Vertical center channel

[Mr Peabody]

I've been meaning to bring this topic up again for a while and a few guys giving Harley grief over his center brought it back to mind. I mainly wanted to see how many have experimented with center placement and what your results may have been.

My t2.1 fits horizontally on a shelf below my TV. As a side note it actually sounds better there than it did on top of my old RPTV, I think because below is closer to the level of the mains. Remember a short time back I bought a Klipsch Academy center, it did not fit on the shelf, so I thought what a good time to see how this vertical thing works. It worked very well. I was wondering if it was just the ability of the Academy or the placement. When I put the Dyn's back into place the t2.1 stood vertical and not back on the shelf. The t2.1 sounded better like that, vertically. I think some of it is to do with not being on a shelf and vertical is still even closer to the level of the mains. I'm sure to some extent it has to do with the drawbacks of horizontal placement as well. Just a couple of noticeable improvements the sound from the center was more open and dialog was easier to understand. In case any one wonders I did recalibrate when the Dyn's were put back into place, with the vertical center placement. If I could find a rubber block or something to get the center off the floor I'm sure the improvement would be even better. If my center goes much higher though it will be intruding on the screen. I could afford a couple inches though if I can find the right product or improvise.

[pixelthis]

The only reason centers are wide is to spread the sound out over the length of the
TV screen.
Might sound better on end, because more high freq signals would be shooting towards you
(they are highly directional). I WOULDN'T BLOCK THE SCREEN, even a tad.

[kelsci]

I have never tried a D'Appolito speaker center channel in that manner. I always have had it vertical and it appears to sound correct in that manner for two reasons; one is speech because it emulates the verticalness of our mouths and second because it gives emphasis to the whole surround sound field. I have tried a two way(tweeter over woofer) set-up and I did not get the above results. My brother uses a Mirage Omnistat 5 channel system with one of the Omni's as a center channel. It appears to work well but I would really need to try one on my system to see if that would work better or worse than a D'App. In owning a few D'Apps, I noticed that some of them have two 4 ohm wooferswired in series and one that I have with two twelve ohm wired in parallel. The latter sounds not only better but correct in its phasing. The trouble is that you do not know what you are getting by looking at the speaker.as a whole till you open it up and test the DC resistance(many think this is not important but I assure you it is very important). Many years back, I made a 5 channel dynaquad system in my bedroom consisting of 5 Minimus 7s of which the center channel was one of them. I did get a rather extroadinary perfomance on dialog from dolby surround tracks but it would only work with the rear surrounds near my ceiling and on their sides to get the effect.

If you feel your soundfield is correct then continue doing what you are doing.

[eisforelectronic]

I use a standard bookshelf as a center speaker. I feel the single point source is actually more accurate than the wide dispersion pattern most centers seem to be designed for. I also think the only real reason centers are designed the way they are is just to make them easy to place below or above a tv.

[kelsci]

There is one kind of center channel speaker that I have not tried and that a very few manufacturers make. That is a vertical speaker but the woofer is in the center of the vertical and the tweeter is above it. I think the "box" design being vertical might play a role in center channel sound dispersement. The one good thing you know is that if you measure the dc resistance you should get something between 6 and 8 ohms that it will be in phase with the rest of your speakers.

[kelsci]

I hope this link works. This could be a very nice answer to the original problem

http://www.ohgizmo.com/2011/02/01/screendeck-a-shelf-for-your-tv-things/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Ohgizmo+%28OhGizmo!%29

[Woochifer]

Basically, the horizontal center speaker with the WTW driver arrangement is a compromise that dates back to the CRT days. With a CRT taking up all that space in the middle, a horizontal speaker that could sit on top of a large TV cabinet was the lowest common denominator solution.

With wall-mounted HDTVs, it's now possible to use three identical speakers across the entire front. That's the ideal solution. Tilting a WTW center speaker vertical is yet another compromise. If it sounds better than the horizontal position, then fine. But, it's still less than optimal.

[Tarheel_]

With wall-mounted HDTVs, it's now possible to use three identical speakers across the entire front. That's the ideal solution.

BINGO...that is the ideal solution. I use a monitor that timbre matches my mains and it works great.
Buy 3 identical speakers if you are able.

[Hyfi]

Before I got my new VTI racks, I had no place for the center so I stood it up vertical between the front right and entertainment cabinet I was using. I placed it on top of a 4" thick Granite Toolmakers Surface Plate which was angled up from the floor so the line of sound was directed at the sweet spot and ear level. Other than issues with my old DVD player where the surround usually drowned out the dialog, it worked out fine.

[pixelthis]

BINGO...that is the ideal solution. I use a monitor that timbre matches my mains and it works great.
Buy 3 identical speakers if you are able.

The "ideal" solution is a speaker that can stand up or lay flat. SEVERAL companies
make these, like B&W used to(don't know if they do anymore).
HEARD these once and they sounded great. If you have three conventional speakers
there will be placement problems, usually, unless you mount your flat panel too high,
or use a "talk thru" projector screen. And if you have a DLP like Mr P, A FLAT, wide center is
a must, and still will be a compromise to place.

[Tarheel_]

The "ideal" solution is a speaker that can stand up or lay flat. SEVERAL companies
make these, like B&W used to(don't know if they do anymore).
HEARD these once and they sounded great. If you have three conventional speakers
there will be placement problems, usually, unless you mount your flat panel too high,
or use a "talk thru" projector screen. And if you have a DLP like Mr P, A FLAT, wide center is
a must, and still will be a compromise to place.

It is my understanding that 3 identical speakers produce the best/most realistic sound for HT as there are placement issues no matter what type of speaker you choose. Problem is, as you mentioned, most cannot accommodate this setup.
In a perfect room, if you have front tower speakers then the center should also be the same tower speaker.
I think you can go one step further and suggest the rear speakers should also be towers and all speakers set to = LARGE.

At least this is what i've gathered over the years from this board.

[Woochifer]

It is my understanding that 3 identical speakers produce the best/most realistic sound for HT as there are placement issues no matter what type of speaker you choose. Problem is, as you mentioned, most cannot accommodate this setup.
In a perfect room, if you have front tower speakers then the center should also be the same tower speaker.

Yep, I think that people have been so conditioned over the past decade that center speakers are supposed to be horizontal that they forgot why that compromised alignment was developed in the first place (i.e., to sit on top of a bulky CRT cabinet). With the emergence of flat panel TVs, you now have so many more placement options available.

Three identical speakers up front has been the ideal alignment for reproducing the front soundstage since the original Bell Labs psychoacoustical research came to that conclusion in the 1930s. It's why movie theaters use three identical screen speakers, and why mixing studios use three identical monitors up front.

I think you can go one step further and suggest the rear speakers should also be towers and all speakers set to = LARGE.

Positioning a pair of rear tower speakers in the same horizontal plane as the front speakers would not be ideal in many (if not most) instances. With movie soundtracks (particularly with 2.0 surround sources), you still have a lot of ambient cues, and a rear tower speaker at ear level would sound more like a local point source, leaving a gap in the soundfield.

With those ambient cues, you want some degree of diffusion. That's why Dolby has recommended positioning the surrounds about 2' above ear level and pointed directly at one another.

OTOH, with multichannel music, having everything at the same horizontal plane and pointed directly into the seated position will give you the optimal imaging effect. But, the source has to be mixed with deliberate imaging cues in the surrounds and mains, and that's not always the case.

With my setup, I elevate the surrounds about 18" above ear level and point them directly at one another. For me, that provides just enough diffusion for Pro Logic sources and more ambient 5.1 mixes, and great pinpoint imaging with more surround-optimized 5.1 soundtracks.

[Feanor]

A few years ago I made my first (and sadly only) DIY speaker, a low-profile centre channel. Looks like this ...



But I avoided the MTM approach which tends to limit side-to-side dispersion of the mid-frequencies. (Nowadays this center sits under my 50' plasma.)

I agree that you get better results having all speakers on the same horizontal plain (as much as possible). Vance Dickason was very adamant about this in his Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, (5th ed.).

[Tarheel_]

A few years ago I made my first (and sadly only) DIY speaker, a low-profile centre channel. Looks like this ...



But I avoided the MTM approach which tends to limit side-to-side dispersion of the mid-frequencies. (Nowadays this center sits under my 50' plasma.)

I agree that you get better results having all speakers on the same horizontal plain (as much as possible). Vance Dickason was very adamant about this in his Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, (5th ed.).

wow, very nice speaker.

[Woochifer]

But I avoided the MTM approach which tends to limit side-to-side dispersion of the mid-frequencies. (Nowadays this center sits under my 50' plasma.)

I agree that you get better results having all speakers on the same horizontal plain (as much as possible). Vance Dickason was very adamant about this in his Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, (5th ed.).

The D'Appolito arrangement indeed leaves a lot to be desired if the L and R speakers don't follow suit. The best horizontal center speaker I've ever heard (in terms of how well it matches with the mains and blends the front soundstage seamlessly) came from Vandersteen, which uses a coaxial design.

BINGO...that is the ideal solution. I use a monitor that timbre matches my mains and it works great.
Buy 3 identical speakers if you are able.

I would add that movie theaters and mixing stages all use three identical speakers up front. The horizontal center speaker is purely a home-based creation bourne out of aesthetic and functional concerns, rather than optimal performance.

[eisforelectronic]

It takes up a lot of space, but this center sounds great.

[harley .guy07]

Yeah it was kind of a weird deal that everyone was busting my B#lls over my center channel when in most cases a center is only needed when you are not in the sweet spot and for that matter a vertical speaker for center channel use is the preferred way to go anyway so if i did change my center I might try to find a Dynaudio audience bookshelf speaker that I can use to a center but for now my Yamaha does sound much better than people give it credit for without hearing it.