Using non-HDMI receiver with HDMI Projector and Blu-Ray

[amarmistry]

Hi Folks
I started out with hopes of getting a set of receiver, Blu Ray, set of 5.1 speakers (with front floor standers) and a projector for my basement. However, with the speed with which home theater gear is evolving and the fact that I happened to get little short supplied on the 'greens', I have decided to utilize my existing receiver/speakers in basement.

So I guess I will be getting projector and Blu Ray only. The question I have is following, and depending upon the answers/suggestions/advise/recommendation will help me decide if I should go forward with the whole new gear or just new projector and Blu Ray.

My existing HK Receiver (its actually HK CP35 HTiB for which I did a rookie review for, 4 yrs ago on audioreview.com at http://www.audioreview.com/cat/home-...0_4281crx.aspx )

This is a non-HDMI receiver. So I am thinking of getting a Blu Ray player and connecting it directly to my yet-to-arrive projector via HDMI cable bypassing the receiver. Would this give me same video performace had I had a Blu Ray connected to my projector via HDMI capable receiver? Also, if I did that, how do I channel the sound from Blu Ray to all my speakers via receiver?

Thank you

[Mr Peabody]

Theoretically, you could even get slightly better performance by going direct to Projector but most likely not much visible difference as long as the receiver had good video circuits for the signal to pass through. So, what I'm saying is there is absolutely no problem going with your video directly to projector. This may be a long run so be sure to get a cable of quality.
At least a: www.bluejeanscable.com

You would use either optical or coaxial digital audio from Blu-ray to receiver. You will still get slightly better sound from Blu-ray discs but you will not be able to utilize the HD audio formats (Dolby Tru-HD/DTS-MA) as they can only pass via HDMI.

Your set up could be prone to sync issues where the audio is slightly out of sync with the video. Hopefully not, but the set up would at least let you use the HK until saving up for an upgrade.

[GMichael]

Does your receiver have analog audio 5.1 in?
Does your BR player have analog audio 5.1 out?
If so, you could still get the HD audio formats. If not, then the optical or coaxial digital audio from Blu-ray to receiver will sound great as Mr. P pointed out.

The HDMI to projector works perfectly.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Does your receiver have analog audio 5.1 in?
Does your BR player have analog audio 5.1 out?
If so, you could still get the HD audio formats. If not, then the optical or coaxial digital audio from Blu-ray to receiver will sound great as Mr. P pointed out.

The HDMI to projector works perfectly.

The only problem with going separate routes for audio and video, is syncing issues which are a huge problem. HDMI uses a word clock to line sync the video and audio. If you have the video passing through the clock without the audio, they will get out of sync very quickly, and there is no way to accurately correct it. If you use the analog in's, you should use the component ins at the projector as well.

[pixelthis]

The only problem with going separate routes for audio and video, is syncing issues which are a huge problem. HDMI uses a word clock to line sync the video and audio. If you have the video passing through the clock without the audio, they will get out of sync very quickly, and there is no way to accurately correct it. If you use the analog in's, you should use the component ins at the projector as well.

An interesting "problem", as its one I have never run into, nor has anyone else that I have heard of.
USING HDMI connection directly, with the coax or toslink digital out for audio will work fine, I did it for a year until I upgraded to a receiver with HDMI switching.
TALKY loves to brag about his special built stuff, probably where his problems(outside of his personality) comes from.
But for those of us who buy our gear in a store, its a non problem.
And most receivers have video sync just in case you do have problems.
But I had more problems with DVD audio sync.

[Tarheel_]

The only problem with going separate routes for audio and video, is syncing issues which are a huge problem. HDMI uses a word clock to line sync the video and audio. If you have the video passing through the clock without the audio, they will get out of sync very quickly, and there is no way to accurately correct it. If you use the analog in's, you should use the component ins at the projector as well.

This could really be an issue for me...

I'm about to purchase a Samsung c6500 and use the analog audio outs to my older HK receiver and I currently run HDMI to the projector (50').

Should i go with component cable, will i lose any video detail from the blu-ray movie? Projector is 720p.
How about upconverting my older DVD movies...will i lose the upconversion?

[Tarheel_]

This could really be an issue for me...

I'm about to purchase a Samsung c6500 and use the analog audio outs to my older HK receiver and I currently run HDMI to the projector (50').

Should i go with component cable, will i lose any video detail from the blu-ray movie? Projector is 720p.
How about upconverting my older DVD movies...will i lose the upconversion?

So, i've searched online and found some answers to my own questions...

it seems:
- blu-ray can send 720p or 1080i over component cables.
- blu-ray cannot upconvert standard DVDs over component cables.

I have a HD DVD and Denon SD DVD players so i can use those to upconvert via HDMI and run component cable from the blu-ray player to projector (if i run into sync issues).

[pixelthis]

So, i've searched online and found some answers to my own questions...

it seems:
- blu-ray can send 720p or 1080i over component cables.
- blu-ray cannot upconvert standard DVDs over component cables.

I have a HD DVD and Denon SD DVD players so i can use those to upconvert via HDMI and run component cable from the blu-ray player to projector (if i run into sync issues).

You wont.
BTW an upconverted DVD can look good, but you don't get any extra resolution from
upconverting one.
I wouldnt worry about the Denon or HD player, it would be a lot simpler and elegant just to use the BLU for everything.
I have never heard of the inability to run upconverted DVD over component, but then again I HAVE NEVER USED component for BLU.
Run the HDMI to the projector, its your best connection, with a visible improvement
over component.
Don't be scared by a certain troll and his imaginary "sync" issues.
I used an Integra 7.4(five years old) and several BLU players over a year, sending
the HDMI TO my monitor, and the audio to the receiver from the player, by either coax
(preferred) or optical, and never had any problems.
Plan on it not happening, and in the unlikely even it does, deal with it then.
WAIT UNTIL ITS A PROBLEM, before you compromise your system over it.

[Mr Peabody]

Pix, I'm sure Sir T will check you but until then, you are wrong. First of all how would the receiver's sync function work when the video wouldn't even pass through it? In earlier receivers there were sync issues in some with just using digital audio and video into the same receiver. If you've never had the problem you have been lucky. I have been lucky as well but the fact that some have sync issues, is just that, a fact. Whether the OP will have sync issues is something that may or may not happen but I'd say the longer the video run the more likely sync will be an issue. In the OP's set up the video and audio will be taking totally separate paths.

[pixelthis]

Pix, I'm sure Sir T will check you but until then, you are wrong. First of all how would the receiver's sync function work when the video wouldn't even pass through it? In earlier receivers there were sync issues in some with just using digital audio and video into the same receiver. If you've never had the problem you have been lucky. I have been lucky as well but the fact that some have sync issues, is just that, a fact. Whether the OP will have sync issues is something that may or may not happen but I'd say the longer the video run the more likely sync will be an issue. In the OP's set up the video and audio will be taking totally separate paths.

THE VIDEO would'nt need to pass through.
You adjust the sync until the audio and video are syncronized.
But I have never had to use it.
Its an audio adjustment, and was born from the fact that DVD audio and video
sometimes was off.

[Mr Peabody]

How well that analog hook up will work will depend on how much speaker set up controls the Samsung BDP has. The analog will bypass your receiver's internal settings so you have to set speaker level, delay, bass management etc inside the BDP.

[Tarheel_]

How well that analog hook up will work will depend on how much speaker set up controls the Samsung BDP has. The analog will bypass your receiver's internal settings so you have to set speaker level, delay, bass management etc inside the BDP.

HK is somewhat unique as it has 4 different settings for the 6 and 8 channel direct inputs (originally for DVD-A / SACD). I can use them to apply bass management if the Samsung lacks. Still may lack for speaker settings, etc.

This is from the manual:
The 8 CH DIRECT INPUT should
be used when an input is connected to all eight
8-Channel Direct Inputs and when the
input source device has its own internal bass
management system. This input passes the input
from the source directly through to the volume
control without any analog to digital conversion
and it mutes the unused input jacks to prevent
unwanted noise from interfering with system
performance.
 The 8 CH DVD AUDIO input should
be used when an input is connected to all eight
8-Channel Direct Inputs and the input
source device does NOT have its own internal
bass management system. When this input is in
use the analog source is converted to digital so
that you may use the same Triple Crossover bass
management options for the direct input as you
do with all other outputs. This input also mutes
the unused input jacks to prevent unwanted noise
from interfering with system performance.

[Mr Peabody]

That's a cool feature for analog DVD. The only bad thing the signal is originally digital, then converted to analog, then back to digital, then back to analog. That's a lot of manipulation. Still probably a better way to go than using the bare bones adjust provided by the BDP.

[amarmistry]

Thanks everyone for responding. I will have to re-read what you all suggested.

At this point of time, I am really on fence as what to do. May be I can leave my existing setup in FR and get the whole new gear for my basement when I have my budget. Now that a lot of manufacturers are coming up with new stuff. Pioneer is going to announce new entry level Elite HDMI 1.4 capable receivers by end of June and higher end model sometimes in mid-July. Panasonic will hopefully have new projectors in September. Not sure if I want to wait that long, and not that Projectors would/could be 3D capable anyway!

P.S. Forego a Pioneer Elite SC25 for $850-all inclusive. It was 'too much' of a receiver for me.

[Tarheel_]

That's a cool feature for analog DVD. The only bad thing the signal is originally digital, then converted to analog, then back to digital, then back to analog. That's a lot of manipulation. Still probably a better way to go than using the bare bones adjust provided by the BDP.

Mr. P...yep, that is a lot of conversions. Never really thought it through...not the best solution, but guess it works in a pinch. Looking at the blu's manual it provides speaker size, but no bass management...so maybe they can work together. Either way it sounds like i need to do some experimenting. Saving money is never easy.

Since i'm sending the newer audio formats from blu-ray to my AVR via analog 7.1 outs..does this mean 1 less conversion? I'm not good at this stuff.

[kevlarus]

Since i'm sending the newer audio formats from blu-ray to my AVR via analog 7.1 outs..does this mean 1 less conversion? I'm not good at this stuff.

Sending analog from the blu player to the receiver, the receiver should not do anything other than volume to the speakers. It's already analog so it shouldn't need to convert it to anything, since that would defeat the purpose of analog in. If you check the receiver manual, it should say that if you use these 7.1 ins, you don't get to apply any "surroung effects" etc. on the signals.

[pixelthis]

Sending analog from the blu player to the receiver, the receiver should not do anything other than volume to the speakers. It's already analog so it shouldn't need to convert it to anything, since that would defeat the purpose of analog in. If you check the receiver manual, it should say that if you use these 7.1 ins, you don't get to apply any "surroung effects" etc. on the signals.

Thats probably so in most cases, although some receivers send everything
through the digital board.
Why? The digital board is the only way to get a signal to the amp, it controls switching,
etc.
But even if thats the case, the effect should be minimal.

[kevlarus]

Thats probably so in most cases, although some receivers send everything
through the digital board.
Why? The digital board is the only way to get a signal to the amp, it controls switching,
etc.
But even if thats the case, the effect should be minimal.

Didn't realize some receivers did that. For mine, I found this tidbit...

multichannel sources that you can set to bypass all digital conversion and processing

I automatically figured the 7.1 MC would bypass any conversion. Apparently not.. or at least, depends on what you're using.

[amarmistry]

Also if I add more video source that is HDMI capable, it'd get increasingly difficult to direct them all to my projector. Unless there is some kind of HDMI Y splitter or a HDMI switch available to take multiple input and sends one output to a projector(but wait just a minute, isn't that called a receiver?)

[Tarheel_]

Also if I add more video source that is HDMI capable, it'd get increasingly difficult to direct them all to my projector. Unless there is some kind of HDMI Y splitter or a HDMI switch available to take multiple input and sends one output to a projector(but wait just a minute, isn't that called a receiver?)

this recalls the 70s and 80s when you actually had to get up and change the channel. Since if have 3 HDMI sources and one projector, i'm forced to move the cable around. One caveat, the Denon DVD player positions the HDMI cable inverted from the other 2...tough feat in the dark when carrying a buzzzz.

Not too bad though as i mostly watch hockey/directv movies in the HT room..no big deal, but losing the the newer audio formats via HDMI sucks!

amarmistry, you can always get a HDMI switcher from monoprice...cheap, but then again i'm cheap and i'm hoping to add a separate amp before springing for a newer AVR or switcher. Guess that is the audiophile in me.

[Mr Peabody]

Tarheel, the MC analog is more conversions but it is far better to be able to control the input signal the way your HK does than to rely on very basic adjustments provided by BDP's. That's a good thing HK provided.

[Mr Peabody]

kevlarus, you may have missed a post. You are correct that MC analog typically bypasses the processing portion of a receiver because as you say it's already analog and decoded. However, the HK receiver being used by the OP will take the MC analog and convert it back to digital in order to apply speaker setting (ie delay, volume, bass management). This is actually a good thing because most Blu-ray players are weak in set up options. The down side would be the extra conversions but it's the lesser of two evils in this situation. If I remember correctly I think the feature can be turned off if wanting a direct analog feed.

[Tarheel_]

If I remember correctly I think the feature can be turned off if wanting a direct analog feed.

You are correct sir...here is the portion of the manual...glad i have these features.

The 8 CH DIRECT INPUT should
be used when an input is connected to all eight
8-Channel Direct Inputs and when the
input source device has its own internal bass
management system. This input passes the input
from the source directly through to the volume
control without any analog to digital conversion
and it mutes the unused input jacks to prevent
unwanted noise from interfering with system
performance.

more from the manual:
6-Channel/8-Channel Direct Input
• There are four input choices available for use with
sources such as a DVD-Audio or SACD player that are
connected to the 8-Channel Direct Inputs .
Select the appropriate input according to the way your
system and source equipment is configured:

So, in my case, i want to use the 8 channel where i can apply settings and bass filtering. Nice. Learn something everyday

[kevlarus]

You are correct sir...here is the portion of the manual...glad i have these features.

The 8 CH DIRECT INPUT should
be used when an input is connected to all eight
8-Channel Direct Inputs and when the
input source device has its own internal bass
management system. This input passes the input
from the source directly through to the volume
control without any analog to digital conversion
and it mutes the unused input jacks to prevent
unwanted noise from interfering with system
performance.

more from the manual:
6-Channel/8-Channel Direct Input
• There are four input choices available for use with
sources such as a DVD-Audio or SACD player that are
connected to the 8-Channel Direct Inputs .
Select the appropriate input according to the way your
system and source equipment is configured:

So, in my case, i want to use the 8 channel where i can apply settings and bass filtering. Nice. Learn something everyday

Are you using a powered subwoofer and if so, do you have any control over what it does with the signal ?

ie, volume (dB level), crossover etc on the subwoofer itself as apposed to this being performed by the receiver ?

Mr. P is right, I did miss/forget the subject by the OP. Sometimes I get lost in the bog created by Sir and pixelization.

[Tarheel_]

Are you using a powered subwoofer and if so, do you have any control over what it does with the signal ?

ie, volume (dB level), crossover etc on the subwoofer itself as apposed to this being performed by the receiver ?

Mr. P is right, I did miss/forget the subject by the OP. Sometimes I get lost in the bog created by Sir and pixelization.

Yes, I have a powered 15" sub and the HK allows +/- db settings and crossover points for each input.