right-wing ideology and look at the facts.
RON PAUL ISNT A "CONSERVATIVE".
HES' A libertarian, as am I.
Get your facts straight.
And ron paul is right, the current mess is related to liberal policies, its also consevatives fault for selling out the few good ideas they had.
Madoff (with the money) ran a ponzi scheme. Big deal.
It pales next to the govt ponzi scheme, social security.
One thing about conservatives, if they have a bad idea they usually admit it, socialistic
policies , from FDR to the abamanation have never worked.
Even teh moist liberal economists are forced to admit that FDR'S "new deal" wasnt working, it took WWII to get us out of the last depression.
And heres obamanation pulling the same thing, throwing money , worthless printed money, at the problem.
I CAN ISSUE YOU A SINGLE GUARENTEE, "OBAMA"SAN and his policies will fail.
How do I know this?
BECAUSE THEY HAVE ALWAYS FAILED.
Pretty easy prediction.:1:
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1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
OK, let's see how nutty your comments sound when we reverse the labels:
"OH, you conservatives are so cute. You blame 70 odd years of failed policy (basically the notion of a unregulated capitalism) and in spite of the disaster you've turned this country into you still believe that the system will right itself. A TALKING HEAD on some talk show declared capitalism a disease, a refusal to grow up, a childlike hankering for the "the market" to magically fix everything."
And let's then presume McCain had won:
"I have made a few predictions (all incorrect) on this site, and I WILL MAKE ANOTHER. THIS "inauguration" of the first foreign citizen (Panamanian) which is a violation of the constitution, a person who sells his soul to the highest bidder (yes he has), who has cursed this country (yup), who has sat on panels with known terrorists (check)... is the beginning of the end for this country. They (the McCain & Bush people) are already talking about further limiting free speech (they have talked about it for some time, they are actually going to do something definite about it) and institute "mandatory military service" (the draft). The great capitalism experiment is over. Not that anybody will notice, they will be too busy starving the rest of the world to death."
Isn't it funny how when you turn things around, it sounds just as nuts? Everything you're saying about Obama (sitting down with terrorists, restricting freedoms, not respecting our institutions) can all be said with the far more fervor about Bush/Cheney/McCain, and the whole lot of those old farts who still think we're fighting the cold war. Wasn't it Rumsfeld who was shaking Saddam's hand in that infamous photo? And wasn't it Rummy who had the Abu-Graib torturers on speaker phone in his office wile the screaming was being heard down the hall? Wasn't it Cheney who said he was above the law? Wasn't it Bush who said that like our enemies, he would continue to find ways to hurt his own people? Wasn't Mr. maverick-anti-special-interests-McCain one of the Keating five? Wasn't McCain pushing to bring back the draft? Wasn't it McCain who sought a no-oversight bail-out of the banks? The list goes on an on. Oh, and about that picture of good old Ronald Reagan, didn't his people cut a deal with the Ayatollah to get Carter out of office? Better yet, remember a little scandal called Iran-Contra? Yeah these guys are saints. Good for laugh, Pix, good for a laugh....
Get your head out of your rear and realize that the more you spout off like that, the less anyone respects your point of view or reads what you have to say. Just look at what the other "conservatives" have already posted. Get a clue. Even Tex is getting the hell out of your way. You're like Lyndon Larouche all over the place and crazy as all get out.
But you're a nice guy, I'm sure, so don't take it personally. Aside from your politics, you're probably a great guy to have a beer with. After all that's what they said about Bush before he started torturing, killing, and dismantling this country for everything it was worth. Remember, he was a uniter who reached accross the isles, the papers said. OK, yeah, good for a laugh. Politics make strange bed fellows, they say, but in this case you don't want to be hobnobbing with that crowd, however cozy it may feel under that blanket. Trust me, you really don't. Four years from now those kinds people will be dismissed as absolute loons.
What does reversing labels do?
That just creates a statement that makes NO sense.
Of course when you turn things around it makes NO sense, because its the liberals and their failed policies that have gotten us into this mess.
Libertarians tend to favor conservatives. Why?
BECAUSE THEY TEND TO KEEP THEIR HANDS OUT OF OUR POCKETS.
Oh, they want to stick their nose into our bedroom, but that is managable.
Liberals not only want to tell you what to think and how to act, they want to spend YOUR
MONEY in the process.
Pelosi already has "hate" speech and a revival of bills killing talk radio in place ready to go.
But my main problem with "liberals", besides their collectivist bent and their habit of spending MY money on BS, is their total and absolute HATRED of FREEDOM.
They are scrad to be free, so they dont want to be, which is fine,
but I enjoy MY freedom, and I INTEND TO HANG ONTO IT .
aS FOR THE NEW "LIBERAL GUARD" you think so much of, well, a picture is worth a thousand words.
welcome to the future
:1:
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1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
It's posts like this that make me wish that I was a left wing Liberal. I feel embarrassed to call myself a conservative after this.:mad5:
THE CONSERVATIVES probably arent too happy about it either.
If you're "conservative" Obama is george washington.
And like I said, I wouldnt be called a "conservative".
A country with a two party system is impossible, what you wind up with is a one party
country with each "party" a wing of the one BIG party, lets call it the demopublican
party.
DOESNT matter who you voted for, its all a scam.
Witness Obamanations choice of a cabinet, mostly Clinton rethreads and Bush castoffs.
They are going to do what the real masters want, only diff between republicrat and democan is that if you elect a "republican" things will go a little slower, with a "democrat"
a little faster.
We are headed to hell in a rollercoaster no matter what, just with obamanation the brakes
been ripped off and thrown over the side.
Ron paul was the only very slight chance to save things, and political opposistion
would probably have prevented THAT.
So here is your collectivist paradise, enjoy it.
The year or so that it lasts, anyway.
This country used to be strong enough to surrvive a liberal administration, but thanks
to Clinton repealing the glass stegal act(resulting in the current mess) and both parties shipping our industry overseas the last twenty years or so, its doubtfull that we will make it through 4 years with a radical left winger at the helm.
Yeah, a big sale on guns and ammo , for TWO reasons .
ONE, the liberals are going to ban em as soon as possible, regardless of what they say.
TWO...you live in America...YOUR GONNA NEED TO BE PACKING.:1:
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It's all good now, Jack Bower is back!
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I've always liked Heckler & Koch.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
But my main problem with "liberals"... is their total and absolute HATRED of FREEDOM.
This longtime mantra of the conservatives has always baffled me, considering the conservatives' collective positions on "family values".
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Both parties "mantra" baffle me, I just try to make the best choice of what we have to deal with. For instance, I can't understand how a liberal will chain themselves to a tree or fight to save a whale or something but think it's alright to kill a fetus.
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1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
It's all good now, Jack Bower is back!
Ja.
Attachment 4877
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That's easy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
Both parties "mantra" baffle me, I just try to make the best choice of what we have to deal with. For instance, I can't understand how a liberal will chain themselves to a tree or fight to save a whale or something but think it's alright to kill a fetus.
We've got too few trees and whales and too many fetuses.
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1 Attachment(s)
Me too
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsticks
I've always liked Heckler & Koch.
H&K MG4E
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MP5 variant in these parts.
I'm in a heavily crowded urban area; I need accuracy over distance...
http://www.rbgungraphics.com/mpfivesixincolor.gif
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Pix, I was trying to point out that labels are just generalizations and that it doesn't matter which way the finger is pointing. But you are far from being a libertarian, my friend, because if you were, you wouldn't be so cozy with the conservatives. What they've done to our liberties in these last 8 years pales in comparison to what any Democratic administration has ever been able to pull out of a hat. And it isn't just family values, either. I guess you forgot about listening in on our phone conversations and emails. I guess that whole bit about Cheney being above the law wasn't a big deal to you? Arresting, rendering, and torturing American citizens doesn't make you wonder, either? I guess an administration that seeks to alter scientific research is OK? Or maybe you like the fact that Bush confers with a higher power before making decisions?
Jeez, you're a Palin-loving conservative. I've know many libertarians, been impressed by the platform many times, and I certainly agree with some of what they profess, but you Pix, are not a libertarian by any stretch. Toting a gun doesn't make you one, either.
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1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflier
Pix, I was trying to point out that labels are just generalizations and that it doesn't matter which way the finger is pointing. But you are far from being a libertarian, my friend, because if you were, you wouldn't be so cozy with the conservatives. What they've done to our liberties in these last 8 years pales in comparison to what any Democratic administration has ever been able to pull out of a hat. And it isn't just family values, either. I guess you forgot about listening in on our phone conversations and emails. I guess that whole bit about Cheney being above the law wasn't a big deal to you? Arresting, rendering, and torturing American citizens doesn't make you wonder, either? I guess an administration that seeks to alter scientific research is OK? Or maybe you like the fact that Bush confers with a higher power before making decisions?
Jeez, you're a Palin-loving conservative. I've know many libertarians, been impressed by the platform many times, and I certainly agree with some of what they profess, but you Pix, are not a libertarian by any stretch. Toting a gun doesn't make you one, either.
I dont tote a gun, havent owned one since I quit the force.
And libertarians are not able to run things now, conservatives are a lesser poison.
Its simply a matter of damage, do you know just how much chaos liberals will
cause this country in four years?
And yes I am a libertarian, a Harry Brown Ayn Rand Milton freidman ron PAUL
libertarian.
AND I didnt come to this lightly.
I felt that this philosophy was a good fit for years, but after reading about objectivism
everything just rang true.
Legalize freeedom...
VOTE
libertarian
:1:
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1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
But, facts would mean using one's eyes rather than filtering everything through a looking glass! :cool:
Funny how the right-wing meme getting pushed right now is that the New Deal was a failure, and that the U.S. economy just kept stumbling along until Pearl Harbor. The facts are that the stock market quadrupled between the 1932 and 1937, and even after losing half of its value in 1938, the market rebounded back to more than triple its 1932 value in the years before 1942.
http://stockcharts.com/charts/historical/djia1900.html
And if you use GDP as a measuring stick of economic activity, here too the size of the U.S. economy more than doubled between 1932 and 1941 in constant dollars. The New Deal basically saved capitalism from itself, and paved the way for massive economic growth in the postwar years. Yet, these right wing hacks keep ignoring the failures of their own neo-Hooverist agenda just so they preach the bankrupt mantra of top-heavy tax cuts and deregulation one more time.
http://www.measuringworth.org/usgdp/
give it up.
EVEN liberal economists agree that the "new deal" was a total failure.
Hoover was a failure also, but that was just because letting the free market work would
have been impossible in a country hindered by a central bank.
Yes the "new" deal was a total failure.
AND THE "NEW NEW DEAL" WILL BE THE SAME.
GREAT thing about you liberals, you keep trying something no matter how often it FAILS:1:
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You exceed yourself
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
give it up.
EVEN liberal economists agree that the "new deal" was a total failure.
...
Apparently NOT. You exceed even your usual self in obsinate denial and foolishness.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
give it up.
EVEN liberal economists agree that the "new deal" was a total failure.
Hoover was a failure also, but that was just because letting the free market work would
have been impossible in a country hindered by a central bank.
Yes the "new" deal was a total failure.
AND THE "NEW NEW DEAL" WILL BE THE SAME.
GREAT thing about you liberals, you keep trying something no matter how often it FAILS:1:
Yeah, and you so-called "libertarians" (i.e., Repubs too embarrassed to admit their party affiliation) keep lapping up the GOP talking points that Rush, Hannity, Billo, the Weiner Nation, et al spoon feed you. Just because you hear something in a right-wing echo chamber doesn't mean that it translates to the real world.
Right, the New Deal was a "total failure" even though the economy more than doubled and the stock market more than tripled in the years after the programs were initially implemented. Yeah, we should be so lucky as to live in your free market fantasyland where people can lose their life savings when a bank fails, the stock market has no rules or oversight, seniors have no other subsistence if their 401k or pension fund collapses, and people who get disabled and can no longer work are just left on the streets to fend for themselves. Face it, the New Deal saved capitalism from itself by stabilizing a situation that could've easily spiraled out of control and given rise to the kind of conflicts between extremist groups that plagued Europe during the 1930s. Or do you think that we should have just let fascism take hold? Because that's what happens when corporate power merges with state power.
And now you're claiming that Keynesians are calling the New Deal a "total failure" (guys like Paul Krugman only gripe about it because they feel it did not go far enough, hardly a "total failure")? :rolleyes: Better check what you got on that last WalMart drug run, you ain't thinkin' straight (nothing new, but this is out of bounds even by your diminished standards) :out:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
THE CONSERVATIVES probably arent too happy about it either.
If you're "conservative" Obama is george washington.
And like I said, I wouldnt be called a "conservative".
A country with a two party system is impossible, what you wind up with is a one party
country with each "party" a wing of the one BIG party, lets call it the demopublican
party.
DOESNT matter who you voted for, its all a scam.
Witness Obamanations choice of a cabinet, mostly Clinton rethreads and Bush castoffs.
They are going to do what the real masters want, only diff between republicrat and democan is that if you elect a "republican" things will go a little slower, with a "democrat"
a little faster.
We are headed to hell in a rollercoaster no matter what, just with obamanation the brakes
been ripped off and thrown over the side.
Ron paul was the only very slight chance to save things, and political opposistion
would probably have prevented THAT.
So here is your collectivist paradise, enjoy it.
The year or so that it lasts, anyway.
This country used to be strong enough to surrvive a liberal administration, but thanks
to Clinton repealing the glass stegal act(resulting in the current mess) and both parties shipping our industry overseas the last twenty years or so, its doubtfull that we will make it through 4 years with a radical left winger at the helm.
Yeah, a big sale on guns and ammo , for TWO reasons .
ONE, the liberals are going to ban em as soon as possible, regardless of what they say.
TWO...you live in America...YOUR GONNA NEED TO BE PACKING.:1:
You live in a very dark scary world, don't you?:frown2: :out:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
You live in a very dark scary world, don't you?:frown2: :out:
That's what happens when you cheap out on everything, including your prescription meds. :out:
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No pictures for you Pix, but I do have questions...
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
And libertarians are not able to run things now, conservatives are a lesser poison.
Libertarians aren't able to run things? Is that because "libertarianism" is fundamentally flawed? And you prefer "conservatives" to "libertarians"? Well then why not just call yourself a "republican" and be done with it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
do you know just how much chaos liberals will cause this country in four years?
Enlighten me. But first, tell me who the evil "liberals" are that you're talking about. Obama? After the cabinet he cobbled together?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
And yes I am a libertarian, a Harry Brown Ayn Rand Milton freidman ron PAUL libertarian.
Ahem, I doubt Ron Paul would be so cozy with Brown or Rand. Let's remember some of the gems of his campaign: eliminate the IRS, using gold as legal tender instead of cash, abolishing the federal reserve, close the border with Mexico (note, not Canada), criminalize all undocumented immigrants (wonder who's going to pick his strawberries), and global warming is just a cyclical thing that humans may marginally contribute to. Look, I appreciated his position on Iraq, but the rest of the platform was way off from contemporary mainstream thinking on the issues. Most scientists, economists, politicians, and academics considered him pretty loony, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
I felt that this philosophy was a good fit for years, but after reading about objectivism everything just rang true.
This is a rather evasive statement. Are you a "libertarian" or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
EVEN liberal economists agree that the "new deal" was a total failure.
Really, what "liberal" economist said that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
Yes the "new" deal was a total failure.
How so? I'd say it went pretty well once it got under way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
AND THE "NEW NEW DEAL" WILL BE THE SAME.
These are different times, different relationships exist between banking, corporations, and government. New institutions (many of them products of New Deal thinking, by the way) are now in place such as the SEC, GAO, and others, that did not exist in the 1930s. And then there's the whole WWII and Cold War thing, which despite Bush/Rummy/Cheney's best efforts, will probably not recur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
GREAT thing about you liberals, you keep trying something no matter how often it FAILS
I'm still not clear on what you mean by "liberals." Can you tell me who they are so I can tell them you said that?
And if by "liberals" you mean Democrats, then it may be a sore point for you to have to remember that Democratic administrations nearly always resulted in better economic growth than Republican ones. As a matter of fact, Republicans have always been the ones to plunder the coffers while Democrats tend to bring things back in line with something that actually works for most Americans. Ironic considering the Republican mantra about fighting tax-and-spend-Democrats, don't you think? You don't have to take my word for it, just read your history book, if you have one, that is. If not, there's this socialist institution called a library that you may have to make use of.
You see Pix, I think your recollection of history is a bit off. If anything, it's just not as black & white as you would like it to be. Labels like "conservatives" and "liberals" are a bit hard to pin on any one person or group. Is Obama really a "liberal"? Is Ron Paul really a "republican"? Or a "libertarian"? In the end, they are just generalizations that do little to help us understand what you're really saying. As a matter of fact, I still don't know what you are. My guess is that you're a "republican" but obviously you don't care for their interest in what goes on in your bedroom, bank account, or online activities. In the end, the labels you try to pin on people you disagree with in this forum, are just incendiary vitriol substituting for nonexistent talking points.
Disagree? Go ahead, then, answer my questions.
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In all this "liberal", "conservative", "Democrat", "Republican", "Libertarian" discussion, doesn't anybody realise that in all this name-calling there isn't one mention of the possibility that all of these labels fail to address the simple fact that no-one is truly "Liberal" or "Conservative", but All of the Above?
This is the way news is made, boys and girls, and this is the fodder most of us watch when the telly or radio is turned on. The Right rails against the Left, the Left launches a salvo to the Right....It's all Bull**** and you know it! In reality, there is no "Liberal Agenda" or "Conservative Blueprint", it's all window dressing that obscures the plain, banal fact that we are "led" by an elite that is in service of Power and Money.
Geeze, guys!
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A retired cop that doesn't own a gun, there's something wrong with that picture.
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