Receivers vs. separates?

[GMichael]

My HT Club members and me. 3 people with a passion for the HT life and we speak regularly. Nothing formal and nothing other than guys trying to watch each others' back, provide support/help with new gear as needed, and helping to do research when it comes time to buy new gear.

As for the guy with the Yamaha, nothing personal and don't mean to be so opinionated about Yamaha vs Denon.

Like I mentioned in one of my posts, "it is all opinion". I just apologize for coming across as a jerk. In reading it now, I see your point!

No problem. Welcome to a link with lots of people with a passion for the HT life, and who speak regularly.

The Yamaha vs Denon thing has been beat to death on this forum. Both seem to have equal numbers of supporters. When I auditioned both I found that I liked both. There were small differences and I ended up liking the Yamaha a tini bit more. I have no regrets. It's a great unit. If I had bought the Denon I'm sure I's still have had no regrets. They make a class unit as well.

[Lexmark3200]

I have been following this thread with much eagerness and anticipation as it has provided a MASSIVE deal of information and insight from all of (us) who share this obsession and way of life that is home theater and/or home musical reproduction; fascinating observations are made here and I have to applaud Mr. G for beginning this thread as I was getting ready to do the same thing as I ponder over receivers vs. separates and lose sleep over the question of whether I did the right thing by going with a receiver as the heart of my system ---- especially one without preamp outs to add an amp.

At any rate, let's get back to the issue at hand. I have to be honest: there are moments when I feel like my Onkyo receiver is just pumpin' out plenty of ear splitting audio when playing back a DVD and its subsequent 5.1 soundtrack of some kind --- in fact, it is almost always too loud for the other family members even walking near the home theater room, entering the kitchen, etc; I am usually bombared with yells of "LOWER THAT!" if I'm watching a film with a lot of onscreen action and a kick-ass DTS track or such. And this is coming from a receiver that is ADVERTISED to be "delivering" 80 watts x 6 (well, X 5 in my case) according to my speaker ohm situation-----but we all know how "accurate" that could be.....*rolls eyes*

Still, I cannot help but think, as I scrutinize DVD soundtracks as I listen to them through this Onkyo TX-SR600, that alot of the time, even as I approach high volumes on the receiver's display screen, I COULD in fact be needing or wanting more power --- MOST of the time, the power output (and the receiver is totally calibrated and balanced correctly) for a modern-day action blockbuster seems to be plenty from this receiver --- sure, it's not theater-ear-bleedingly loud, but then again I'm not running three thousand watt per channel amps here-----but there ARE times when I feel like a receiver wasn't the best way to go to fill this home theater listening area; it is a very strange phenomenon that we walk amongst here as enthusiasts, the receiver vs. separates issue: because on one hand, I wanted (as all receiver owners want) the absolute convenience of having all the processors and decoding abilities in one chassis, along with the power to amplify the signals to the speakers-----hence, the decision for the A/V receiver. Yet, I STILL wanted those house-breaking SPL levels during certain films that you never seem to achieve with receivers, especially in the TX-SR600's price range. THEN AGAIN, like I said, MOST of the time, if I get that volume to a comfortable level, this unit SEEMS to be giving off very nice power----nice enough to get members in the household to constantly tell me to lower it when they enter the home theater area.

So is there any final concensus about this? Are receivers "good enough" in some of your opinions for powering a home theater system? Can some of them be considered "just as good" for average HT situations than power amp setups? It is absolutely NECESSARY to have multichannel power amps and pre-pros powering our home theaters or can receivers do it just as well in MOST situations? Your thoughts?

[Jim Clark]

There is no concensus, final or otherwise. People buy within their means a system that meets their needs. As a person's means and needs change, so does the system. I promise that what's good enough for you falls short for me. What's good enough for me falls way short for someone else. Until you can get your brain wrapped around that one single fact you are doomed to ask the same questions over and over again without ever coming up with an answer.

jc

[Lexmark3200]

Outside of Jim's opinion, how does everyone else feel about the receivers vs. separates debate? Are receivers "good enough" for many of you powering HTs? Are separate multichannel amps powering EACH channel of a 5.1 system really necessary?

[GMichael]

Outside of Jim's opinion, how does everyone else feel about the receivers vs. separates debate? Are receivers "good enough" for many of you powering HTs? Are separate multichannel amps powering EACH channel of a 5.1 system really necessary?

Hi Lex,

I think your Onkyo is fine for HT. I don't think seperates are necessary. But, I sure would like them. You would most likely enjoy them too. Are they in your budget?

Think of it this way, is it necessary to drive a Lexus or a BMW etc? I would say no, but I'd take one if given to me. Others may think of them as a step down. It's up to us/you.

Do you like your system?
Do you have any complaints?
How much do these complaints mean to you?
Do you have the money to upgrade?

You don't "need" to upgrade. But we all feel the bug.

[swgiust]

If you use a receiver and have your speakers set up right, you should have a most
excellent home theater sound. All your speakers should be set to small and the
sub woofer cross over between 80-120hz. With this set up, you don't need 100's of
watts of power to produce extreme levels of volume. I would spend more money on
a good subwoofer before I would worry about replacing a receiver that is working fine.

[shokhead]

So that will work with any speaker?

[swgiust]

99% of all the systems you see people have on this site should be set up this
way. Even if you have physically large speakers, doesn't mean they should be
set to large.

[shokhead]

99% of all the systems you see people have on this site should be set up this
way. Even if you have physically large speakers, doesn't mean they should be
set to large.

Really? My x over is at 60.

[L.J.]

99% of all the systems you see people have on this site should be set up this
way. Even if you have physically large speakers, doesn't mean they should be
set to large.

Why? Just curious.

[swgiust]

The first thing you have to realize is that setting a cross over at a certain number does
not eliminate all the sound below that number. For instance, if you set your cross over
at 80hz, this is a roll off point, your speakers may still produce some sound all the way
down to 35 or 40hz.

Second, even if you have tower speakers that are rated down to 35hz, it doesn't mean
they produce good sound all the way down to 35hz.

The same can be said for your sub, just because you set it at 80hz doesnt mean that
it will not produce any sound above that.

So the goal is to have the two sides meet in the middle. this allows your speakers to
produce the sound that they produce best and your sub to do the bottom end work.
It also allows for a receiver of lesser power to not have to worry about producing huge
amounts of bass (which takes up the most energy).

I know of systems, HTIB mostly, that may have cross over settings higher than 120hz,
and some people who have really good tower speakers and the power to drive them,
that have their settings lower than 80. But the vast majority will end up in that 80 to
120hz range.

[GMichael]

The first thing you have to realize is that setting a cross over at a certain number does
not eliminate all the sound below that number. For instance, if you set your cross over
at 80hz, this is a roll off point, your speakers may still produce some sound all the way
down to 35 or 40hz.

Second, even if you have tower speakers that are rated down to 35hz, it doesn't mean
they produce good sound all the way down to 35hz.

The same can be said for your sub, just because you set it at 80hz doesnt mean that
it will not produce any sound above that.

So the goal is to have the two sides meet in the middle. this allows your speakers to
produce the sound that they produce best and your sub to do the bottom end work.
It also allows for a receiver of lesser power to not have to worry about producing huge
amounts of bass (which takes up the most energy).

I know of systems, HTIB mostly, that may have cross over settings higher than 120hz,
and some people who have really good tower speakers and the power to drive them,
that have their settings lower than 80. But the vast majority will end up in that 80 to
120hz range.

I set mine at 60. It seems to make the base sound a little "sharper" or "tighter". Do you think that's OK for my system?

[shokhead]

Why? Just curious.

Because it works better then 80.

[L.J.]

The first thing you have to realize is that setting a cross over at a certain number does
not eliminate all the sound below that number. For instance, if you set your cross over
at 80hz, this is a roll off point, your speakers may still produce some sound all the way
down to 35 or 40hz.

Second, even if you have tower speakers that are rated down to 35hz, it doesn't mean
they produce good sound all the way down to 35hz.

The same can be said for your sub, just because you set it at 80hz doesnt mean that
it will not produce any sound above that.

So the goal is to have the two sides meet in the middle. this allows your speakers to
produce the sound that they produce best and your sub to do the bottom end work.
It also allows for a receiver of lesser power to not have to worry about producing huge
amounts of bass (which takes up the most energy).

I know of systems, HTIB mostly, that may have cross over settings higher than 120hz,
and some people who have really good tower speakers and the power to drive them,
that have their settings lower than 80. But the vast majority will end up in that 80 to
120hz range.

It all makes sense. So what is the best method of reaching this goal? My auto setup on my Denon set all my speakers to large. Is this where an spl meter and test tone disc comes into play? How does one know if 80hz is the magic crossover point?

My current system is:
Energy C-9 towers, C-C1 center, C-R1 surrounds and S12.3 sub. Denon 2805 avr 100wpc.

[shokhead]

A setup disc. Avia is what i used. I do the Auto setup for the EQ but go back and do the speaker setup myself,the long way.

[L.J.]

A setup disc. Avia is what i used. I do the Auto setup for the EQ but go back and do the speaker setup myself,the long way.

I just got DVE in the mail a week ago but I havent gone through it yet. I'm assuming this can be used??

[swgiust]

I set mine at 60. It seems to make the base sound a little "sharper" or "tighter". Do you think that's OK for my system?

With the size of the driver in the Primus speakers, Your setting should be at least
80 if not even higher.

You may feel that the bass is tighter at 60 hz, but it is probably an issue with
how your subwoofer sounds in your room. You may have a peak at 70 or 80hz
which would make your subwoofer sound boomy.

So even though setting your crossover at 60 helps the problem, it's not really
the ideal solution. Working with your sub to get it dialed in will produce a much
better overall sound. Does your sub have the RABOS system?

[GMichael]

RABOS system?
I doubt it. I'll look into it. Thanks.

[Lexmark3200]

"I think your Onkyo is fine for HT. I don't think seperates are necessary."

Hello, G, and as always, thanks for your input! I guess this is what I wanted to know above....but......

"But, I sure would like them. You would most likely enjoy them too. Are they in your budget?"

Right now, no. But I would love to be able to keep my Onkyo as a preamp and add a multichannel, 200 watt per channel power amp to drive the system however my TX-SR600 doesnt have pre-outs.

"Think of it this way, is it necessary to drive a Lexus or a BMW etc? I would say no, but I'd take one if given to me."

Of course. But with audio equipment, Im just wondering if receivers are "okay" to drive an entire HT system as opposed to separates.

"Do you like your system?"

On the whole, yes; it could use some more power sometimes but I LOVE the build quality and FEEL of the controls of this Onkyo; the all-aluminum faceplate is gorgeous in my opinion.

"Do you have any complaints?"

The advertised "80 watts x 6" power output of this unit......sometimes I need to bring the volume of certain DVD soundtracks WAY up beyond "normal" listening levels in order to get really "immersed" in the track, but this could be the way the individual DVD was mastered, as well, I believe.

"How much do these complaints mean to you?"

The power issue means alot----since I can constantly hear our four dogs barking over a film Im watching in surround or when snack bags are rustling in the room by guests or whatever; but that brings us back to the "ambient noise" issue, where is it NORMAL to be able to hear such noises around you in a home theater during quiet and somewhat louder sequences of a DVD soundtrack?

"Do you have the money to upgrade?"

As the new Associate Editor for a magazine, I have supplemented my income now and hopefully will be able to upgrade soon; but the question becomes----do I want to give up that downright convenience that a receiver offers just for separates and more power? I mean, with a receiver, you pretty much plug your speaker wires in, run the digital cable from the DVD player to receiver, calibrate the speakers and go.

"You don't "need" to upgrade. But we all feel the bug."

And thats ANOTHER thing-----if our equipment is a couple of years old already (as my TX-SR600 has been replaced by no less than two models already by Onkyo) does that mean we HAVE to get rid of it if it's doing everything else we want it to do? I mean, this unit decodes ALL the soundtracks I need it to ---- DTS ES, Dolby EX, and includes Pro Logic II steering, so even though its not a BRAND SPANKING NEW unit, does that mean I cannot hold onto it do you think?

Thanks G for this great discussion!

[Lexmark3200]

"If you use a receiver and have your speakers set up right, you should have a most
excellent home theater sound."

Thank you for your thoughts; they have put me at ease a bit!

"All your speakers should be set to small and the
sub woofer cross over between 80-120hz."

Indeed this is EXACTLY how my system is set up. Thank you for the assurance.

"With this set up, you don't need 100's of
watts of power to produce extreme levels of volume. I would spend more money on
a good subwoofer before I would worry about replacing a receiver that is working fine."

Perhaps I shall do that. Thank you again for your great input.

[GMichael]

"I think your Onkyo is fine for HT. I don't think seperates are necessary."

Hello, G, and as always, thanks for your input! I guess this is what I wanted to know above....but......

Anytime

"But, I sure would like them. You would most likely enjoy them too. Are they in your budget?"

Right now, no. But I would love to be able to keep my Onkyo as a preamp and add a multichannel, 200 watt per channel power amp to drive the system however my TX-SR600 doesnt have pre-outs.

Yeah, I remember. Bummer.

"Think of it this way, is it necessary to drive a Lexus or a BMW etc? I would say no, but I'd take one if given to me."

Of course. But with audio equipment, Im just wondering if receivers are "okay" to drive an entire HT system as opposed to separates.

I think so.

"Do you like your system?"

On the whole, yes; it could use some more power sometimes but I LOVE the build quality and FEEL of the controls of this Onkyo; the all-aluminum faceplate is gorgeous in my opinion.

Cool

"Do you have any complaints?"

The advertised "80 watts x 6" power output of this unit......sometimes I need to bring the volume of certain DVD soundtracks WAY up beyond "normal" listening levels in order to get really "immersed" in the track, but this could be the way the individual DVD was mastered, as well, I believe.

I don't see that as bad.

"How much do these complaints mean to you?"

The power issue means alot----since I can constantly hear our four dogs barking over a film Im watching in surround or when snack bags are rustling in the room by guests or whatever; but that brings us back to the "ambient noise" issue, where is it NORMAL to be able to hear such noises around you in a home theater during quiet and somewhat louder sequences of a DVD soundtrack?

Four dogs barking can be very loud. More than you'll hear at most theaters.

"Do you have the money to upgrade?"

As the new Associate Editor for a magazine, I have supplemented my income now and hopefully will be able to upgrade soon; but the question becomes----do I want to give up that downright convenience that a receiver offers just for separates and more power? I mean, with a receiver, you pretty much plug your speaker wires in, run the digital cable from the DVD player to receiver, calibrate the speakers and go.

As NAb pointed out, separates are not as complicated as they sound (no pun). But if you want to stay with a receiver they make some good ones that would be all you need. Let the company pay for it. It's a business expense! Think they'll fall for it?

"You don't "need" to upgrade. But we all feel the bug."

And thats ANOTHER thing-----if our equipment is a couple of years old already (as my TX-SR600 has been replaced by no less than two models already by Onkyo) does that mean we HAVE to get rid of it if it's doing everything else we want it to do? I mean, this unit decodes ALL the soundtracks I need it to ---- DTS ES, Dolby EX, and includes Pro Logic II steering, so even though its not a BRAND SPANKING NEW unit, does that mean I cannot hold onto it do you think?

I think it's fine. But if a new format comes out, your readers may want to hear how they sound. That may have nothing to do with the receiver at this point. But NAb made a good point about that as well. If you have separates then you only need to change your processor. The amps could stay as they are.

Thanks G for this great discussion!

Anytime, hope we both learn from the many knowledgeable people on this forum.

[Lexmark3200]

Anytime

Thank you good friend.

Yeah, I remember. Bummer.

Is there any way around this?

I think so.

Thank you.

I don't see that as bad.

Don't see what as bad----that I need to bring the volume level up?

Four dogs barking can be very loud. More than you'll hear at most theaters.

So, you're saying it would be relatively normal for these to be a distraction?

As NAb pointed out, separates are not as complicated as they sound (no pun). But if you want to stay with a receiver they make some good ones that would be all you need. Let the company pay for it. It's a business expense! Think they'll fall for it?

Thanks for your input on this; I'll try and run the receiver suggestion past my bosses!

I think it's fine. But if a new format comes out, your readers may want to hear how they sound. That may have nothing to do with the receiver at this point. But NAb made a good point about that as well. If you have separates then you only need to change your processor. The amps could stay as they are.

Right; so are you saying that we should only be concerned with the decoding abilities of the receiver and not its AGE per se? It seems like changing a processor every time a new format comes along would be a pain as well, even though the amps would be there. How many more formats are we going to have to worry about on the horizon beyond DTS, DTS ES, Dolby, Dolby EX, etc? Jesus......

[GMichael]

Is there any way around this?

Yeah, I think I saw someone talk about a way a few weeks ago. But they did say that it wasn't a GOOD fix.

I don't see that as bad.

Don't see what as bad----that I need to bring the volume level up?

Right, as long as it's not distorted, no problem.

Four dogs barking can be very loud. More than you'll hear at most theaters.

So, you're saying it would be relatively normal for these to be a distraction?

I would be very distracted, and would most likely hit pause and glare at the dogs.


I think it's fine. But if a new format comes out, your readers may want to hear how they sound. That may have nothing to do with the receiver at this point. But NAb made a good point about that as well. If you have separates then you only need to change your processor. The amps could stay as they are.

Right; so are you saying that we should only be concerned with the decoding abilities of the receiver and not its AGE per se? It seems like changing a processor every time a new format comes along would be a pain as well, even though the amps would be there. How many more formats are we going to have to worry about on the horizon beyond DTS, DTS ES, Dolby, Dolby EX, etc? Jesus

Only time will tell.

Have a good night.

[Lexmark3200]

Yeah, I think I saw someone talk about a way a few weeks ago. But they did say that it wasn't a GOOD fix.

In what way-----that a line converter or something could be used to convert a signal from the receiver to the amp?

Right, as long as it's not distorted, no problem.

Okay.

I would be very distracted, and would most likely hit pause and glare at the dogs.

LOL. But do you think it can be considered NORMAL to be able to hear the dogs barking over a relatively moderately powered system?


Thanks.

[GMichael]

Yeah, I think I saw someone talk about a way a few weeks ago. But they did say that it wasn't a GOOD fix.

In what way-----that a line converter or something could be used to convert a signal from the receiver to the amp?

Yeah, that's the one.


I would be very distracted, and would most likely hit pause and glare at the dogs.

LOL. But do you think it can be considered NORMAL to be able to hear the dogs barking over a relatively moderately powered system?

Normal? I don't have a dog, so no, it wouldn't be normal for me. But yes, if a dog barked in my home it would be heard over most any system not turned up to ear bleeding levels.