to upscale or not to upscale ?

[ex-28]

i ahve a 50" samsung dlp 1 month old , pols all around , i have a cheap - o - dvd player with progressive scan , i hook all video direct to my tv and audio all through reciver.

i was looking at buying a new dvd player , wit upscaleing
just so i could take advantage of the upscaling on it , as it will produce a better image quality,

now, i am buying a new reciver in 2 months , onkyo 803 which has component and hdmi video upscaling built into it, so am i wasting $150 by buying a dvd player with upscaling when the reciver will be capable of doing this anyways , but doing it this way i would have to have the video running through the reciver.

my thoughts are is that the dvd player would upscale it better then the reciver would
but then it gonna cost $150 cad more ,,


just wondering on what everyonhes ideas are on thes mater and any info is greatlly appreciated,

ex

[robert393]

IMO the less video switching the better. I don't like running the video signal through the reciever. It introduces video noise (resulting in a "softer" picture").

You have a nice DLP monitor, why not get a good P-Scan DVD player and connect it DIRECTLY to the monitor for best PQ? That would be my recommendation.

Robert

[L.J.]

I agree with Robert.


I'd run all my Video directly to my TV if possible.

[ex-28]

do i need upscaling on the dvd player then ? or jsut stick with progreaaisve scan ?

wondering if i will get a better picture with an upscaling dvd player

[L.J.]

do i need upscaling on the dvd player then ? or jsut stick with progreaaisve scan ?

wondering if i will get a better picture with an upscaling dvd player

You could always try it out. Decide for yourself if what you gain(or don't) is worth the extra cash.

I would just hold on to my existing player though. You said its P-Scan, so no doubt your getting a flawless picture already.

Unless your looking to get into SACD & DVD-A, save your self some money.

[ex-28]

ok thats what i was thinking, do p-scan players have an option to turn on and off the p-scan ?

[L.J.]

ok thats what i was thinking, do p-scan players have an option to turn on and off the p-scan ?

Yes, and it has to hooked up with at least component cables.

[bobsticks]

My experience with upscaling has largely been a positive one. I'm using an older samsung that, while obviously flawed, has definite benifits. You will find a significant increase in the sharpness of the picture, especially on that dlp.
Be aware that these things are rarely perfect and I had to go through three units to find one that didn't skew my colors. Also, once you get the right unit on a properly calibrated monitor, they are extraordinarily unforgiving of weak source material. Occasionally, I have been able to tell a director's afterthoughts or scenes shot with inferior film stock because of the pronounced differences.
All that having been said, the options for DVD-A/SACD are worth the cost alone and if the particular film of choice can't bare scrutiny just flip the upscaler off.

[evil__betty]

i am buying a new reciver in 2 months , onkyo 803 which has component and hdmi video upscaling built into it, so am i wasting $150 by buying a dvd player with upscaling when the reciver will be capable of doing this anyways , but doing it this way i would have to have the video running through the reciver.

FYI

The Onkyo 803 does not do HDMI upconversion, just HDMI switching - don't want you to be bummed out when you get it home only to realize it doen't do that.

[ex-28]

ok great for all the info all , i have a harmon kardon now , 3 yr old avr 210 but i'm not 100 5 happy with the sound output as i watch mostlly movies , so going to try out the onkyo,.

[ex-28]

Samsung DVD_HD850 dvd player picked up last week al ic an say is hello quality !

verry nice unit and no probs playing anything on it , jsut wish it woudl show time remaining on a disc.

My player , click me .

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Every review I have read concerning upscaling players has not really been very good. If you have a HD television, I would rely on that to upscale the DVD's 480P signal to the television native resolution. Or get an external scaler/video processor to do the upscaling chores. I am not sure that the protocol for HDMI is stable enough in its current form to use the HDMI inputs for upscale. Most reviewers have found that the HDMI output from upscaling DVD players either skewed the color, added noise, or presented no picture at all.

[edtyct]

Sir TT,

I respectfully disagree. Despite a few glitches here and there, a digital video feed is potentially the happiest complement to a digital display, and upscaling from a DVD player to a digital display can sometimes offer a few more lines of resolution than a TV's internal processing can (DVD players also tend to trump TVs when it comes to progressive signal processing as well via any connection). In rare cases, the HDMI handshake can fail, or the wrong color space might be sent to a DVI sink, but, on the whole, the HDMI video experience can be favorable. When DVI was introduced, it was much more problematical than HDMI, mainly because mfgrs hadn't worked out the kinks or figured out the difference between video black levels and computer black levels. The HDMI audio experience at this point is another matter altogether, however. Nonetheless, HDMI's superiority over component video is not assured in every case, and is usually not so dramatic that an upgrade to it is obligatory.

Ed

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir TT,

I respectfully disagree. Despite a few glitches here and there, a digital video feed is potentially the happiest complement to a digital display, and upscaling from a DVD player to a digital display can sometimes offer a few more lines of resolution than a TV's internal processing can (DVD players also tend to trump TVs when it comes to progressive signal processing as well via any connection). In rare cases, the HDMI handshake can fail, or the wrong color space might be sent to a DVI sink, but, on the whole, the HDMI video experience can be favorable. When DVI was introduced, it was much more problematical than HDMI, mainly because mfgrs hadn't worked out the kinks or figured out the difference between video black levels and computer black levels. The HDMI audio experience at this point is another matter altogether, however. Nonetheless, HDMI's superiority over component video is not assured in every case, and is usually not so dramatic that an upgrade to it is obligatory.

Ed

Ed,
You and I do not disagree about the potiential benefits of the HDMI connections, and the sucesses that have been out there. I am just pointing out that magazines such as hometheater, and sound and vision have reviewed upconverting DVD players and have not had the sucess that other folks have. While I do have a upconverting DVD player(don't really need it, I have a broadcast quality upconverter on my video switcher that ouputs everything in HDMI), the reviews I have read in those magazines have not been promising.

Some issues they have come up with;

No 5.1 sound from version 1.1
The inablilty to use the coaxial outputs for sound when the HDMI connection is used
Sometime no communications between brands of TV and certain upscaling DVD players
The only way to get the most out of this input is to wait until version 1.3 comes out.

[edtyct]

Points taken. HDMI 1.3 should eliminate most of the growing pains. I see the audio ones being more debilitating at the moment than the video ones, though anyone who's had problems getting his components to shake hands won't thank me for saying so.

How has your 975V held up? I liked that player a lot (especially as an SACD player), aside from its well-documented failures and its transmission of a faulty color space with upconverted material. Do you use its HDMI output even though you don't upconvert with it?

[Smokey]

Do i need upscaling on the dvd player then ? or jsut stick with progreaaisve scan ?

Wondering if I will get a better picture with an upscaling dvd player

If better picture interpreted as better resolution and quality, then the answer would be no. The highest resolution ouputed by DVD player max out at 480, and can not get better resolution even if upscaled to HD. IMO, just stick with progressive scan

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

How has your 975V held up? I liked that player a lot (especially as an SACD player), aside from its well-documented failures and its transmission of a faulty color space with upconverted material. Do you use its HDMI output even though you don't upconvert with it?

Yes I use it. I know this player has gotten pretty sour reviews, but I must have gotten a late production model becuase I didn't have any of the problems that have been mentioned about this player. It largely just outputs the signals with no processing, and lets the GV do all of the processing work. Since the GV is programmable card based, the DVD player's video characteristic can be analyzed, and processing used to compensate for its weaknesses, and output a signal of excellent quality. This process can be programmed onto a video card, along with the best suited algorythms for upconversion for the Toshiba 65" which allows it to capture both 1080i and 1080p output from the processor. The combo of the player and processor makes for a very beautiful upconverted DVD picture. What I cannot wait for is the 1080p signal from a Bluray disc!

[edtyct]

The Toshiba won't input 1080p, will it? Or does the processor convert all signals first to 1080p before sending them out at 1080i?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The Toshiba won't input 1080p, will it? Or does the processor convert all signals first to 1080p before sending them out at 1080i?

Out of the box the Toshiba will not do 1080p. However when I purchased my Grass Valley switcher, GV installed their own HDMI connection that essentially turns the Toshiba into just a display(removes all internal processing out of the chain), and enables it to display a 1080p image. . They say this allows them to program video cards that maximize the display characteristics of the Toshiba. I cannot tell you what they did techical wise to the RPTV, but the end result was astounding to these eyes. On test patterns it can resolved the full 1920x1080 test image with no problem. The difference before I got the GV and the new HDMI hookup and after is not subtle at all.

The thing I like most about the GV processor is that it analyzes the incoming signal, and applies only the amount of processing needed to present the Toshiba with the best quality signal. Some DVD's require alot of processing, some very little.

The whole process was pretty expensive, using up all of my video budget for this year, but it sure in the hell was worth every penny. I have not seen video quality this good outside a mastering facility.

[edtyct]

Sounds spectacular, this new pro monitor of yours. I assume that Grass Valley handles the broadcast hardware at your station. Just curious: Did anyone calibrate the monitor to pro specs? You've got to use your connections to score something in true 1080p, hot off the presses.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sounds spectacular, this new pro monitor of yours. I assume that Grass Valley handles the broadcast hardware at your station. Just curious: Did anyone calibrate the monitor to pro specs? You've got to use your connections to score something in true 1080p, hot off the presses.

LOL Ed, you are spot on ole chap, GV does all of the video processing in our station. My monitor was calibrated to the same standards as our video monitors in the master control room. It was those monitors that I saw how good uncompressed HD really looks.

This is the second RPTV I have had special work on. It seems that CRT's have a great deal of tweakability according to GV, and the technician I worked with said he is sorry to see CRT's go.

[Supamike]

FYI

The Onkyo 803 does not do HDMI upconversion, just HDMI switching - don't want you to be bummed out when you get it home only to realize it doen't do that.

Just curious... what's the benefit/point of HDMI if most people seem to think that video should go directly to the set and bypass the receiver?

[edtyct]

CRTs and LCoS are the only technologies that belong in a pro context. Do you guys use the Sony PVM-20L5 monitors in the studio? You really should have an open house so that people can see how good TV can look when attention is paid to the right details. Once people actually see HD, they have trouble resisting it. When enough people see how good HD, or anything else, can look with a properly driven monitor, maybe we can actually raise the bar.

[edtyct]

In rely to Supamike, it's not a huge deal, but the simplest signal path is generally the best one. Going directly to the monitor eliminates a certain potential for signal degradation or failure, though, unless an intermediary stage is really faulty, a digital connection isn't in as much jeopardy as an analog one. Receivers are relatively new to the HDMI game; TVs and DVD players beat them to the punch. The main point of HDMI is HDCP copy protection, but a happy by-product is that digital video can measure and look sharper than analog component. But sending HDMI audio to a TV makes little sense in the long run, since TVs don't do audio. The earliest version of HDMI managed only two channels, anyway, meaning that most people treated HDMI like DVI, running separate coaxial or optical cables to their sound systems from the source. Receivers and pre/pros with HDMI capability can make the connection a lot more valuable by cutting out the need for a separate audio cable, although sometimes HDMI still sends two-channel audio in multichannel contexts through a switcher connected to certain displays. If the handshake sends the wrong info, HDMI can fail to deliver what's expected (kind of like freemasons shaking hands the wrong way).

[Supamike]

Thanks... that helps. I'm not trying to hijack this post, it's just that I'm saving for a receiver and speakers right now (since folks here talked me out of the HTIB), and I'm just trying to get my arms around it all before I make a purchase. I've been told "HDMI is a must have", "HDMI is immature and isn't worth it", "you won't notice the difference between DVI and HDMI", "THX says a lot about receiver quality", "THX is a marketing gimmick"... and so on. Right now, HDMI means nothing to me since my TV doesn't have an HDMI port. However, I plan to purchase an HDTV set within the next 1-2 years, so I don't know whether to plan for the future, build for the present, wait another year, or what. lol! I think buying a car is easier...