Receiver auditioning hints, tips and tricks

[Rich-n-Texas]

Here are the three finalists:

1. Yamaha RX-V1800
2. Denon AVR-2808
3. Pioneer VSX-91TXH

I decided that the all-in-one approach would best suit me mainly because I've only owned receivers, and for me the complication factor is greatly minimalized this way. Call me a mainstream conservative but purchasing separates and/or the more exotic brands are outside of my comfort zone.

The first question I guess would be the final purchase decision. If I end up buying from say, Crutchfield, can I rest assured that if they're a factory authorized dealer that the warranty return/repair process will be handled directly by them and thus making it easier on me, as opposed to buying through Amazon or one of their third party dealers, where I may not necessarily be buying through authorized channels? I don't want to buy from the big box stores because the sales tax is 8.25% here in Colin County.

As far as the auditioning process, what advice can you give me pertaining to what I do when I walk into the Home Theater store? I realize that the chances of being able to listen to the three I'm pondering may be slim, but what I need to know is what do I ask the rep to do for the setup? For example, should I listen to them in Pure Direct mode with no added processing first so I can get a good feel for the amp section's sound reproduction characteristics and then add in decoders and such next?

Speakers: I know I won't be able to listen through Martix 804's, so which ones would compare most closely? I vaguely remember seeing a lot of Klipsch's at the local Best Buy store so if that's what I'm stuck with, which of their models might come close to matching up with mine?

The video processing section, while important isn't really a major concern for me because anything over and above what I have now is just icing on the cake. Truthfully I don't know why anybody would need four HDMI in's anyway, but that's just me. Sound quality from CD's, DVD-A's and (maybe) SACD's is paramount in my decision making process. Two channel audio is what I grew up with, so that has a place in my brain, but surround processing is more important.

So in conclusion, I'd really appreciate some guidance from anyone (and I know there are many here) who have spent time in the audition chambers at the local boutiques. Thanks!


Post Script: If you think this is a good topic, that's fine but please keep your green chicklets to yourself okay?

[basite]

get that remote with you! If it's hard to work with (I.e. lots of menus leading to other submenus, leading to even other sub menus, hidden somewhere), that's a big minor for me.
so check for functionality, also check the amount of options, it can be pretty basic, but be sure all the essential things are there and are easy to access, it needn't be overloaded with options, but they are kinda welcome though...
and sound, of course, your new receiver needs balls, otherwise it will hate your B&W's, so it's good to have the extra power reserve. If it sounds stressed somehow, it's a sign of not being able to handle the low impedences...

and the sound is pretty much subjective, I'd say you'd compare them, and pick what you like the most...

can't say much now, because I'm kinda trying out new cables, and so far I'm pretty impressed, so I gotta go


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Rich-n-Texas]

get that remote with you! If it's hard to work with (I.e. lots of menus leading to other submenus, leading to even other sub menus, hidden somewhere), that's a big minor for me.

Good thinking Bert.

so check for functionality, also check the amount of options, it can be pretty basic, but be sure all the essential things are there and are easy to access, it needn't be overloaded with options, but they are kinda welcome though...

I'll be happy that I'm getting a receiver with OSD. None of the three are short on options; it'll probably take me a year to learn and utilize them all.

and sound, of course, your new receiver needs balls, otherwise it will hate your B&W's, so it's good to have the extra power reserve. If it sounds stressed somehow, it's a sign of not being able to handle the low impedences...

From a high current standpoint, the 1800 fits the bill quite well with 130 watts per channel delivery, and it IS the front runner.

and the sound is pretty much subjective, I'd say you'd compare them, and pick what you like the most...

This is what I'm trying to get advice on. I know that picking a winner is subjective from a sound quality perspective, but I'd like to use a scentific approach that would include something like a checklist so I can be thorough before I decide.

can't say much now, because I'm kinda trying out new cables, and so far I'm pretty impressed, so I gotta go


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Sounds like fun!

[GMichael]

Hey Tex,

I'm sure that you'll be happy with any of these. Happy testing.

I don't know about the others, but the 1800 will let you save 6 different set-ups. I have two that I use most of the time on my 2500. One for TV and movies and one for music.

Good luck.

[L.J.]

Truthfully I don't know why anybody would need four HDMI in's anyway, but that's just me.

I'm using all 3 of mine. PS3, HD-A2 & 2910.

If you can, you should audition at home. I know it's a pain, but spending time with each unit at home is the only true way to determine which one is best for you. Crutchfield has an excellent 30 day return policy. You should be able to pick up all 3 at Magnolia/BB though. Come on, stop being lazy

BTW, you can always pick up a separate amp later on.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I'm using all 3 of mine. PS3, HD-A2 & 2910.

If you can, you should audition at home. I know it's a pain, but spending time with each unit at home is the only true way to determine which one is best for you. Crutchfield has an excellent 30 day return policy. You should be able to pick up all 3 at Magnolia/BB though. Come on, stop being lazy

BTW, you can always pick up a separate amp later on.

I was able to learn a few things about the 1800 on Crutchfield's website from the "Hands-on Research" tab, and I've read here that they also have great tech support in addition to the return policy. Nobody seems to be moving off the current price tag right now but I'd consider purchasing from them by February as long as they're in line with others.

Is the example I gave above the right idea when auditioning, even if I do so at home? Keep in mind that my room desparately needs acoustic treatments before I can really appreciate whatever I bring home.

I know I can buy a separate amp later on but I'm all about instant gratification. I'll give each one a fair shake though.

[L.J.]

I was able to learn a few things about the 1800 on Crutchfield's website from the "Hands-on Research" tab, and I've read here that they also have great tech support in addition to the return policy. Nobody seems to be moving off the current price tag right now but I'd consider purchasing from them by February as long as they're in line with others.

Is the example I gave above the right idea when auditioning, even if I do so at home? Keep in mind that my room desparately needs acoustic treatments before I can really appreciate whatever I bring home.

I know I can buy a separate amp later on but I'm all about instant gratification. I'll give each one a fair shake though.

I went through several units and tried to spend a good amount of time with each one. This gives you plenty of time to listen to a variety of sources and get a "feel" for each one.

[musicman1999]

I would do your audition at home, and i would buy from a B&M store.Have you narrowed it down to these three for sure? Did we talk about Rotel, far better match audio wise.You will often see B&W speakers matched with Rotel, even in both companies adds.If those 3 my choice would be Denon followed by Pioneer.

bill

[musicman1999]

Rich

I checked a couple of reviews on those receivers, the 1800 when all channels are driven will barely output 55 watts per, you should defiantly not consider it high current.The way to tell if it is high current is it will output twice the power into 4 ohms as it will into 8 ohms or very close to it.


bill

[Rich-n-Texas]

According to the manual for the 804's, the "high frequencies are handled by a time aligned, metal-domed tweeter."

This is a good discussion but please, let's not turn it into an argument okay?

[L.J.]

Rich if you look at the 7.8, make sure you can get a return policy. I was gonna audition that unit but could only get it through special order and wouldn't have been able to return it. Last I heard, this unit had the same popping issues as the Onkyo's. Not trying to scare you, just saying make sure you can get a return policy.

Also, you don't have to worry about decoding being done by the AVR unless you want DTSMA. The decoding can be done by the player(TrueHD, DD+, MC PCM) and sent via HDMI or 5.1/7.1 analog. You would loose DTSMA though, since no player is able to decode it yet. Just throwing that out there.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Rich if you look at the 7.8, make sure you can get a return policy. I was gonna audition that unit but could only get it through special order and wouldn't have been able to return it.

I'll look into that L.J. when I get in touch with local dealers. That doesn't sound good on it's surface.

Last I heard, this unit had the same popping issues as the Onkyo's. Not trying to scare you, just saying make sure you can get a return policy.

Makes me wonder how many chunks of Onkyo parts are in the Intergra receivers. I realize that Integra is "the Lexus" of Onkyo.

Also, you don't have to worry about decoding being done by the AVR unless you want DTSMA. The decoding can be done by the player(TrueHD, DD+, MC PCM) and sent via HDMI or 5.1/7.1 analog. You would loose DTSMA though, since no player is able to decode it yet. Just throwing that out there.

Same quality DAC's as in the receivers? The Integra incorporates three TI DSP's. Did you know that Pix?

[pixelthis]

I'll look into that L.J. when I get in touch with local dealers. That doesn't sound good on it's surface.

Makes me wonder how many chunks of Onkyo parts are in the Intergra receivers. I realize that Integra is "the Lexus" of Onkyo.


Same quality DAC's as in the receivers? The Integra incorporates three TI DSP's. Did you know that Pix?

Havent kept up much. But everybody screws up every once in awhile
Reason I extoll the virtues of Integra is three years of troublefree, audiophile quality sound
in my 7.4 (which has 192kh dacs, and its three years old!)
And it decodes MP3, wma, PCM and wave over a cat cable (nettune they called it)
And it has an exelent phono stage.
AND a lot of onkyo is in Integra, I just like the styling better, its more expertly done,
its beer off of the top of the vat.
And aluminum tweeters are considered "soft dome", they are certainly softer than titanium.
Anyway I have just about decided to go ahead with the original plan, and get into seperates by using the Integra as a pre pro for some really good amps.
Integra is one of the few receivers that are really good enough to be seriously considered for pre-pro status.
The most fun of getting new gear is shopping, comparing specs, etc, but I sat down
in my friends audio store and listened to the Integra and I was sold, didnt look at anything else, not even a Marantz that I had listened to previously.
It was "love" at first sight, its just really a refined product, feature laden with none of the crap you dont need

[basite]

And aluminum tweeters are considered "soft dome"

uh
no...

and according to your statement, titaniums are soft domes too, because both beryllium and diamond are harder.

aluminium = metal = hard material.
felt = textile = soft material

got it?

[Mr Peabody]

LJ, did you mean to say the decoded HD audio signal from BR would be passed via HDMI? If so, do you have any links, I'd be interested to see how that works, sincerely. The new HD formats and HDMI is one of the most confusing messes.

Also, this is the first I've heard of any popping issues with Onkyo. Where does this come from? I wonder if it's true or just one of those rumors that gets passed around. A friend of mine bought a 605 and driving Paradigm he hasn't mentioned anything like that. Onkyo/Integra is the closest you will get to a high current amp in the mass market brands. The 605 was wildly popular and Crutchfield is actually sold out of many Onkyo models. Crutchfield is an excellent place to buy. I have only had a couple warranty returns. The times I did they sent me new product with a return label for the problem unit.

Rich the NAD T175 preamp does most everything the receivers you are looking at will do. That paired with the Master series power amp would get those B&W's off the ground and give you imaging. If it's a good sound stage you want and your heart is set on a receiver then you should check out Rotel. For the record nothing Best Buy or any of the big box stores carry will compare, remotely, to your B&W. That NAD Master Series amp weighs 98 lbs. and is a beast.

No, I'm not volunteering to tuck anyone in!

[Rich-n-Texas]

LJ, did you mean to say the decoded HD audio signal from BR would be passed via HDMI? If so, do you have any links, I'd be interested to see how that works, sincerely. The new HD formats and HDMI is one of the most confusing messes.

LOL. Yeah, just ask the guys at Blue Jeans Cable what they think of the HDMI unstandard standard!
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articl...s.htm?hdmidept

Also, this is the first I've heard of any popping issues with Onkyo. Where does this come from? I wonder if it's true or just one of those rumors that gets passed around. A friend of mine bought a 605 and driving Paradigm he hasn't mentioned anything like that. Onkyo/Integra is the closest you will get to a high current amp in the mass market brands. The 605 was wildly popular and Crutchfield is actually sold out of many Onkyo models. Crutchfield is an excellent place to buy. I have only had a couple warranty returns. The times I did they sent me new product with a return label for the problem unit.

L.J. auditioned an 805 at home and experience popping during HDMI handshaking with his ???

Rich the NAD T175 preamp does most everything the receivers you are looking at will do. That paired with the Master series power amp would get those B&W's off the ground and give you imaging. If it's a good sound stage you want and your heart is set on a receiver then you should check out Rotel. For the record nothing Best Buy or any of the big box stores carry will compare, remotely, to your B&W. That NAD Master Series amp weighs 98 lbs. and is a beast.

The NAD T175 is nice, and if you're referring to the Master Series M25 7 channel amp, yes it's a hundred pound beast. It would probably cause a LOT of stress on my u-build-it audio cabinet. The closet NAD dealer is 17 miles and they're an installation firm. Not likely I'd be able to get competitive pricing. Any idea what those two components would run? Audiogon's got a used T175 for $3500. Can't do that!

Oh yeah... more TI DSP's too!

[L.J.]

LJ, did you mean to say the decoded HD audio signal from BR would be passed via HDMI? If so, do you have any links, I'd be interested to see how that works, sincerely. The new HD formats and HDMI is one of the most confusing messes.

Yeah, HDMI is able to carry 8 channels of uncompressed PCM. My PS3 & HD-A2 do not have mc analog out. HDMI is the only way to get HD audio from these units.

From the HD -A3 "5.1-channel Dolby TrueHD available via HDMI output only"

From Dolby:
"Increasingly, A/V processors and receivers are being equipped with IEEE 1394 (FireWire®) or HDMI connections, capable of transporting up to eight channels of 24-bit/96 kHz PCM audio content. If your A/V receiver is equipped with this type of next-generation connection, you should look for a similarly furnished next-generation optical media player. By this method of connection, the mixed PCM signal is transported from the HD player to your A/V receiver, where digital signal processing and bass management can be easily effected."




Doldy also states that the sound quality should be the same either way.

" In the end, the sound quality will be essentially the same as that of audio decoded within the player as PCM signals and transported through a current-generation HDMI connection to the A/V receiver."

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...HD_avrs_1.html

Also, this is the first I've heard of any popping issues with Onkyo. Where does this come from? I wonder if it's true or just one of those rumors that gets passed around. A friend of mine bought a 605 and driving Paradigm he hasn't mentioned anything like that. Onkyo/Integra is the closest you will get to a high current amp in the mass market brands. The 605 was wildly popular and Crutchfield is actually sold out of many Onkyo models. Crutchfield is an excellent place to buy. I have only had a couple warranty returns. The times I did they sent me new product with a return label for the problem unit.

I went through 3 805's and had issues with each one. I finally gave up. Here is a link to a poll at AVS. 29% of the 605/805 have experienced these issues. There are good units out there though and this is why I still recommend them.

Onkyo says this is not a malfuntion and is "normal".
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hlight=popping

I kept up with the Onkyo & Integra threads for a bit and the popping issue has been noted on all models from their new line up. This is from a Integra 9.8 thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=4279

Now some of these thread are 10,000 posts long so I'm not searching through all of them.

[Mr Peabody]

That has to be a misprint, www.spearitsound.com will sell you a T175 new in the box for under $1,800.00, msrp is only $1,999.00. The M25 is the one, the same place has a refurb for $2,299.00. I bought my CJ gear from here, they are good guys.

[GMichael]

That has to be a misprint, www.spearitsound.com will sell you a T175 new in the box for under $1,800.00, msrp is only $1,999.00. The M25 is the one, the same place has a refurb for $2,299.00. I bought my CJ gear from here, they are good guys.

Does that NAD have Dolby TRUE HD and DTS HD Master Audio?

I didn't see them on their list.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I mentioned my maximum $2K budget in the Critique my Layout thread I started but I should've mentioned it here as well. I'm moving my TV & audio equipment to another wall and I'm in the process of ordering installation hardware and acoustic treatments as well.

[Rich-n-Texas]

No it doesn't GM. Not as far as I could tell.

[GMichael]

Bummer.

I'm sure that next year's models will. I'd so love to go with separates, but unless you spend a bundle, you never seem to get the latest and greatest.

Maybe someday.

[Mr Peabody]

http://nadelectronics.com/products/h...d-Preamplifier

It doesn't mention any "HD" processing but there are a couple I wonder what they are, like DTS 24/96, what's the difference between that and regulare DTS, would the 24/96 be for HD? But it does have the 7.1 analog input which is the best and safest way of being sure you are receiving the intended format from the movie. Anyway don't base your purchase on the HD audio stuff via HDMI that doesn't look like it's completely ironed out and I'd hate to see you base a purchase on that to only find it's a useless feature. You all really need to do your research and especially read what the Dolby website says about the HD audio formats and HDMI. I bet there's a lot of people out there using HDMI with BR or HD who think they are getting this great HD sound and they are only getting the core DD or DTS. And, they bought HT gear with the buzz word 1.3 compliant or a list of HD audio which it will decode. Is it dishonest? Well, the receiver may decode it but will it ever see it to decode, that is the question. HDMI has done more to rape the consumer and confuse the issues than anything I have ever seen in my entire time in this hobby.

[GMichael]

http://nadelectronics.com/products/h...d-Preamplifier

It doesn't mention any "HD" processing but there are a couple I wonder what they are, like DTS 24/96, what's the difference between that and regulare DTS, would the 24/96 be for HD? But it does have the 7.1 analog input which is the best and safest way of being sure you are receiving the intended format from the movie. Anyway don't base your purchase on the HD audio stuff via HDMI that doesn't look like it's completely ironed out and I'd hate to see you base a purchase on that to only find it's a useless feature. You all really need to do your research and especially read what the Dolby website says about the HD audio formats and HDMI. I bet there's a lot of people out there using HDMI with BR or HD who think they are getting this great HD sound and they are only getting the core DD or DTS. And, they bought HT gear with the buzz word 1.3 compliant or a list of HD audio which it will decode. Is it dishonest? Well, the receiver may decode it but will it ever see it to decode, that is the question. HDMI has done more to rape the consumer and confuse the issues than anything I have ever seen in my entire time in this hobby.

My PS3 will only output the true Dolby etc formats via HDMI. If I had a BR player with 7.1 analog outputs I could plug it into the receiver I have now and flip it to straight mode. And yeah, that would be better.

[Mr Peabody]

GM, good point, PS3 is only HDMI, I wonder how the HD formats does work with HDMI through the PS3? Does your owners manual specifically say you will receive the HD audio formats? It seems PS3 is an animal to itself from Sony but Sony's receiver's are one of the big ones as far as distorting the truth on what the HDMI will do or limiting the capability of HDMI on their receivers. This generalization may only apply to the lower levels I haven't seen each one. I do remember a thread here as well where some one was complaining about the HDMI ability on their Sony.

I'm only going by what I've read off the Dolby, DTS and some of the HT websites. LJ was up on this as well and may have more info. Sir T has PS3 as well and may know.

If your receiver decodes the HD formats does it display like Tru-HD on your receiver when playing movies on PS3?